Shinji Kagawa

[Gladiator]

When does Kagawa not drift inside? He naturally moves to the more central areas irrespective of the position he starts on the pitch. I haven't seen a game where he has stayed out wide and put in crosses.

well yes but this doesnt mean he's always drifting inside. Depending on the game, his roaming frequency may be a lot or a little.

One issue I've noticed is that when he's on the left, he will drift inside to go look for the ball. Because usually in this scenario Valencia is playing on the right so our attacks are more focused down that side. But we know that Moyes likes his teams to be able to switch play. We saw this at Everton. So now Kagawa is a central position and Carrick switches the ball to the left flank. Usually the player that receives the ball in this situation is Evra. But because Kagawa has already drifted across the pitch, when the switch is made, Evra doesnt have much support on the weakside flank as most of the team's attention has been on the other side of the pitch. This leaves Evra more isolated and leads to scenarios where teams attack down the left side when we give away possession. And in those scenarios Kagawa has to sprint all the way across the pitch just to get back into position.

When Kagawa is on the wing, he's always looking to come inside which is fine except the opposition have already crowded out that space and we dont have numbers in midfield to combat this. Since he's not a good crosser or dribbler, it invariably limits what we can do on that wing in this system. In a different system like Japan's, this wouldn't be an issue because Kagawa would have more passing options in the same area.

The other issue is that when he does drift, he's not really getting the ball so we're not benefiting from this sort of movement. When Mata drifts, more likely than not, he will get the ball and he can help the team maintain possession or open a different angle to attack. The other thing is that Mata loses the ball less than Kagawa in these central areas and this may be why he gets more trust with the ball in these situations.

I wrote all this to delve deeper into the "well kagawa drifts inside" because I think it's worth looking at what's happening when said player drifts.

 

[lysglimt]

I wonder how far up our "biggest transfer flops" Kagawa is at the moment. After almost 2 seasons I can count on one hand matches where he has actually performed something Worth mentioning.

And despite this - everyone ridicules Valencia and Young....

 

[Dirty Schwein]

I wonder how far up our "biggest transfer flops" Kagawa is at the moment. After almost 2 seasons I can count on one hand matches where he has actually performed something Worth mentioning.

And despite this - everyone ridicules Valencia and Young....

I agree with you to an extent but people are more harsh on the olympic body builder/diver combination because those two play in their preferred position yet fail to produce, yet keep getting chances to start. Kagawa on the other hand only gets a handful of appearances and most of them are out of position.

 

[Kag]

He's had plenty of good games. Not brilliant, not shite, but plenty of decent performances and some good moments. For £14 million pound or whatever it was, it's not the end of the world. "Flop" and similar words are generally juvenile. They don't take into account many things, it's just something that the Daily Mail will put in their silly countdowns every few years or so, starting with Veron, another very good player that had some very good moments - it just didn't work out the way we all wanted. The idea that he's performed in only a few games is infact nonsense.

Kagawa is a very good player that may or may not leave at the end of the season. People have differing reasons as to why, or who's fault is which, but he's a very good player, and will prove so throughout the rest of his career. I hope he does, anyway.

 

[limerickcitykid]

I agree with you to an extent but people are more harsh on the olympic body builder/diver combination because those two play in their preferred position yet fail to produce, yet keep getting chances to start. Kagawa on the other hand only gets a handful of appearances and most of them are out of position.

Ok riddle me this. Kagawa has more starts and played more minutes than Ashley Young. Why is Kagawa considered frozen out but Young is a regular?

 

[George Owen]

He's had plenty of good games. Not brilliant, not shite, but plenty of decent performances and some good moments. For £14 million pound or whatever it was, it's not the end of the world. "Flop" and similar words are generally juvenile. They don't take into account many things, it's just something that the Daily Mail will put in their silly countdowns every few years or so, starting with Veron, another very good player that had some very good moments - it just didn't work out the way we all wanted. The idea that he's performed in only a few games is infact nonsense.

