Shinji Kagawa
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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It's bewildering how Welbeck's poor performances on the wing are excused because he's played out of position, while...
Welbeck is a striker and being asked to play left wing does him no favours at all. Kagawa is an attacking midfielder who like most of the modern day AM's has been asked to drift in from the wings and not play as out and winger. Very poor excuse.
He'll never play through the middle and rightly so. His only way into the team is down the left and if he can't be effective from that position we might as well get rid of him.
He'll never play through the middle and rightly so. His only way into the team is down the left and if he can't be effective from that position we might as well get rid of him.
Welbeck has had some very good performances in his preferred position.
So has Kagawa.
Which games would you say are Kagawas best this season?
They're both good players and ideally, both will play a big part in our team/squad in the future. They play the kind of football we really need to produce on a regular basis, and I don't think that's debatable. The pair of them are warranted leniency, from me at least.
Retarded reasoning. You could just admit you're applying different standards just for the fun of it, and end the discussion. Not justify it through some weird rationale.
Kagawa on the left is required to hold our shape. He has shown flashes of quality, but nothing near his performances for Dortmund or Japan where he was granted a freer role.
Yeah would love them both to kick on. For me Welbeck has to start though as he's bang in form.
Yup. I'd start Welbeck up top against Liverpool given the choice.
For Kagawa I think he deserves a cameo of solid appearances. 30 minutes here, 20 minutes there. Give him an opportunity to "get used to the physicality" of the league.
More excuses.
There are loads of AM's far more effective than Kagawa playing from the wings. He's the only one who needs to be played only through the middle not that he's been great there either.
Thats sort of my point. To go with 3 players would like to play close to a striker is foolish, we will make the middle of the park too congested and RvPs comments about players playing in his position will be all the more evident.
I think most will agree that Palace and yesterday is the benchmark of what we can achieve and in both games we had at least one of the three providing real width with both Rooney and Mata playing close to RvP. Thats why i believe Kagawa has to be on for one of Rooney and Mata, as he likes to cut inside too.
I really dont like this reasoning and i think its excuses like that why some people here would rather blame the players than the manager, every player is different. Take Hazard i think if you put him as either a winger or behind a striker he would shine brighter than Kagawa - does that mean we shouldnt play the player?
How about realise his limitations as a player and acknowledge it doesnt work for him on a wing and try to find a position he can play effectively
Just because they're effective from the wings doesn't mean he's guaranteed to be. While I agree he's more likely to be good on the wing than Welbeck, it still doesn't hide that he's spent a lot of his time here forced out of position.
He really needs a proper run of games centrally to be judged properly for us, but the problem is that Rooney and Mata are obviously better footballer's, so he's very unlikely to get more than the occasional game or two there. I do agree though that while he's shown flashes of his clear technical ability, he hasn't really impressed in general. Whether that's because he's not had a consistent run or not though I'm not sure.
I have absolutely no interest in how Kagawa does for Dortmund or Japan. Has nothing to do with United.
Although if he's performing better for Japan and previously Dortmund in a central role, would that not then indicate that his poorer performances for us are actually due to him being played out of position, as opposed to him not being good enough?
Or does it prove that he is better when playing in a lower standard of football?
Hazard would walk into our team on the left so I'm not sure what your point is there.
I am not blaming him. Both Rooney and Mata are better players so unless he can find a way to be a success on the left we should sell him for his own good if nothing else.
Dortmund are not a lower standard of football than us. What it indicates is that he plays better in a system that encourages quick passing and movement, not our age old "get it out to the wings" play. It's in our interest to get the best out of him because he is a better player than Young or Valencia. We have tried and tried with the width approach and we have failed miserably this year. Now is the time to try something different and let's see if putting him next to Mata and dropping one of Rooney or RVP improves our play.
Can some people really not see how poor a football team we have become? The last time we have ever looked like a really top side is when Nani and Valencia were performing to a really high level. Them days are looking like they have passed so we have to evolve or else be left behind.
I do think he can make it work from the left. He's got the talent and intelligence to do it. What he needs is a consistent run of games which he hasn't got (for one reason or another) and with the options we have now in the attacking areas he needs to maintain a high level to get games even on the left.
I wouldn't say playing for Dortmund is a lower level than us at all.
I'd like to think so, but he's unfortunately shown very little to actually indicate he's good enough to maintain form on the wing. And with Moyes' often intent focus on crossing when Kagawa would tend to drift inside, I'm not sure that it'll work for him. In a varied 4-3-3, he could maybe do it, but if we play a more rigid 4-4-2 then I can't see it working for him.
The point is: we can all say "well other AMs dont look so bad playing on the wing" but it doesnt mean Kagawa's a bad player because of it.
Why not give him a run in his preferred position before we "black list" him
Good post.
I've not said he's a bad player, just not very versatile.
Because we've got Rooney and Mata who are both players there.
Which of those teams play our style of football with players so far apart and focus on getting it out wide rather than providing the guy on the ball many short passing options? You want to play this brainless donkey football, then Ashley Young is your man by all means. But kagawa is a far better footballer. He's having a poor season of course, there's no getting around that but I'm confident that well see how good he is pretty soon, either if we start adapting a more progressive style or at another club.
I hope he stays. He's almost the ideal player for he kind of football I want to see us play. But I'm not sure that's even close the kind of football Moyes wants to see us play. Shame.
