Shinji Kagawa

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Pogue Mahone said:
:lol: quality use of made up stats there.
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Kagawa 2012-2013
Games in the PL: 38
- Games injured/unavailable: somewhere between 12 and 15
= Games available: 23-26

If you divide games started(17) by games available, the result is between 65% and 74%, so my math was only slightly off. 70% is probably the correct number anyways, so my point still stands.


Kagawa 2013-2014
Games so far: 28
- Games injured/unavailable: 2
= Games available: 26

Games started: 7

7/26 = 27%


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Aah, it feels good to be right.
 
Shinji doesn't seem cut out to be a wide player in our current system, and he is never getting that central spot. It's unfortunate for him, but that's life. Still think it was the van Persie signing that all but ruined his chance here.
 
bosnian_red said:
I included all of them last season (even the one's he was rested in, I just added in that point to show Fergie rated him), other then the one's he was out injured for 12 games. This season I ignored the first 4 games, forgot about the overeating thing but that only counts for 1 game really, 2 at most. So okay, 7 starts out of 21 games, up to 33%.

You know you can't just disregard the stats when they prove you wrong, just because you are wrong and don't want to admit it.
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Here's another injury to stick in your equation.

http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...dates-on-robin-van-persie-and-phil-jones.aspx

What's that now? 35%?

I've absolutely no idea what % you could calculate for the other midfielders/strikers in our squad or how they would hold up against the equivalent % from last season and, frankly, I can't be arsed doing the math. There's been a lot more chopping and changing this season, that's for sure. For obvious reasons too.

Anyway, all this nit-picking is missing the main point. Januzaj has been great and worthy of games instead of Kagawa. Valencia and Young have both been more prolific than him. Which is shocking, considering how much criticism they've been getting this season. 0 goals and 0 assists is a woeful return for a player who was signed primarily for his ability to create and score goals. That is, by far, the most likely explanation for him getting picked less frequently this season than last.
 
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KiD MoYeS said:
Shinji doesn't seem cut out to be a wide player in our current system, and he is never getting that central spot. It's unfortunate for him, but that's life. Still think it was the van Persie signing that all but ruined his chance here.
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Yeah I'd agree with this (although as I said before, nobody is really cut out for our current system). The plan was definitely to use Kagawa behind Rooney at first but then Fergie couldn't pass up the chance to sign Robin Van Persie, and who can blame him. He's played decently overall during his time here, contrary to what most people say, and if you want the most out of him, he needs to play through the middle. However, his decent level of play out wide should still be enough to get a lot more chances in the team to prove himself, seeing as nobody else is even playing decently apart from Januzaj (Young is for his level, which is just to be a squad player, he's still crap as a starter).
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Here's another injury to stick in your equation.

http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-F...dates-on-robin-van-persie-and-phil-jones.aspx
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Okay. 7 starts/20 appearances he was fit for = 35%. Real complicated maths right there.

Honestly I'm not even sure what I'm arguing right now because surely nobody thinks that Fergie rated Kagawa as little as Moyes does? It's clear to anyone that Moyes just doesn't like the guy and has no plans to use him, and even if he has a good game you know he won't be playing in the next one.

Anyways, yes Januzaj has been better then pretty much anyone this season. Kagawa is clearly woefully low on confidence and has been unlucky to not have any assists as others have mentioned, he's set up plenty of sitters that have been unbelievably missed. He should be doing better. I'm not arguing that at all. I'm just saying he deserves to be played a lot more then the has because he has the talent to be a good player for us, and its not like Young and Valencia have been so good that you can't drop them. Scoring the odd goal here and there doesn't change that. Should we stick Valencia on the wing permanently because he scored a few tap ins now? Or Young because he scored a few screamers? Young has been decent when he has played too, and even then he's played a lot less then Valencia has.
Seeing as nothing is working, why doesn't Moyes try out playing our talented players at once, rather then persisting with playing the hard working players. He tried it away to Palace and we got a win but then went right back to the norm against Olympiacos.
 
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Kagawa has been unavailable for 8 PL games this season?:lol: Bullshit!