Kagawa is a very good player that may or may not leave at the end of the season. People have differing reasons as to why, or who's fault is which, but he's a very good player, and will prove so throughout the rest of his career. I hope he does, anyway.

this.

 

[Nighteyes]

Kagawa has been a flop so far. There are various reasons for that, not all of them his own fault but there's no denying that he's been very disappointing overall and a 'flop'.

 

[Adebesi]

Ok riddle me this. Kagawa has more starts and played more minutes than Ashley Young. Why is Kagawa considered frozen out but Young is a regular?

Has Young been out injured more of that time? i.e. Young has played more as a proportion of his own availability?

That is still a very interesting stat, if true, though. Maybe its also the distribution of the games. Kagawa has essentially been frozen out, suddenly, since Mata arrived. Whereas Young has perhaps had his games spread out more?

Of course the main thing for me is that I think Kagawa is a much better player and we should be playing him more.

 

[George Owen]

Ok riddle me this. Kagawa has more starts and played more minutes than Ashley Young. Why is Kagawa considered frozen out but Young is a regular?

in all competitions for us, Shinji has played 19 games in 2013/14 season. Young has played 23 games...

don't know about the exact minutes, but there u go.

 

[girish]

He's been good when used correctly. Even if you look back to our last game, Our Best chance came from a Kagawa pass to Smalling; And our best move of the game involved Kagawa and Rooney.

 

[Adebesi]

He's been good when used correctly. Even if you look back to our last game, Our Best chance came from a Kagawa pass to Smalling; And our best move of the game involved Kagawa and Rooney.

Definitely. That move with Kagawa and Rooney was fantastic.

 

[Ekeke]

Ok riddle me this. Kagawa has more starts and played more minutes than Ashley Young. Why is Kagawa considered frozen out but Young is a regular?

Because David Moyes prefers an inferior player playing the same way to Kagawa. Young has more pace and has scored more goals recently. Thats it

 

[limerickcitykid]

Has Young been out injured more of that time? i.e. Young has played more as a proportion of his own availability?

That is still a very interesting stat, if true, though. Maybe its also the distribution of the games. Kagawa has essentially been frozen out, suddenly, since Mata arrived. Whereas Young has perhaps had his games spread out more?

Of course the main thing for me is that I think Kagawa is a much better player and we should be playing him more.

Missed about 4-5 games with injury but Kagawa missed a couple with the food poisoning and missed the start due to fatigue with the Confed cup. Maybe but I think it is just another stick to beat Young with and to give Kagawa another excuse. Everyone complains Kagawa never gets a run of matches but he did from the end of October to the start of December.

in all competitions for us, Shinji has played 19 games in 2013/14 season. Young has played 23 games...

don't know about the exact minutes, but there u go.

Young comes off the bench more. Shinji has more starts and played more minutes.

Because David Moyes prefers an inferior player playing the same way to Kagawa. Young has more pace and has scored more goals recently. Thats it

Yet Kagawa has played more so how is it known Moyes massively prefers Young to Kagawa?

 

[Adebesi]

Eating yourself onto the injury table, just another thing Kagawa can do that most mere mortals cant.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Ok riddle me this. Kagawa has more starts and played more minutes than Ashley Young. Why is Kagawa considered frozen out but Young is a regular?

To add to the point others have made, Young always plays on the wing, which I guess is his preferred position? Whereas Kagawa is shuffled around the midfield. Dont get me wrong, I think Kagawa has had some opportunities and hasnt taken them but just trying to see where others may be coming from with their critique of Young over Kagawa.

 

[Mad Winger]

Yet Kagawa has played more

In the Champions League, yes, but not in the league!

Young:
15 games, 9 starts, 741 minutes

Kagawa
9 games, 7 starts, 585 minutes


____________________________________________


But this is far from Moyes' only brain fart. Worse than letting Young and Valencia get more playtime, is the fact that Kagawa has barely been able to touch the AM position, regardless of long-term injuries on RVP and Rooney. Fergie's first choice when Rooney or RVP was out, was always to play Kagawa in the no.10 role, and let the striker who's not injured play up front. And he would never have put Welbeck or Januzaj ahead of Kagawa in the AM position.