Dortmund play a much better style of football, are a better team then us currently, and overall league wise it's a pretty similar standard. Considering he was a key part of the team who won back to back league titles recently, winning the double in the second season ahead of Bayern, I'd say he's shown he's a very good player, wouldn't you? His current struggles at United are clearly down to our shit style of play and him not fitting us at all because of our lack of off the ball movement and how slow we are passing it around.Quoted for lolquotient.
I know it's "in" to love the Bundesliga, but we can all see that the standard in that league is nowhere near the Prem right?
It's not the first time someone from that league has shone at other clubs. See that lad Liverpool loaned for an example.
It's not the first time someone from that league has shone at other clubs. See that lad Liverpool loaned for an example.
None of it is the players fault?
How do you know that is not how Moyes wants us to play?
Times when hes played in the middle i think hes been very lively and we look creative through the middle. Rooneys hardly going to be dropped but Matas form since coming to us has been very erratic, and i put a lot of it down to getting to know his new team mates but while hes making that transition why not give Kagawa a run?
Lord knows he'd be better than Rooney was yesterday!
He was a lot worse against both Everton and Tottenham.
If a player is so completely reliant on the players and the system then he needs to have a look at himself.
There's no doubt that the way we have played this season is not very conducive to Kagawa's style of football but that still does not excuse the number of times he completely goes missing in games. He needs to exert more influence on games no matter what the system.
Right now he isn't good enough to start for us and is not doing much to stake his claim either.
If Mata was rested even then Kagawa would still be playing from the flanks and Mata has still been better than Kagawa.
Rooney is lot better than Kagawa which is he'll always start ahead of him.
Totally, would he not have been a professional footballer in other eras if he is so dependent on one style of play?
I don't. That's why I said "I'm not sure". Based on the football we've seen this season alone, he doesn't seem to want us to play that way. Hopefully he actually does and we've not seen it yet.
I see the latest accusation against him is that he came to United from a lower standard of football.
Considering the performance from that team in yellow, I can only imagine the team in red would finish mid-table in the premier league.
That I believe was the last game he played for Dortmund.
Considering the performance from that team in yellow, I can only imagine the team in red would finish mid-table in the premier league.
That I believe was the last game he played for Dortmund.
I don't think you can say its not Kagawa's fault, he undoubtedly could do more to have a bigger impact in games and certainly hasn't quite adapted to the more physical nature of the league. But like I've said before I don't think you can look over the fact he's not played in his favored role.
I think there's more to it then saying other players of a similar ilk play wide for their clubs because there's clearly different ways you can set up that impacts how that wide person plays. Kagawa has had most his time where the person on the other flank is valencia/Young. Valencia as he is now is not someone who is gonna fit in well with Kagawa, if Kagawa comes central Valencia is not gonna offer the type of movement to give him the passing options or open things up. Young could do it but its not his primary way of playing. Likewise with Rooney we've seen how he's played quite high which makes it hard for someone to come in centrally and impact, but also the way he wants to play hasn't quite fit in with Kagawa, Rooney wants to knock it wide, Kagawa wants to come central. We've also seen lots of Welbeck playing slightly behind RVP which again is not the ideal sort of player to bring in players from wide.
I mean for example I don't think if Kagawa was playing at say Arsenal he would struggle starting from a wide spot. As I said I think the way the team has set up as well hasn't been good for him as well as his own problems. With Mata/Januzaj being the players of choice at the moment then I think we will naturally move towards an approach that would more suit Kagawa and we saw that against West Brom. It didn't come off all the time but you could see Mata coming inside and have the option of Januzaj making a run inside for him to pick up, that's the sort of options Kagawa needs. The main thing we need to do now is get it clicking a bit better centrally which for me centers around Rooney playing as he did for the third goal, coming deep and working it shorter rather than looking immediately for the wide pass.
In that sort of set up I think Kagawa can flourish and hopefully Moyes's comments mean that he will be given a chance with those players and with that freedom. Its been a rough second season for him but hopefully hes got at least another season to show what he can bring before we think about moving him on.
I think there's more to it then saying other players of a similar ilk play wide for their clubs because there's clearly different ways you can set up that impacts how that wide person plays. Kagawa has had most his time where the person on the other flank is valencia/Young. Valencia as he is now is not someone who is gonna fit in well with Kagawa, if Kagawa comes central Valencia is not gonna offer the type of movement to give him the passing options or open things up. Young could do it but its not his primary way of playing. Likewise with Rooney we've seen how he's played quite high which makes it hard for someone to come in centrally and impact, but also the way he wants to play hasn't quite fit in with Kagawa, Rooney wants to knock it wide, Kagawa wants to come central. We've also seen lots of Welbeck playing slightly behind RVP which again is not the ideal sort of player to bring in players from wide.
I mean for example I don't think if Kagawa was playing at say Arsenal he would struggle starting from a wide spot. As I said I think the way the team has set up as well hasn't been good for him as well as his own problems. With Mata/Januzaj being the players of choice at the moment then I think we will naturally move towards an approach that would more suit Kagawa and we saw that against West Brom. It didn't come off all the time but you could see Mata coming inside and have the option of Januzaj making a run inside for him to pick up, that's the sort of options Kagawa needs. The main thing we need to do now is get it clicking a bit better centrally which for me centers around Rooney playing as he did for the third goal, coming deep and working it shorter rather than looking immediately for the wide pass.
In that sort of set up I think Kagawa can flourish and hopefully Moyes's comments mean that he will be given a chance with those players and with that freedom. Its been a rough second season for him but hopefully hes got at least another season to show what he can bring before we think about moving him on.
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