He was "rested" in the beginning of the season because Moyes didn't want to play him. Several reporters have reported that Kagawa was very confused by this treatment, because he felt 100% match fit the entire time.

At the very worst, we're looking at 3 or 4 games that Kagawa has been unavailable for.
 
Kagawa is a luxury player. If the team is doing well and playing football suited to his style he'll look good. If the team isn't doing well he hasn't got the drive or individual brilliance of Rooney or RVP to affect the game.

Still, he's a LOT better than Valencia so it's puzzling why he doesn't start more.
 
Mad Winger said:
Kagawa has been unavailable for 8 PL games this season?:lol: Bullshit!

He was "rested" in the beginning of the season because Moyes didn't want to play him. Several reporters have reported that Kagawa was very confused by this treatment, because he felt 100% match fit the entire time.

At the very worst, we're looking at 3 or 4 games that Kagawa has been unavailable for.
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Even if you include them, and put 2 games for some over eating bullshit, and missing the cardiff game through the knock during his Japan game, he's still only started in just over a third of our premier league games this season. Its not like he's had any truly shocking performances either, just a some quiet ones here and there where you don't notice him, he just keeps it safe, and then gets dropped. Personally, if we had Nani or Young or Valencia all starting and playing very well, keeping them in the team I'd have no problem. The thing is that they're all having poor seasons, and when everyone has been fit on an even slate, he's gone for Young and Valencia, the less talent and more athletic players, rather then Nani and Kagawa. That's the problem I have with this situation. Moyes has just favoured them from the start and Kagawa never had a fair chance.
 
Mad Winger said:
Kagawa 2012-2013
Games in the PL: 38
- Games injured/unavailable: somewhere between 12 and 15
= Games available: 23-26

If you divide games started(17) by games available, the result is between 65% and 74%, so my math was only slightly off. 70% is probably the correct number anyways, so my point still stands.


Kagawa 2013-2014
Games so far: 28
- Games injured/unavailable: 2
= Games available: 26

Games started: 7

7/26 = 27%


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Aah, it feels good to be right.
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Manchester United have played a lot more than 28 games this season and Kagawa has started more than 7.
 
Mad Winger said:
These are the PL stats. You know, the whole point of the discussion?

No one complains about Kagawa's treatment in the CL(apart from last game).
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How would you line up with our current team to create the best performing team?
 
Mad Winger said:
These are the PL stats. You know, the whole point of the discussion?

No one complains about Kagawa's treatment in the CL(apart from last game).
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Why is it just for the league though? Is it because it suits your argument better?
 
acnumber9 said:
Why is it just for the league though? Is it because it suits your argument better?
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It's because the whole argument started for league games, and that's the only thing we're left to compete for. He's played well in the champions league games anyways so I'm not sure what you're getting at.
 
bosnian_red said:
It's because the whole argument started for league games, and that's the only thing we're left to compete for. He's played well in the champions league games anyways so I'm not sure what you're getting at.
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When? I seen people talking about why he isn't picked ahead of Young and Valencia and using stats to show how little Moyes rates him in comparison to Fergie. The first post I seen talking about appearances was Pogue quoting Mad Winger from last season.
 
bosnian_red said:
It's because the whole argument started for league games, and that's the only thing we're left to compete for. He's played well in the champions league games anyways so I'm not sure what you're getting at.
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No it didn't. It started when I posted stats saying he's started 12 games so far this season and 15 by the end of this month, last year.

Those were combined starts from the league and in Europe.
 
acnumber9 said:
When? I seen people talking about why he isn't picked ahead of Young and Valencia and using stats to show how little Moyes rates him in comparison to Fergie. The first post I seen talking about appearances was Pogue quoting Mad Winger from last season.
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Pogue Mahone said:
No it didn't. It started when I posted stats saying he's started 12 games so far this season and 15 by the end of this month, last year.