It's really a combination of everything. The only place Moyes' hasn't managed to feck things up, is in the CL. But he ruined that quite clearly by benching Kagawa and leaving his only winning model so far. He's a clown, alright...

 

[limerickcitykid]

To add to the point others have made, Young always plays on the wing, which I guess is his preferred position? Whereas Kagawa is shuffled around the midfield. Dont get me wrong, I think Kagawa has had some opportunities and hasnt taken them but just trying to see where others may be coming from with their critique of Young over Kagawa.

It doesn't change the fact Kagawa has played more though which most people on here don't seem to believe.

In the Champions League, yes, but not in the league!

Young:
15 games, 9 starts, 741 minutes

Kagawa
9 games, 7 starts, 585 minutes


____________________________________________


But this is far from Moyes' only brain fart. Worse than letting Young and Valencia get more playtime, is the fact that Kagawa has barely been able to touch the AM position, regardless of long-term injuries on RVP and Rooney. Fergie's first choice when Rooney or RVP was out, was always to play Kagawa in the no.10 role, and let the striker who's not injured play up front. And he would never have put Welbeck or Januzaj ahead of Kagawa in the AM position.

It's really a combination of everything. The only place Moyes' haven't managed to feck things up, is in the CL. But he ruined that quite clearly by benching Kagawa and leaving his only winning model so far. He's a clown, alright...

I'm talking all competitions. You can't just cut it down to league appearances to suit your agenda.

Kagawa has got to play in the AM spot in CL and a few times in the league where he'd switch with Welbeck, Januzaj or Giggs. His position is irrelevant to my point anyway. He has played more than Young yet he is called frozen out and Young is somehow a regular. I'm not saying Moyes is handling him right either but it doesn't change the fact he has played more than Young. I've said in this thread and other threads too that Young and Valencia aren't the same players. You can't just group them together for everything.

 

[Mad Winger]

I'm talking all competitions. You can't just cut it down to league appearances to suit your agenda.

Apart from last game, no one has complained about how Kagawa has been treated in the CL. The PL has always been the focus, and there he has been treated like shit. Horrible man managing by Moyes, not to mention non-sensical. Kagawa has gone from 70-75% starts(when not injured) to 25-30%. To top it off, we're playing shit football that pretty much isolates players like Kagawa. There's no wonder he's not performing as well a he did last season, not to mention for Dortmund and Japan.

Young and Valencia aren't the same players. You can't just group them together for everything.

They're both mediocre wingers who have no place in a starting lineup of a team that boasts Rooney, Kagawa, Januzaj, and now Mata. Minumum 3 out these 4 players should start. This usually means that at the very worst, one spot will be open for Valencia or Young, regardless of which wing we're talking about.

Has there been a single PL or CL game this season were neither Valencia or Young started, and they were both fit to play? I doubt it. How many times have they both started? If it's more than zero, then it's too many times.

 

[Ekeke]

Missed about 4-5 games with injury but Kagawa missed a couple with the food poisoning and missed the start due to fatigue with the Confed cup. Maybe but I think it is just another stick to beat Young with and to give Kagawa another excuse. Everyone complains Kagawa never gets a run of matches but he did from the end of October to the start of December.


Young comes off the bench more. Shinji has more starts and played more minutes.


Yet Kagawa has played more so how is it known Moyes massively prefers Young to Kagawa?

Because Young is picked instead of him. Kagawa gets games when hes rested or has had a knock. Kagawa is always fit, just not picked

If anyone cant see that Young is a favourite of Moyes and Kagawa is not, then thats insane.

 

[Gladiator]

Ok riddle me this. Kagawa has more starts and played more minutes than Ashley Young. Why is Kagawa considered frozen out but Young is a regular?

maybe because he hasn't played in a league match since january

 

[Gladiator]

Missed about 4-5 games with injury but Kagawa missed a couple with the food poisoning and missed the start due to fatigue with the Confed cup. Maybe but I think it is just another stick to beat Young with and to give Kagawa another excuse. Everyone complains Kagawa never gets a run of matches but he did from the end of October to the start of December.

