Shinji Kagawa

[Mad Winger]

Talk about missing the point. I never said he wasn't good enough for us, obviously he is, difference is that Klopp built his entire team around him to suit him at Dortmund, that simply won't happen here, it was never likely to happen here, and he needs to start showing how good he is in a system that isn't build to suit his every need.

The team wasn't built around him. The style just suited him.

With Kuba/Grosskreutz making lungbusting runs to his left, Götze being Götze to his right, Gündogan joining in on all the attacks and Lewandowski being extremely dynamic as well, there's no wonder Kagawa excelled. He constantly had passing options and players stretching the defense for him. All attacking midfielders would benefit from such a style and system. It just so happens that Kagawa benedits especially much. And it's easy to see why! He's not very quick, he's not a dribbler, and he doesn't have a great longshot. What he has, is insane stamina, intelligence, technique and two-footedness. When you play like Dortmund(which in my opinion is the best type football there is. Very similar to prime United, with slightly less width), all of Kagawa's qualities shine in the no.10 role.

 

[Timdbro]

So many posters get it in their heads that everyone's a 'fanboy', that there's actually quite a reactionary section here who very happily slates him whenever he play poorly. How many other players' threads are on the front page of the caf, bumped by posts saying we should 'sell', 'get rid', 'would be happy to get 1€', all on the back of yesterday's match where the whole team was dogshite?

 

[Cina]

I think that the focals points of their attacks were, in that order, Lewandowski, Gotze and Kuba-Kagawa on the same level.

Really? For me Gotze really never hit his stride fully until after Kagawa actually left, probably a discussion for somewhere else, though.

 

[JPRouve]

Really? For me Gotze really never hit his stride fully until after Kagawa actually left, probably a discussion for somewhere else, though.

Kagawa played well in his last season for Dortmund because Gotze was injured, that allowed him to play Gotze role.

Edit: if i remember well.

 

[Cina]

The team wasn't built around him. The style just suited him.

With Kuba/Grosskreutz making lungbusting runs to his left, Götze being Götze to his right, Gündogan joining in on all the attacks and Lewandowski being extremely dynamic as well, there's no wonder Kagawa excelled. He constantly had passing options and players stretching the defense for him. All attacking midfielders would benefit from such a style and system. It just so happens that Kagawa benedits especially much. And it's easy to see why! He's not very quick, he's not a dribbler, and he doesn't have a great longshot. What he has, is insane stamina, intelligence, technique and two-footedness. When you play like Dortmund(which in my opinion is the best type football there is. Very similar to prime United, with slightly less width), all of Kagawa's qualities shine in the no.10 role.

Yeah I get it MW, he was great for Dortmund, we all saw that, we've all repeatedly heard you whack it home into us for the last two years. Shinji was a great player who excelled in a particular system at Dortmund.

Slight problem, we're not Dortmund, we don't have Klopp (who that style is quite unique to) and therefore he needs to adapt his game in order to succeed here. It's that simple really, clamour on all you want about how great he was in that particular system, it won't change the fact that we're very unlikely to actually play like that here.

 

[Mad Winger]

I won't debate about whether Kagawa is good enough or not with you because obviously you have a strong opinion on that and it's fair enough. I think stuff like that isn't really right though. Sometimes a player doesn't work out and it's not the clubs fault, it's not thep layers either it's just the way it will be. There's plenty of premier league flops. I'm sure Kagawa was good at Dortmund and he's shown it in glimpses at United. If we were to get rid of him tomorrow though I don't think it's this big tragedy of Man Utd and a "loser mentality" it just means the club feels that another player coming in would be more impactful, there's more than just 1 way of playing football.

This is fair enough. And I agree, it wouldn't be a tragedy if Kagawa left. But it would go down as an embarrassing failure from our part, and neutrals would definitely blame Moyes and our crappy football for not being able to implement a positive player like Kagawa. The fact that he plays better for Japan, despite also playing out of position there, goes to show how much it positive football matters for catalysts. Japan is not a better team than United, but they play fluid, risky, attacking football. They know that they are volnurable on the counter, but they just don't care. In order to implement players like Kagawa and Honda, they need to play like this. Otherwise they wont ever score goals.

