Friendship over!!!!
First, it is eternal. Good luck trying to end it.
Second, complimented you by calling you annoyingly good.
Third, <3
Shinji Kagawa
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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First, it is eternal. Good luck trying to end it.
Second, complimented you by calling you annoyingly good.
Third, <3
I wasn't making a snide comment at you. More was telling you my inadequacy.
I agree. That is why I find the scapegoating on this forum amusing. Millions of reasons are given for Kagawa's under performances and bucket loads of tears are shed for his plight. Yet, Valencia and Young are abused for giving similar performances. One of their major faults amongst all their deficiencies being that Jurgen Klopp never hugged them and bawled like a little girl for hours. The bias towards the Japanese by the proponents of "modern football" is astonishing.
I didnt think you were making a snide comment. no harm done.
yeah the kagawa debate is becoming more and more tiresome.
I think Young and Valencia get such abuse because we dont see their ceiling as being much higher. From what we've seen from Kagawa at Dortmund, and some games last season (i.e. his performance at West Ham away), there were definitely signs of his quality that we hoped he would build upon. But this multiplicator idea is becoming more and more prevalent isn't it? Because our team isn't performing any better and while he can help drive the team forward, it doesnt look he's at the level yet to inspire the team forward. But maybe it would be different if the team was built around him. who knows. And someone made a really good point earlier in the thread which I think was missed out on. Kagawa's mostly played as an attacking midfielder throughout his career. He came straight from J-League to Dortmund and now here. Compared to players such as Mata, Silva and Ozil who have all had extensive experience playing in an attacking setup as a winger, Kagawa's experience just doesn't compare. And I think this leads to this system dependency. Because I would be willing to guess that even though he can play on the wing, his effectiveness drops as he doesn't really have a lot of experience playing there except for Japan but that's in a system which suits the way he plays so it masks the deficiencies.
With this multiplicator idea in mind, it once again raises the question why Fergie bought him in the first place considering the state of our play and how we like to build up through wide areas. Maybe he wanted to make us more counterattacking with Kagawa being the link between midfield and attack. No idea though.
I think his situation is interesting because this is the first time he's really had to prove himself and it's at one of the biggest clubs in the world. Very different environment from when he had a manager who fully believed in his ability in Klopp. And perhaps on that mental aspect, he's showing that he's not quite up to the task staking his claim in what's been a difficult situation for him.
How did he play for Japan?
@Shinjisan making a separate post because didn't want to lengthen that wall of text. sorry for all my rambling. hope it's not too tedious to read through. Guess ultimately what I find interesting about kagawa signing is when players come in from other leagues, we are inclined to adhere to the positive aspects of those players' games to the extent that sometimes we make false expectations of those players. Let's be honest, the papers dont really help us get a full picture of what these players are really like so if you dont watch other leagues, you dont have that much to go off of. But nonetheless, it intrigues me because I feel a similar attitude is developing towards Ozil as well. The absence of having a balanced sense of a player can really lead to the situations we are seeing in this thread and others.
I don't think either of three is a first choice Manchester United player. A first team player should perform independent of a system or a style of play. He should have the mental, physical and technical skills to adjust to different team-mates, opposition and situations. You cannot have players so rigid to only be able perform in certain tailor made situations. I remember a time, not this site, when the combination of Nani and Valencia were considered the best winger tango in the world. Now according to different posters, they should be stood against a wall and shot. How times have changed, huh? Kagawa gets the benefit of doubt by the virtue of not playing.
We have played him as an attacking midfielder too. Not centrally but as a wide attacker. A Dortmund supporter could correct me if I am mistaken, but I vaguely remember watching Kagawa play on the left when both him and Gotze were fit for BVB. At least they were constantly interchanging. So, the position is not entirely new to him. I do not consider Mata, Silva etc. as traditional wingers. They were/are used as wide attackers in similar role albeit with a different skill-set. As much as our team is not geared towards Kagawa, he too hasn't been able to adjust to our team and needs.
Possibly Sir Alex bought him for the reasons you mentioned. He then didn't buy a midfielder and got Van Persie, not the nimblest of strikers. So, who knows...
I would give Kagawa another season with the changes the manager will bring as pointed. Though if there is a chance we can swap him for Rues, I think we should bite BVB's hands off.
I couldn't agree more.
Made an assist with a long through ball to the striker from just inside the opposition half (naughty naughty, should have pumped it out wide ala Moysieball), and scored a penalty (pity he was subbed in the Sunderland game when we needed an actual penalty taker).