Was this run of games in the 10 position? Because we already know he's not been very good for us on on the left.

EDIT: Looked at appearances for Kagawa and you're right about the run of matches and it's in these matches that showed me, on the left, in this system, Kagawa will continue to disappoint on the left.

It only seems to be when he plays in his natural position, that he's more involved and sees more of the ball. But once again, it strikes me that as a team we are still underperforming even with better players in the team. So while it is true that in these games he's underperforming, but when his teammates are also underperforming isn't this pointing to a larger issue? this is not absolving kagawa of any of his poor or mediocre performances but think the bigger picture is having quite a say on not just kagawa but the whole team

 

[Sky1981]

Good lord.. some of you are fecking blind

You don't need all debates to know that :

1. Kagawa Shits over Young all day of the week, ask any teams around who they'll take among those 2 if both of them are available at the same price
2. Kagawa been played out of positions, try count how many minutes he plays in AM, compared to Young who always gets his natural positions
3. Let's fecking put Young at Central Midfielder, and see how he fares

For crying out loud, stop painting Him as some sort of lazy bugger who can't perform. Moyes is the dumb bugger for failing to know what to do with a player of his calibre. Even Mata is shifted out wide.

 

[Kostur]

Good lord.. some of you are fecking blind

You don't need all debates to know that :

1. Kagawa Shits over Young all day of the week, ask any teams around who they'll take among those 2 if both of them are available at the same price
2. Kagawa been played out of positions, try count how many minutes he plays in AM, compared to Young who always gets his natural positions
3. Let's fecking put Young at Central Midfielder, and see how he fares

For crying out loud, stop painting Him as some sort of lazy bugger who can't perform. Moyes is the dumb bugger for failing to know what to do with a player of his calibre. Even Mata is shifted out wide.

And both of them, Mata and Kagawa, are always shifting inwards and spend most of the time on the pitch around the #10 position, they certainly are not chained to the sideline. They've got very little to do with width which is then provided by our fullbacks.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

There's bit of play in the Olympiacos game where he does a wonderful little turn close to the half way line, plays a one two with Rooney and completely opens their defence up before playing the ball to Evra in acres of space who doesn't get the cross. That's the kind of play most of us talk about as lacking in our play. It's just what we need. That move used our width as well, but it was class play that lead opening up of space of the wide man rather than just brain-less drone-like unimaginative play. We dont even see Mata do enough of that because it's hard to impose that kind of play amidst our current rigid style.

I'd love to see us try Kagawa, Mata and Januzaj just once in behind the main striker. Sadly, I dont see it happening, even when Rooney is rested as he seems to feel we cant do without one of Young or Valencia.

 

[Gladiator]

And both of them, Mata and Kagawa, are always shifting inwards and spend most of the time on the pitch around the #10 position, they certainly are not chained to the sideline. They've got very little to do with width which is then provided by our fullbacks.

If you watch the west brom match at OT where he only got 45 minutes, he was mainly on the left. Mata is less chained to the sideline because while they do drift, Kagawa is a bit more defensive in that he does a good job of restricting the opposition's passing lanes. Believe he puts in more tackles than Mata although he's not really a great tackler.

 

[Shinjisan]

well yes but this doesnt mean he's always drifting inside. Depending on the game, his roaming frequency may be a lot or a little.

One issue I've noticed is that when he's on the left, he will drift inside to go look for the ball. Because usually in this scenario Valencia is playing on the right so our attacks are more focused down that side. But we know that Moyes likes his teams to be able to switch play. We saw this at Everton. So now Kagawa is a central position and Carrick switches the ball to the left flank. Usually the player that receives the ball in this situation is Evra. But because Kagawa has already drifted across the pitch, when the switch is made, Evra doesnt have much support on the weakside flank as most of the team's attention has been on the other side of the pitch. This leaves Evra more isolated and leads to scenarios where teams attack down the left side when we give away possession. And in those scenarios Kagawa has to sprint all the way across the pitch just to get back into position.