If we would dare to make the same sacrifice as Japan, then I'm convinced that it will pay off(for Kagawa and the team), simply because our defense+Carrick actually is very capable. Pundits have complained all season about United's negative football, and I agree with them. Even if the super traditional "United way" doesn't particularly suit Kagawa, it still makes him a whole lot better, simply because it's positive and attacking. That is why Kagawa was much better in the league when Fergie was in charge.

Van Gaal can't come soon enough!

 

[Cina]

I remember now why I stopped bothering with the Kagawa thread, because anything that isn't extremely positive about Shinji is met with overwhelming bashing by the German posters and essays by MW on how wonderful he used to be. I don't think I've ever seen another Utd player who after such a largely underwhelming first two seasons here is still so vehemently defended and anyone who dares criticize him gets guillotined by them.

FWIW (probably not much because I've already been a bit negative about him so I'm clearly the spawn of the devil in the eyes of you lot), I do think he's a great player, he was a great player, one of the best around, but if he can't sort out his game to play the way we play then what's the point in constantly dwelling on what he used to be/can be?

 

[Ace of Spades]

There is also an argument to be made that it's easier for attacking players to play in the Bundesliga.

No there is not. Kagawa has been average for us, for whatever reason, but that has nothing to do with the difficulty of the Bundesliga compared to PL. Some players settle into new clubs easily, others do not.

Using your logic, we should not go for Reus or Kroos either, because they will find it difficult to cut it in the PL. That is just stupid reasoning.

 

[NK86]

He has been really awful the last couple of games he played. Hope that is just because he has his focus on Japan and not because he thinks he is getting the boot this summer.

 

[Mad Winger]

Slight problem, we're not Dortmund, we don't have Klopp (who that style is quite unique to) and therefore he needs to adapt his game in order to succeed here. It's that simple really, clamour on all you want about how great he was in that particular system, it won't change the fact that we're very unlikely to actually play like that here.

First of all, Klopp's style isn't that unique. It's very similar to United ala 1999, but with less width a maybe a bit more off-the-ball movement. It's basically counter-attacking football combined with hard work and technically skilled players.

Why not hit two birds with one stone? Return to the real "United way" and get the best out of players like Kagawa? It seems like a win-win scenario to me!

Or we could continue to suck..

 

[NotoriousISSY]

If Kagawa stays and is equally as disappointing under van Gaal, will we be given permission from Mad Winger to say a bad word or two?

 

[Speak]

There was no focal point: Sahin was just as important as Lewandowski,Kagawa and Gotze; that was the key to Dortmund's success at the time - No real focal point.

Kagawa played with freedom and like he was just having fun playing 'heads and volleys' with his friends at the park.
Very rarely has he looked like he's having fun here, and so half of his game is gone.

He gave the ball away more playing for Dortmund, and he was less 'tidy' but it's taken half his game away. His passing was never as measured, whereas here he has no trust in his team-mates. His passing wasn't always 100% accurate at Dortmund (in the way Silva's is) but his teammates were always on his wavelength, and expected the cheeky flicks and back-heels.

It's no coincidence that Rooney and him gel together better than anyone else - because Rooney tends to at least try passes that may come off but may not, whereas too many of our players wont pass forward unless they're sure it will come off; which is why we play at a snail's pace.

Kagawa, Rooney, Welbeck as a front three would be the most fluid system: None of them are afraid to lose the ball trying something riskier (which is the key to playing through teams at pace)

Van Gaal may just be the right man for this type of football, so Kagawa may improve. But the chances of Kagawa here being like the Kagawa of Dortmund are slim.

 

[do.ob]

Of course not. We built teams around Rooney and Ronaldo, after all. Like I said, he was the focal point for their attacking play, for the most part. Maybe "building the team to suit him" is a bit far, but whenever I watched Dortmund I got the impression that he was Klopp's favourite player and that he set up his team to get the best out of him more and more. Obviously you can counter-argue that by saying that because Kagawa was so good, Klopp then started to make him the focal point more and more, it's hard to know.

How did he set up his team for Kagawa? What adjustments did he make to accomodate him? Why hasn't there been a drastic change in style after Kagawa left if everything was centered around him?