A few points.
1) Your description of first team player is a bit too idealistic imo because while they should be flexible, over time players become more refined and imo less flexible. Plus, not every first team player at Manchester United will be so tactically flexible. This affects how they will perform in a certain system or style of play no matter how good they are. If the system is overall inhibiting then it will be difficult for even the best players in the club who can be identified as system-independent as well as other traits, to perform at the required level.while they should be flexible, it's the responsible of the manager to find a setup which suits the players he has at his disposal.
2) You have to associate the system with the position. Even if Kagawa was on the left for BVB (dont know timeframe), he was playing in a system which suited the way he plays. There are different requirements here. The position isn't entirely new for him but he's had much more experience as a 10 than on the wing and it shows.
3) I was not mentioning Mata Silva, as traditional wingers but more of the modern winger type. There are many names for this. THat's how they started out their careers if I'm not mistaken and this is the distinction I'm making between them and Kagawa. Kagawa is showing more and more that he's a pure playmaker and that's a blessing and a curse.
4) It's a two-way street. Our current system isn't geared towards Kagawa but I dont see how he's going to adjust with the way we've been playing. I've said it before but the sooner we realise he's not the answer to our problems, the better. He's a piece of the puzzle imo that could be very helpful in moving this team to a more progressive style of play. Him adjusting to our team is also linked with the team adjusting to him. Somehow the latter becomes interpreted as "you think we must build the team around him". I think our club has a long way to go because when SAF mentioned how many months it took just for our players to spot RVP's runs last season, I found that a bit worrying.
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Can we justify changing our system to better suit Kagawa, when we are playing so well?
Should we, is a more dividing question. For me, the answer is yes, it's worth trying.
Should we, is a more dividing question. For me, the answer is yes, it's worth trying.
And also we're not changing the tactics just to better suit Kagawa, but we could also said that playing Kagawa as a number 10 would be better to the team as a whole. I think Rooney as a central striker, and flanked by Nani/Mata/Januzaj could do wonders for our attack.Can we justify changing our system to better suit Kagawa, when we are playing so well?
Should we, is a more dividing question. For me, the answer is yes, it's worth trying.
The "tactics" don't matter. It's the off the ball movement that does, something our coaches have yet to rectify. Kagawa, or Mata, or whoever, can play off the left, rotate, play wherever they want, it doesn't count for anything when there is nothing in way of clever passing plays, the majority of which stems from work achieved on the training field.
Tactics can incorporate better off the ball movement and facilitate it. If Moyes tells his players to hold a rigid setup bar for one or two player then yeah we're not gonna see any exciting movement.
And this includes the midfield running too not just the forwards...we are a long way off proper attacking football. it wouldn't be so bad if we could defend too but we can't. Kagawa will do very well somewhere else, but i don't see our current coaching staff using him properly for the forseeable future.
Highlights from his match for japan. Apart from his goal and assist he was great
They way he won that penalty was smooth as feck! Nutmeg, followed by a Zidane turn!
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His pass to Honda at 5:37 couldn't have been struck better! Perfect way to start a counter attack... I miss seeing us do that
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Someone's going to "tell" Moyes he's a good player again
I wish we had a player like that. We should sign him.
But the team has it's limitations. We have an ageing defence and not the best midfield. Set-up's also depends on the personnel available. You cannot expect a Vidic or Rio to play high up the pitch or expect Carrick to add 10miles/hr to his speed. As observers, can we exactly discern how much of that inhibition is due to the style and how much due to the players?
You are not incorrect when you say that I am talking about a "perfect" first XI. It's not a demand but a hope. A club that has marvelled itself on it's wide players and attacking displays need better quality in the area, imo. It will still be a squad game, and I am not asking for XI world class players but I am in couple of critical areas of the pitch.
Question - Do you think he has shown enough to dislodge Rooney from that 10 position? If you had a choice between Mata or him, who would should start at 10? Can we accept that Kagawa has shown him to be top class with in a system and is vulnerable independent of it?
I don't agree. So far Kagawa has only shown glimpses of his quality in a United shirt. Neither has be made a case of himself as a play-maker nor a more "modern" winger type.
Only some "expert" United fans believe that he is solution to our problems. May be the money men, who signed all those Japanese commercial deals. Don't think the manager or his team are pinning their hopes on him to succeed.