Those were combined starts from the league and in Europe.
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Guess I just interpreted it as just league games for this season since its not fair to use the cups because all managers treat the cups differently (Fergie used squad players for group stage, Moyes started key players, Fergie started youngsters and squad players for Capital one cup, Moyes the opposite, etc.). Also you have to compare the opposition we've come up against in those cups. It's just easiest to compare just league games.
 
bosnian_red said:
Guess I just interpreted it as just league games for this season since its not fair to use the cups because all managers treat the cups differently (Fergie used squad players for group stage, Moyes started key players, Fergie started youngsters and squad players for Capital one cup, Moyes the opposite, etc.). Also you have to compare the opposition we've come up against in those cups. It's just easiest to compare just league games.
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You yourself mentioned all competitions before yourself and Mad Winger needed to changed up to fit your narrative. We've played Premier League opposition in every domestic cup game so opposition is pretty irrelevant. The fact he has started 15 games when you throw in the other games is it throws off your estimates somewhat. Also if it's believed by management that some players suit different competitions better then they're obviously going to be used more there. When you factor in added competition and the players performance then it's easy to see why he's played less.
 
bosnian_red said:
Guess I just interpreted it as just league games for this season since its not fair to use the cups because all managers treat the cups differently (Fergie used squad players for group stage, Moyes started key players, Fergie started youngsters and squad players for Capital one cup, Moyes the opposite, etc.). Also you have to compare the opposition we've come up against in those cups. It's just easiest to compare just league games.
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It is, if you want biased stats.

I deliberately ignored FA and Carling Cup games as they throw up some weird team selections. The PL and CL games are fixtures where we always field a strong team, though. You do get some players that are European specialists (which is true of Kagawa, this season) but if a manager really is determined to freeze a player out (which is being argued in this thread) then he's not going to pick him in the league or in Europe.

FWIW, I think Moyes should have stuck with Kagawa for the game in Greece and I hope he rectifies that mistake in the home leg.
 
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I think we are getting bogged down in some potentially irrelevant stats here, for as i see it the question isn't whether Young can score the occasional exorcet or Valencia actually avoid the left back, bur rather if they can bring the the stylistic improvements to the team. The answer to which has been a resoundingly negative one for many many months.

Even prior to Mata's signing it would have been perfectly possible for Moyes to attempt a more fluid attacking system albeit with the cooperation of Rooney, it is therefore of great regret that we saw Kagawa singled out for criticism in a fixture as early as West Brom at OT. I would also have to question the notion of Januzaj's emergence carrying a negative impact, indeed were we to deploy him on the right wing the benefits could be felts could be harnessed to an even greater extent i'd argue.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It is, if you want biased stats.

I deliberately ignored FA and Carling Cup games as they throw up some weird team selections. The PL and CL games are fixtures where we always field a strong team, though. You do get some players that are European specialists (which is true of Kagawa, this season) but if a manager really is determined to freeze a player out (which is being argued in this thread) then he's not going to pick him in the league or in Europe.

FWIW, I think Moyes should have stuck with Kagawa for the game in Greece and I hope he rectifies that mistake in the home leg.
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Fair enough. First half of the season I could see why Moyes was using Kagawa as a champions league specialist while I did feel he should still have had more chances to show what he can do in the league. The last 2 months though he's hardly had a sniff anywhere, and it does seem like Moyes is freezing him out. He had a good game vs Swansea, then he had a decent performance in the game against Sunderland in the cup, got subbed off and we didn't seem him until a 10-15 min sub appearance where he again looked pretty good against Olympiacos. The signing of Mata has unfortunately spelled the end of Kagawa at United, which in a way is logical, but a bit sad also when you think about the potential football we could play if all 3 of Mata, Januzaj and Kagawa played together.
 
bosnian_red said:
Fair enough. First half of the season I could see why Moyes was using Kagawa as a champions league specialist while I did feel he should still have had more chances to show what he can do in the league. The last 2 months though he's hardly had a sniff anywhere, and it does seem like Moyes is freezing him out. He had a good game vs Swansea, then he had a decent performance in the game against Sunderland in the cup, got subbed off and we didn't seem him until a 10-15 min sub appearance where he again looked pretty good against Olympiacos. The signing of Mata has unfortunately spelled the end of Kagawa at United, which in a way is logical, but a bit sad also when you think about the potential football we could play if all 3 of Mata, Januzaj and Kagawa played together.
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Yeah, I'd agree with most of that. Although I don't think he was much cop against Sunderland.