When Kagawa is on the wing, he's always looking to come inside which is fine except the opposition have already crowded out that space and we dont have numbers in midfield to combat this. Since he's not a good crosser or dribbler, it invariably limits what we can do on that wing in this system. In a different system like Japan's, this wouldn't be an issue because Kagawa would have more passing options in the same area.

The other issue is that when he does drift, he's not really getting the ball so we're not benefiting from this sort of movement. When Mata drifts, more likely than not, he will get the ball and he can help the team maintain possession or open a different angle to attack. The other thing is that Mata loses the ball less than Kagawa in these central areas and this may be why he gets more trust with the ball in these situations.

I wrote all this to delve deeper into the "well kagawa drifts inside" because I think it's worth looking at what's happening when said player drifts.

Jees! I don't know all this, man. I am a meat and potatoes guy, who likes to the enjoy the sport. Any kind of deep analysis goes over my head.

I used to be an admirer of him at Dortmund and thought he would be a hit. Now, almost 2 years down the line I leaning towards the view that he is a player of a system. By which I mean, a team needs to play a certain style of football for Kagawa to excel. Unlike Rooney or Mata, he is not a great player who is going to adjust to the demands of a team and will make them better. He pretty much needs things to be geared towards him.

When I see him in the league, I see a player who struggles with the pace and the physical demands of it. It is easy to bully him off the ball. He drifts in and out of games and doesn't have the ability to stamp his authority on them. Posters on here make arguments for starting him in the number 10 position but unfortunately Kagawa hasn't made many strong arguments for himself to start over Rooney. A couple of games when we started him at 10, he had to swap positions with Welbeck early in the game as he was constantly getting bullied and losing the ball in the middle.

He is also not a Silva, Mata or Nasri type attacking forward, who can make a difference starting from wide positions. Like you mentioned in second last paragraph of you post. Young or Januzaj are preferred to him on the left due to the formers ability to also track back and help out in the defense or the latter's skills to keep the ball, beat his man and provide width when needed.

I would like for us to keep him and watch him next year when we have improved our midfield and added some pace to it. We will have to wait and watch if that happens. Chances are it will due to the hundreds of commercial deals we have signed with Japanese companies.

 

[Gladiator]

Jees! I don't know all this, man. I am a meat and potatoes guy, who likes to the enjoy the sport. Any kind of deep analysis goes over my head.

I used to be an admirer of him at Dortmund and thought he would be a hit. Now, almost 2 years down the line I leaning towards the view that he is a player of a system. By which I mean, a team needs to play a certain style of football for Kagawa to excel. Unlike Rooney or Mata, he is not a great player who is going to adjust to the demands of a team and will make them better. He pretty much needs things to be geared towards him.

When I see him in the league, I see a player who struggles with the pace and the physical demands of it. It is easy to bully him off the ball. He drifts in and out of games and doesn't have the ability to stamp his authority on them. Posters on here make arguments for starting him in the number 10 position but unfortunately Kagawa hasn't made many strong arguments for himself to start over Rooney. A couple of games when we started him at 10, he had to swap positions with Welbeck early in the game as he was constantly getting bullied and losing the ball in the middle.

He is also not a Silva, Mata or Nasri type attacking forward, who can make a difference starting from wide positions. Like you mentioned in second last paragraph of you post. Young or Januzaj are preferred to him on the left due to the formers ability to also track back and help out in the defense or the latter's skills to keep the ball, beat his man and provide width when needed.

I would like for us to keep him and watch him next year when we have improved our midfield and added some pace to it. We will have to wait and watch if that happens. Chances are it will due to the hundreds of commercial deals we have signed with Japanese companies.

Wait but arent you same guy who argues heavily about the finances in the Bundesliga and what those ramifications mean for teams such as Dortmund and Bayern? Maybe I'm confusing you with another poster. but if you are you've definitely provided some deep analysis there.