He could be a player who excels in a more fast paced, one touch system. Don't think he is any special piece of the puzzle. A more mobile, dynamic/creative CM and better defence are more important requirements.
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I would be highly surprised if he stars against WBA.
Shame he won't be involved tonight, he was very good during the week.
Shame he's hardly ever involved...
Wish we would get him more game time. Almost certainly won't be involved today and I'm sure it'll be blamed on the large amount of travelling.
To be fair, Fergie or any other manager probably wouldn't use him after a trip like that when you have fresh options.
well we can see the results and while there are many factors at the end of the day, that's what he's going to be judged on. I was making a general point with what i said above. So our squad does have limitiations but moyes should be getting more out of the players than what we're currently seeing. we dont even play vidic or rio that much. what team does not have limitations? the question is what the manager is doing to maximise what he has
hmm loaded question. So far not really but in the purest sense, Kagawa is a better 10 than rooney so that goes back to the manager and how he wishes to setup the team. I would use Kagawa as a 10 because it's not only his natural position but he wont excel in the wide areas in our current system while Mata could handle it. Plus Kagawa is a more balanced 10 imo than Mata. We saw how Mata struggled at Chelsea when the system wasn't necessarily built around him.
Perhaps you dont understand what i mean by playmaker. The same happens with Ozil. If the team in general is not playing well, he's not going to suddenly lift the team through a moment of individual brilliance. He can do it but most of the time he hasn't really shown that. Essentially he's not a matchwinner but playmakers dont need to be. With Silva and mata we see a hybrid of modern winger and playmaker where at City and now here at United, the system is built with them in mind and allows them to get on the ball and try to dictate play.
Kagawa hasn't shown that same level at United but I don't see how he's not a playmaker. The thing is he's not really adapted to our system and we've not really adapted much to him. That's not suitable for any playmaker. Players like Mata, Silva however I think are more adaptable because of their experience,skills and footballing education such that they can do a competent job anywhere across the front in most systems (that's an assumption btw lol). But if the system were not built with their game taken into account, i think they too would also struggle. And like mata showed when mourinho took over, he struggled to adapt to that system.
yeah cant really argue with that. we need a CM regardless but just making the argument in a more progressive style, shinji would more likely be apart of that setup than not.
Kagawa won't get praise for the third goal because he hardly did anything but if it weren't for his safe pass and move into space offering the short option and so a link through which we had the option to play it short, then it is likely at the early stages of the move we would have played a longer ball and such a move would never come to fruition.
Kagawa will leave and flourish elsewhere. It is too bad Moyes failed to see how effective he could have been, even if inferior to Rooney or RVP, the team probably benefits with him playing because he continuously offers the simple short option.
Kagawa will leave and flourish elsewhere. It is too bad Moyes failed to see how effective he could have been, even if inferior to Rooney or RVP, the team probably benefits with him playing because he continuously offers the simple short option.
It must be a coincidence that Kagawa was on the pitch for the best team goal we've scored this season. It must be...
Mata-Rooney-Kagawa. Makes so much sense.
Would love to see that more often
Yep. Kagawa magically made Fellaini, Rooney and Welbeck so much more composed. He's such a little magician.
He's on the same wavelength as Rooney and Mata. He really should play a lot more. Made more fluid a passing game which got better with Welbeck's sub
Don't see it at all with him. Can't see how we're praising the last goal on him.
You'd rather we played someone who blindly crosses the ball in?
It's like unless he scores a hatrick, he can't be deserving of any praise.
Tbh I thought he was poor when he came on. Still getting caught in possession and making the wrong decisions. Could be just rusty.
Made the short passing / needed movement for the goal, if we've had some rubbish winger there it would've ended with a long ball switch to the wing and we wouldn't have scored shit.
But he come on gave the ball away for his first pass, got muscled off the ball for the next and didn't really do anything after that.
But it was nothing to do with him was it? It was Welbeck's movement and Fellaini's one touch passing that was invovled.
He was alright but I wouldn't be surprised if his fanbois (hundreds of them in the newbie section in comparison to the mains) would think he "changed" the game.
He helped with the passing rhythm.
He helped with the passing rhythm.
There's something very 'sexy' in the way he plays. Almost scholes like in the sense that he knows what he wants to do before the ball gets to him. Mata has that about him as well.
I think this is what draws people in with him. He is obviously very talented. However when he's going over 500 minutes without creating a goalscoring chance as he had earlier in the season, and no assists/goals all years then I'm sorry but he's had an awful year.
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