It is a pity he's not really built on his occasionally decent performances this season. Especially in Europe, where I think he's been consistently good. His league campaign has been a real dissapointment though. Gone backwards, if anything, from last year when I was really hoping for a big improvement in his second PL season (as you'd expect from most overseas signings) Signing Mata and the emergence of Januzaj has made his future prospects even more bleak.
 
akash02 said:
Kagawa is a luxury player. If the team is doing well and playing football suited to his style he'll look good. If the team isn't doing well he hasn't got the drive or individual brilliance of Rooney or RVP to affect the game.

Still, he's a LOT better than Valencia so it's puzzling why he doesn't start more.
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A team like United can easily accommodate luxury players which is why all the best teams have them.

It was clear fergie rated kagawa highly he talked about how great he will be constantly and generally started when he wasn't injured or just back from international duty. Why is there soo much revisionism just for Moyes sake. He doesn't rare kagawa but anyone saying fergie didn't rate him is just plainly lying for absolutely no reason.
 
bosnian_red said:
Fair enough. First half of the season I could see why Moyes was using Kagawa as a champions league specialist while I did feel he should still have had more chances to show what he can do in the league. The last 2 months though he's hardly had a sniff anywhere, and it does seem like Moyes is freezing him out. He had a good game vs Swansea, then he had a decent performance in the game against Sunderland in the cup, got subbed off and we didn't seem him until a 10-15 min sub appearance where he again looked pretty good against Olympiacos. The signing of Mata has unfortunately spelled the end of Kagawa at United, which in a way is logical, but a bit sad also when you think about the potential football we could play if all 3 of Mata, Januzaj and Kagawa played together.
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For me, I can't see anything other than RVP looking to head away from OT. He came to United to not only win trophies but, to work under SAF.

As you have stated above, I would love to see Januzaj - Kagawa - Mata behind Rooney (with Welbeck in reserve). Have the three of them acting as advanced playmakers/trequartistas, interchanging at will. Maybe I am being a tit but how we have not already employed this is beyond me. All the talk of Gundogan and Koke etc. I would love the likes of Matuidi, Rakitic and Carrick as a midfield two and the three technical boys in front. That would allow us to play some magical ball IMO.
 
akash02 said:
Kagawa is a luxury player. If the team is doing well and playing football suited to his style he'll look good. If the team isn't doing well he hasn't got the drive or individual brilliance of Rooney or RVP to affect the game.

Still, he's a LOT better than Valencia so it's puzzling why he doesn't start more.
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How is he a luxury player if he does as much defensive work as the rest of the players in his position? A luxury player is someone who wont dig in for the team and he has done it as much as the rest. So he's no more of a luxury player than Ashley Young
 
Ekeke said:
How is he a luxury player if he does as much defensive work as the rest of the players in his position? A luxury player is someone who wont dig in for the team and he has done it as much as the rest. So he's no more of a luxury player than Ashley Young
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Well I'd start him ahead of Young as well. I think he should have been a first choice until we signed Mata. Now I'd have him behind Januzaj, Mata and Rooney and maybe even Nani if he can get himself fit and find any sort of form.

I just think he needs to adapt his game to our style until we change it. There's no point in bitching and moaning about our lack of movement and tempo. That's how we play and Kagawa can either try and adapt or leave.
 
Mad Winger said:
------------- DDG -----------
Rafael - Smalling - Vidic - Evra
------ Carrick - Fellaini -------
-- Mata - Kagawa - Januzaj --
----------- Rooney ----------
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What is your reasoning for playing Mata out wide and Kagawa centrally. I prefer it as well as Kagawa and Mata thrives in the same style of football and Mata handles the wide role with less problems.
 