Really? For me Gotze really never hit his stride fully until after Kagawa actually left, probably a discussion for somewhere else, though.

Götze's G+A was actually higher than Kagawa's in both half seasons they played together. Especially in Kagawa's second season Götze was carrying the team while Kagawa had a rather bad/mediocre start to the season.





Dortmund's style was/is simply a perfect fit for Kagawa. It makes full use of his game reading capabilities when off the ball and the pacy attacks and rather fluid movement is what makes him shine when he has the ball. That's why he took literally no time to fit in when he came over from Japan.

 

[Speak]

This is fair enough. And I agree, it wouldn't be a tragedy if Kagawa left. But it would go down as an embarrassing failure from our part, and neutrals would definitely blame Moyes and our crappy football for not being able to implement a positive player like Kagawa. The fact that he plays better for Japan, despite also playing out of position there, goes to show how much it positive football matters for catalysts. Japan is not a better team than United, but they play fluid, risky, attacking football. They know that they are volnurable on the counter, but they just don't care. In order to implement players like Kagawa and Honda, they need to play like this. Otherwise they wont ever score goals.

If we would dare to make the same sacrifice as Japan, then I'm convinced that it will pay off(for Kagawa and the team), simply because our defense+Carrick actually is very capable. Pundits have complained all season about United's negative football, and I agree with them. Even if the super traditional "United way" doesn't particularly suit Kagawa, it still makes him a whole lot better, simply because it's positive and attacking. That is why Kagawa was much better in the league when Fergie was in charge.

Van Gaal can't come soon enough!

Neutrals wont care, to be honest.

 

[acnumber9]

No there is not. Kagawa has been average for us, for whatever reason, but that has nothing to do with the difficulty of the Bundesliga compared to PL. Some players settle into new clubs easily, others do not.

Using your logic, we should not go for Reus or Kroos either, because they will find it difficult to cut it in the PL. That is just stupid reasoning.

There definitely is. The number of goals scored in the Bundesliga and gulf in class between the best and the rest would point to it.

The logic isn't stating that we should not go after other players from the Bundesliga either. You're being silly. Just because Kagawa hasn't yet replicated his supposedly fantastic from doesn't mean others can't.

 

[acnumber9]

Neutrals wont care, to be honest.

That's what I was thinking too. mad Winger has mean ruined neutrals before and their thoughts on Kagawa. None I know even talk about him as a player. Makes me wonder if the people he talks to are so neutral.

 

[ManniKaltz]

And if i can add something, Kagawa is not a playmaker (#10), you don't build the team around him, he his the Muller type of player, a catalyst, you use him when you already have a team, with Japan or Dortmund he wasn't the nucleus of the team.

Klopp & our club execs still regard him as a 10 as they just repeated 10 days ago.

I don't think that Dortmund team was build around him. He suited their system and excelled in it

This.

 

[JPRouve]

Klopp & our club execs still regard him as a 10 as they just repeated 10 days ago.

This.

I know they do, but there is something weird about that because Dortmund don't play with a classic #10, like Kroos, Zidane or Riquelme. It's my interpretation but i really see Kagawa or mkhitaryan as Muller-like type of players.

And there is a confusion because in Europe (except italian who have a lot of endogene positions) we tend to use the 10 denomination to describe the player in the hole. But this player is not necessarily a 10, he can be an advanced center midfielder or a second striker.

 

[Speak]

Klopp & our club execs still regard him as a 10 as they just repeated 10 days ago.

Hes not a true number ten though, is he?

Totti, Silva, Kaka could/can all do the one-touch stuff that Kagawa can, but crucially, they can also unlock defences while playing a slower paced game. They have the ability to hold the ball while waiting for that one pass. Anytime Kagawa is required to hold the ball for any period of time, he looks likely to be tackled, unless he's in good space.

Great at the one-twos, but when required to hold the ball, and dictate the game - he can't. The best number tens don't need their team mates within five yards.
I've said before that if you put Silva in our team, he'd raise our game. We wouldn't be having this discussion about Silva (despite our non-existent system). He may not have the impact here that he has at City, but we'd be discussing how to elevate him from good to great, not average to good.