On Kagawa as a 10 in the EPL, I think he can certainly perform in that position but as you've also acknowledged, the system more or less needs to suit him. If he was at Arsenal and playing as a 10 or even wide, I think he wouldn't look out of place simply because the way Arsenal plays suits Kagawa's game to a tee imo. The times where he gets bumped off the ball I feel is where he thinks he doesnt have a passing option and is unsure of what to do. He's not a great dribbler so won't really take on players with much conviction of beating them. Also think it's a confidence thing too.

One of the hardest things for some of our fans to accept is as Sphaero put it, Kagawa is a "multiplicator". A player who can help maximise the potential of the team when things are usually going well but much less likely to take the game into his own hands and make a difference when things arent. It seems a lot of us weren't aware that we were getting this type of player nor what it really meant which probably explains our disapointment.

On Young, Kagawa does track back and he can cover the passing lanes well but he is more attack minded than Young and he drifts more which can compromise the shape of the team. Which leads me to another point. We want our attack to be fluid and interchanging but can't you see how that could lead to a state of imbalance in a different way?

Again, I think Kagawa can make a difference starting from wide positions. The issue is our squad is underperforming, the current style doesn't suit him, Rooney plays in Kagawa's natural position, he doesn't have Moyes' confidence and invariably Kagawa's confidence isn't that high either. Not really a great situation for him. The fact that he's hard on himself makes me think back to the berba days. Sometimes when you're too hard on yourself, you can actually do the opposite effect of what you intended: playing better.

To some extent players need the system geared toward them but as it stands, out of our attacking players he looks to be the most system-dependent. For example, if Rooney was constantly played out wide, dont you think his overall performance would be inhibited by this change?

I think even with the players we have now, Kagawa could link up and show his abilities more. I've always felt despite his limitations that he's worth keeping as I see him as the type of footballer who is a step in the right direction for a more progressive approach. We dont need an improved midfield and more pace to see a better Kagawa but it would certainly help.

As far as I know, Kagawa is on his way out of OT unfortunately. If you wish to speak further on that subject, feel free to message me privately.

 

[Shinjisan]

Wait but arent you same guy who argues heavily about the finances in the Bundesliga and what those ramifications mean for teams such as Dortmund and Bayern? Maybe I'm confusing you with another poster. but if you are you've definitely provided some deep analysis there.

Oh you bastard! I was talking about all this technical football malarkey. I feel too much analysis makes me enjoy the game less, may be I don't get it either. Talking about finance is easier for me, and then I like to mess with these annoyingly good German posters and rile them by telling their league is a one team league.

On Kagawa as a 10 in the EPL, I think he can certainly perform in that position but as you've also acknowledged, the system more or less needs to suit him. If he was at Arsenal and playing as a 10 or even wide, I think he wouldn't look out of place simply because the way Arsenal plays suits Kagawa's game to a tee imo. The times where he gets bumped off the ball I feel is where he thinks he doesnt have a passing option and is unsure of what to do. He's not a great dribbler so won't really take on players with much conviction of beating them. Also think it's a confidence thing too.

One of the hardest things for some of our fans to accept is as Sphaero put it, Kagawa is a "multiplicator". A player who can help maximise the potential of the team when things are usually going well but much less likely to take the game into his own hands and make a difference when things arent. It seems a lot of us weren't aware that we were getting this type of player nor what it really meant which probably explains our disapointment.

On Young, Kagawa does track back and he can cover the passing lanes well but he is more attack minded than Young and he drifts more which can compromise the shape of the team. Which leads me to another point. We want our attack to be fluid and interchanging but can't you see how that could lead to a state of imbalance in a different way?

Again, I think Kagawa can make a difference starting from wide positions. The issue is our squad is underperforming, the current style doesn't suit him, Rooney plays in Kagawa's natural position, he doesn't have Moyes' confidence and invariably Kagawa's confidence isn't that high either. Not really a great situation for him. The fact that he's hard on himself makes me think back to the berba days. Sometimes when you're too hard on yourself, you can actually do the opposite effect of what you intended: playing better.