Annahnomoss said:
What is your reasoning for playing Mata out wide and Kagawa centrally. I prefer it as well as Kagawa and Mata thrives in the same style of football and Mata handles the wide role with less problems.
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That lineup doesnt neccesarily have to have Mata and Januzaj sitting out wide. With that setup you can have your width come from Rafael and Evra with Mata and Januzaj's starting positions in possession being 10-15 meters infield.
One of the problems of just displaying formations is that we dont actually define players roles and its a way of thinking thats quite rigid and lacks creativity.
 
Stack said:
That lineup doesnt neccesarily have to have Mata and Januzaj sitting out wide. With that setup you can have your width come from Rafael and Evra with Mata and Januzaj's starting positions in possession being 10-15 meters infield.
One of the problems of just displaying formations is that we dont actually define players roles and its a way of thinking thats quite rigid and lacks creativity.
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I agree with the general problem of formations alone. But I of course got what he meant and how they'd play. The main reason to play two defensively minded midfielders is that you can push up your full-backs much further in the offense to provide the width.
 
rocks13 said:
Cue the standard Shinji excuses - he's played out of position, needs a run of games, its the rest of the team's fault for not adapting to his style of play etc etc
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Played very well in last two game started, then dropped. Cue ignoring of obvious facts.
 
akash02 said:
Well I'd start him ahead of Young as well. I think he should have been a first choice until we signed Mata. Now I'd have him behind Januzaj, Mata and Rooney and maybe even Nani if he can get himself fit and find any sort of form.

I just think he needs to adapt his game to our style until we change it. There's no point in bitching and moaning about our lack of movement and tempo. That's how we play and Kagawa can either try and adapt or leave.
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Like you and I agree, he plays the Ashley Young role better than Ashley Young even in our currently poor system. Whys it bad for him to suggest the system isnt very good though? Its not and I'd rather our players know that and try to break free from it, than give up and accept playing shit football
 
Ekeke said:
Like you and I agree, he plays the Ashley Young role better than Ashley Young even in our currently poor system. Whys it bad for him to suggest the system isnt very good though? Its not and I'd rather our players know that and try to break free from it, than give up and accept playing shit football
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Kagawa did that, and he got benched for ruining moyes tactics
 
Mad Winger said:
------------- DDG -----------
Rafael - Smalling - Vidic - Evra
------ Carrick - Fellaini -------
-- Mata - Kagawa - Januzaj --
----------- Rooney ----------
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I like the look of that team a lot. I do think a fit Nani could add a lot to that team as well since it generally lacks a bit of pace.

The bottom line to me in all of this debate about Kagawa's playing time is that Young and Valencia have been absolutely terrible bar the odd decent appearance by Young. There is no way either of those two should be keeping Kagawa out of the team. Fair enough if he isn't getting starts over Januzaj or Mata, but if it comes down to one of Kagawa, Young, or Valencia I would pick Kagawa every time.

It's almost like Moyes is just trying to go with the safer options, despite them clearly not being that safe of an option when you consider our performances and results this season.
 
gza the genius said:
I like the look of that team a lot. I do think a fit Nani could add a lot to that team as well since it generally lacks a bit of pace.

The bottom line to me in all of this debate about Kagawa's playing time is that Young and Valencia have been absolutely terrible bar the odd decent appearance by Young. There is no way either of those two should be keeping Kagawa out of the team. Fair enough if he isn't getting starts over Januzaj or Mata, but if it comes down to one of Kagawa, Young, or Valencia I would pick Kagawa every time.

It's almost like Moyes is just trying to go with the safer options, despite them clearly not being that safe of an option when you consider our performances and results this season.
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It's stupid isn't it with Young and Valencia. Moyes keeps picking these coruscating wingers with little result, and yet he DOESN'T banish their arses out of the team...
 
Moyes would fine and sub Kagawa for that first pass and assist. Should have gotten it out wide.
 
KiD MoYeS said:
Shinji doesn't seem cut out to be a wide player in our current system, and he is never getting that central spot. It's unfortunate for him, but that's life. Still think it was the van Persie signing that all but ruined his chance here.
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A system that's hardly working nowadays. But apparently to Moyes, Young and Valencia are like Kanchelskis, 90s Giggs, Lee Sharpe, 2003 Ronaldo and David Beckham all rolled into one.
 
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