Sneijder at Inter is another example: Kagawa could never do what he did there.
kagawa's more of a second striker: He needs to be very close to his striker, at least.

 

[Ace of Spades]

There definitely is. The number of goals scored in the Bundesliga and gulf in class between the best and the rest would point to it.

The logic isn't stating that we should not go after other players from the Bundesliga either. You're being silly. Just because Kagawa hasn't yet replicated his supposedly fantastic from doesn't mean others can't.

No there isn't. The reason Kagawa has been average for us has got nothing to do with the quality of the Bundesliga compared with the PL. Whether players can settle into a different club or not depends on the individual player, and varies for every individual. Nothing to do with the quality of the league. You just admitted it yourself when you said that other players from the Bundesliga won't end up the same as Kagawa. That means that it has nothing to do with the league, but the player itself.

Your logic boils down to that though, which is why I pointed it out. Kagawa's average performances for us have no connection to the difficulty of the BL compared to the PL. It is down to the players himself.

 

[do.ob]

In Germany the term "No 10" is very often used to just describe the position behind the striker rather than the particular role that player plays.
I agree though that Kagawa is not a typical number 10 and that he is not as independent as some other "true" playmakers. With him the difference between decent/promising and good/great lies in the style of the team.

 

[ManniKaltz]

@JPRouve and @SpeakTruth

You both have some points, i.e that Shinji thrives on playing closer to the striker and that Shinji and Mkhitaryan interpret the position in a similar way. I recall that Klopp described in an interview last summer a bit more in detail what he expects from a no. 10 (= a Klopp no. 10 ), and that Mkhitaryan fufills these criteria as Shinji did. I shall dig that interview out before continue writing as I'm not sure if I recall all details correctly.

 

[A1X]

Very true. Nobody has been more committed to giving the ball away this season than our Shinji.

 

[Cina]

First of all, Klopp's style isn't that unique. It's very similar to United ala 1999, but with less width a maybe a bit more off-the-ball movement. It's basically counter-attacking football combined with hard work and technically skilled players.

Why not hit two birds with one stone? Return to the real "United way" and get the best out of players like Kagawa? It seems like a win-win scenario to me!

Or we could continue to suck..

If we get LvG we won't continue to suck, but I'll be very surprised if Kagawa is the player he wants to mould our style of play around to get the best out of, and nor should he be.

 

[Man of Leisure]

Very true. Nobody has been more committed to giving the ball away this season than our Shinji.

That's a load of bollocks. Up until his recent foray as a center midfielder, Kagawa has been excellent in keeping possession. Fair enough he may be disappointing in other areas, but keeping possession and passing accuracy are two of his better attributes.

 

[Mad Winger]

If we get LvG we won't continue to suck, but I'll be very surprised if Kagawa is the player he wants to mould our style of play around to get the best out of, and nor should he be.

That might be the case.

But if this happens, then it's only because we have Mata now. Kagawa would definitely be a clear starter under any decent coach for the current United team(minus Mata). Any decent coach would have managed to implement Kagawa to the team and make him play well. Fergie did this to a certain degree, but Kagawa's injuries stood in the way. Had Fergie still been around, then we would have seen a much better Kagawa right now. Though tbf, he was our best player in april, alongside Mata.

Moyes single-handedly ruined Kagawa's progression, and then further alienated him by signing Mata. Piss poor management, which potentially has lead to a 2 year project being thrown in the toilet. With a decent coach and a more successful implementation of Kagawa, we would have been well within the top 4, Kagawa firing on all syllinders, and 37.5 million extra to spend on players.

Moyes logic:
1. Completely disregard Fergie's Kagawa project. Play him less than half as often as Fergie, and barely let him touch the no.10 position.
2. Sign a player similar to Kagawa to offer essentially what Fergie signed Kagawa to do.

 

[acnumber9]

No there isn't. The reason Kagawa has been average for us has got nothing to do with the quality of the Bundesliga compared with the PL. Whether players can settle into a different club or not depends on the individual player, and varies for every individual. Nothing to do with the quality of the league. You just admitted it yourself when you said that other players from the Bundesliga won't end up the same as Kagawa. That means that it has nothing to do with the league, but the player itself.