To some extent players need the system geared toward them but as it stands, out of our attacking players he looks to be the most system-dependent. For example, if Rooney was constantly played out wide, dont you think his overall performance would be inhibited by this change?

I think even with the players we have now, Kagawa could link up and show his abilities more. I've always felt despite his limitations that he's worth keeping as I see him as the type of footballer who is a step in the right direction for a more progressive approach. We dont need an improved midfield and more pace to see a better Kagawa but it would certainly help.

As far as I know, Kagawa is on his way out of OT unfortunately. If you wish to speak further on that subject, feel free to message me privately.

I guess in essence we are saying the same thing. The demand to play Kagawa and the following commotion when he is left out are unjustified. His failings are not due to being pigeon-holed on the left or due to Moyes being a barbarian or the modern football spiel that is given. It is a combination of factors most of which are directly related to the player and some due to our ball movement.

Him being the "multiplicator" is quite an apt description really.

 

[Sky1981]

The same reason why RvP is not firing on all cylinders this season, because unless you're Messi/Ronaldo/Maradona type of player who can dribble past players and scores goals on their own, you will at one point need some sort of assistance from your team.

Hence why our players suddenly becomes shit over the course of 7 mths, because the whole tactical (collective understanding) just isn't there. Players like Kagawa / Mata / Xavi/Scholes they will need players to pass the ball to. Many here heralded Scholes as genious, but put him in the championship with mediocre players around him he'll probably struggle to impact (as his pin point crosses are being wasted)

Take a look at Liverpool this season, they won't need more than 1 Suarez to provide the magic, their teams works in cohession and there is tactical plans in how they move as a team, who's doing what and who's covering for whom.

This is something we have been lacking (if it exists in the first place) this season, lack of tactical awareness as "A TEAM".

Kagawa will always looks shite, and Young will do the job, because what Moyes expected is the bare minimum of tactics : No look cross, just cross, cross it and who cares where it goes.

For Passes to be made, although many argues that passing the ball 5 yards is the basic, in high level football, you'll have to coordinate well on who you'll pass to, where you have to move next, who's covering your empty space you vacate and sort.

Hence why there's not many Managers who can create a good pass and move tactics compared to the majority of managers employing defensive, gungho approach, pass wide and cross, hoofball etc.

Pass and Move IMO is actually the pinacle and most complicated of all approach to the game, and definitely not Moyes' forte

 

[Balu]

Talking about finance is easier for me, and then I like to mess with these annoyingly good German posters and rile them by telling their league is a one team league.

Friendship over!!!!

 

[Gladiator]

Oh you bastard! I was talking about all this technical football malarkey. I feel too much analysis makes me enjoy the game less, may be I don't get it either. Talking about finance is easier for me, and then I like to mess with these annoyingly good German posters and rile them by telling their league is a one team league.

ah ha! it is you! lol.

Think overanalysis and overcomplicating simple concepts just to make noise I feel makes the game less. But there's a lot to be gained from tactical analysis imo. But i do notice where sometimes fans go overboard or even myself.

I guess in essence we are saying the same thing. The demand to play Kagawa and the following commotion when he is left out are unjustified. His failings are not due to being pigeon-holed on the left or due to Moyes being a barbarian or the modern football spiel that is given. It is a combination of factors most of which are directly related to the player and some due to our ball movement.

Him being the "multiplicator" is quite an apt description really.

Yes. I see it as this though. Combination of factors related to player, manager, transition from Fergie, existing style of play or lack of it, poor off the ball movement. And I feel some of these factors are also affecting some of our other attacking players.

ultimately, i feel like he's the sort of player we need but we signed him at the wrong time.

 

[Crackers]

Good lord.. some of you are fecking blind

You don't need all debates to know that :

1. Kagawa Shits over Young all day of the week, ask any teams around who they'll take among those 2 if both of them are available at the same price
2. Kagawa been played out of positions, try count how many minutes he plays in AM, compared to Young who always gets his natural positions
3. Let's fecking put Young at Central Midfielder, and see how he fares

For crying out loud, stop painting Him as some sort of lazy bugger who can't perform. Moyes is the dumb bugger for failing to know what to do with a player of his calibre. Even Mata is shifted out wide.