Your logic boils down to that though, which is why I pointed it out. Kagawa's average performances for us have no connection to the difficulty of the BL compared to the PL. It is down to the players himself.

Yes there is. Attackers will always find it easier in a less defensive league. That's not an opinion.

I never said they wouldn't struggle. They might for any number of reasons. I said one doesn't automatically lead to the other.

 

[Shark]

If he stays in the summer and has another season like this under Van Gaal, well than I well and truly give up. As it stands, I still have faith that he can do the business for us under a manager that knows how best to use him and that he's intelligent enough to finally adapt too.

 

[JPRouve]

Yes there is. Attackers will always find it easier in a less defensive league. That's not an opinion.

I never said they wouldn't struggle. They might for any number of reasons. I said one doesn't automatically lead to the other.

The premier league is not better defensively, there is a lot of space and a lot of stupid defenders.

The Bundesliga is a more offensive minded, every team wants to attack.

The Problem for Kagawa is that he is not a play maker, he is a facilitator, he is not the instigator of the play. You can't use Kagawa without a clear team play. And it's gonna be the same with Reus, if we don't change our entire setup.

But in the meantime we (Kagawa enthusiasts) need to be honest, he has been poor, one of his main characteristic is that he is a great finisher and he has been extremely poor in that area, and just for that he needs a lot of blame.

 

[Baxter]

If he stays in the summer and has another season like this under Van Gaal, well than I well and truly give up. As it stands, I still have faith that he can do the business for us under a manager that knows how best to use him and that he's intelligent enough to finally adapt too.

I'd agree with that. This season has been a write off for the players that weren't fancied by Moyes. He'd play them and then they wouldn't be seen on the pitch again for 3-4 games even if they played well. There is no way they can be expected to perform consistently at anything near their best if there first team involvement is so stop-start. I'd give him another season with a coach who plays more modern football to see how he does.

 

[Kostur]

That might be the case.

But if this happens, then it's only because we have Mata now. Kagawa would definitely be a clear starter under any decent coach for the current United team(minus Mata). Any decent coach would have managed to implement Kagawa to the team and make him play well. Fergie did this to a certain degree, but Kagawa's injuries stood in the way. Had Fergie still been around, then we would have seen a much better Kagawa right now. Though tbf, he was our best player in april, alongside Mata.

Moyes single-handedly ruined Kagawa's progression, and then further alienated him by signing Mata. Piss poor management, which potentially has lead to a 2 year project being thrown in the toilet. With a decent coach and a more successful implementation of Kagawa, we would have been well within the top 4, Kagawa firing on all syllinders, and 37.5 million extra to spend on players.

Moyes logic:
1. Completely disregard Fergie's Kagawa project. Play him less than half as often as Fergie, and barely let him touch the no.10 position.
2. Sign a player similar to Kagawa to offer essentially what Fergie signed Kagawa to do.

What project ? Project Kagawa was thrown into the bin same second we've signed RVP. Rooney played behind Robin last season and, if Kagawa played, he played it on the left. ( which was a great excuse for people who tried to justify his shit performances back then that happened from time to time )

Thank feck that Moyes signed Mata, one of his best decisions he's made here. Here's the difference, Mata comes to the team, doesn't need a year to settle in, scores 6 goals and gets 5 assists in the League. Shinji's record was just 4 assists in the league and nothing in the CL, even though he's played plenty minutes there. Nothing in FA/COC. Mata's able to back up himself with numbers, Kagawa can't do that. Mata's been simply head and shoulders above him since he got here. And it's not like he's always played his preferred #10 all the time, he's been thrown on the wings as well.

I do hope that he stays and that he'll be successful here but it's him that has to up his game. Moyes has been shit, true, but it didn't stop Januzaj from having miles better season than Kagawa ( just an example really ) and it was first season in the PL.

 

[acnumber9]

The premier league is not better defensively, there is a lot of space and a lot of stupid defenders.

The Bundesliga is a more offensive minded, every team wants to attack.