This. Totally agree. Moyes hasn't a clue what to do with all this creative talent, when he's used to hard workers who try to nick a goal.

 

[AngeloHenriquez]

I had posted this in the matchday thread, but it get's swallowed and wanted to know what other's thought, on the idea, not the likeliness of it happening...

I'd perhaps quite like to see a centre pairing of Jones & Kagawa, I realise at first sight, most would baulk at the thought, and understandably, but lets think for a moment about their biggest problems (that I've noticed). With Kagawa it's his ability to drift in and out of games, his talent isn't in question, merely how much he gets involved. With that being said, putting him into the centre of the park would eliminate the need for him to try and be involved as he would see a lot more of the ball and dictate our play. However, tactically I wouldn't trust Kagawa to get back as when the play builds up, he'd have to commit, not always allowing for him to get back, hence the need for Jones. Jones isn't this tackling midfielder (Blossomed by the idea he's a CB playing in midfield), what he is, is an outlet, someone who can do all running, the energy, the pressing... I think he'd compliment Kagawa perfectly, not so much 1 defender + 1 attacker = balance, but more the guile and finesse of Kagawa, backed up by the raw power/energy from Jones to cover/track/press and mark.

Against bigger opposition, where we opt to play a 3 man midfield, I see no reason to mess about either as IMO I would then add Carrick, which I know will raise eyebrows. I'm not saying Carrick isn't one of our best midfielders, as clearly he is. However, for me, his mobility means it can't be Carrick plus one, it needs to be Carrick plus two due to our centre pairings unfortunately. I'd love to see this given a go.

 

[Melvyn]

http://thepeoplesperson.com/2014/03...s-assist-within-eight-minutes-vs-new-zealand/

 

[bosnian_red]

Scored a penalty and got an assist today, delighted for him. He needed a goal more then anyone. Let's hope moyes fecking plays him in the next game so he can build on his good performances for us and this for japan.

 

[rocks13]

Scored a penalty and got an assist today, delighted for him. He needed a goal more then anyone. Let's hope moyes fecking plays him in the next game so he can build on his good performances for us and this for japan.

Yeah, he scored a penalty against New Zealand. What more evidence could Moyes need that he should build a team around this guy?

 

[Gaeilge]

Yeah, he scored a penalty against New Zealand. What more evidence could Moyes need that he should build a team around this guy?

How about the Dortmund legacy/love affair that he has left behind him to join the club? It is a travesty if Kagawa does not go on to boss play at United.

 

[bosnian_red]

Yeah, he scored a penalty against New Zealand. What more evidence could Moyes need that he should build a team around this guy?

You're right, keep playing the same two boring feckers who disappoint virtually every game, and when we lose yet again wonder why things aren't working despite not changing a thing.

Nowhere in my post did I say let's build a team around him. That should be mata for me. However, when we have players like januzaj, mata, Rooney, rvp, intelligent players and very talented players, you play more talented and intelligent players to compliment them and they bring the best out of each other. Not an athlete who runs in straight lines then kicks it as hard as he can in the box, of Ashley young who a mid table player who has a good game every 10 appearances.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Yeah, he scored a penalty against New Zealand. What more evidence could Moyes need that he should build a team around this guy?

That's a strange response to a pretty reasonable post.

 

[rocks13]

You're right, keep playing the same two boring feckers who disappoint virtually every game, and when we lose yet again wonder why things aren't working despite not changing a thing.

Nowhere in my post did I say let's build a team around him. That should be mata for me. However, when we have players like januzaj, mata, Rooney, rvp, intelligent players and very talented players, you play more talented and intelligent players to compliment them and they bring the best out of each other. Not an athlete who runs in straight lines then kicks it as hard as he can in the box, of Ashley young who a mid table player who has a good game every 10 appearances.

Yeah, its much better to bring in an 'exciting' fecker who disappoints virtually every game.