The Problem for Kagawa is that he is not a play maker, he is a facilitator, he is not the instigator of the play. You can't use Kagawa without a clear team play. And it's gonna be the same with Reus, if we don't change our entire setup.

But in the meantime we (Kagawa enthusiasts) need to be honest, he has been poor, one of his main characteristic is that he is a great finisher and he has been extremely poor in that area, and just for that he needs a lot of blame.

Your first two paragraphs contradict each other a little. If teams are more attacking then there is always going to be more space for attackers. That's before we start on the gap between the top 2 and the rest.

 

[JPRouve]

Your first two paragraphs contradict each other a little. If teams are more attacking then there is always going to be more space for attackers. That's before we start on the gap between the top 2 and the rest.

I suspected that i wasn't clear, what i mean is that the Premier League is not a good League defensively speaking, so it's not a problem for attacking players.

And for my second phrase i mean that you are right the Bundesliga is more suited to Attacking players, but not due to the defensive level but because of the mentality of the coaches who always try to accomodate their attacking players.

 

[Cina]

What project ? Project Kagawa was thrown into the bin same second we've signed RVP. Rooney played behind Robin last season and, if Kagawa played, he played it on the left. ( which was a great excuse for people who tried to justify his shit performances back then that happened from time to time )

Last season as in 12/13? Because that's just not true at all.

 

[Kostur]

Last season as in 12/13? Because that's just not true at all.

Aye, 2012/13 seasaon, what is not right in what I've said ? Probably exaggeration on my behalf in saying that he's played 100% games on the left but I'm pretty sure that that he's played most games on the left.

 

[Cina]

Aye, 2012/13 seasaon, what is not right in what I've said ? Probably exaggeration on my behalf in saying that he's played 100% games on the left but I'm pretty sure that that he's played most games on the left.

it's been done to death here before and MW will probably know it off by heart knowing him, but Kagawa was used in the middle far more than on the left. If anything, 12/13 when both he and RvP were fully fit, Rooney was the one being sacrificed more so (hence starting his next "I wanna leave" debacle). SAF did play him left a few times but even then, it wasn't as a winger, I remember Brwned posting a few heat maps from those games and he basically drifted in centrally in all of them, it was more like he was being asked to try a Silva/Mata role than play as a winger for us.

 

[Kostur]

it's been done to death here before and MW will probably know it off by heart knowing him, but Kagawa was used in the middle far more than on the left. If anything, 12/13 when both he and RvP were fully fit, Rooney was the one being sacrificed more so (hence starting his next "I wanna leave" debacle). SAF did play him left a few times but even then, it wasn't as a winger, I remember Brwned posting a few heat maps from those games and he basically drifted in centrally in all of them, it was more like he was being asked to try a Silva/Mata role than play as a winger for us.

Fair enough if he's played more centrally, my memory fails me in this case so apologies and yea, I know that he wasn't played as a winger per se but 'on the left' back then.

Rest of my point stands though.

 

[Wumminator]

I honestly can't stand the "goals/assists" debate going on. Watch the games with two eyes. Mata is head and shoulders better than Kagawa.

 

[The Mitcher]

I honestly can't stand the "goals/assists" debate going on. Watch the games with two eyes. Mata is head and shoulders better than Kagawa.

This.

 

[Rykker_4united]

Reading MW on here is pretty funny. You're comparing Mata and Kagawa because they're similar players but that doesn't mean they're of similar ability. In reality, neither has been at their true level for us this season. Mata's bad play is a higher level than Kagawa's bad play and Mata's best form is better than Kagawa's best form, even the most avid Kagawa fan (MW) should be able to see that Mata is a better player...

I like Kagawa but he hasn't shown up this season. When the going has gotten tough, he's been very average. I hope he can be part of a dynamic new-look United, and I hope he has a chance under our next manager to play to his ability, which is a high level but not that of Mata.

 

[Mad Winger]

but Kagawa was used in the middle far more than on the left.

Extremely false accusation!

Kagawa started 22 games for us in 12/13. However, out of those 22 starts, only 7 of them were in the no.10 position! There were 2 or 3 games where he switched from the left wing to the AM position 10-20 minutes before full time, but these minutes hardly make a difference in the long run.

So, in short, Kagawa spent 65-70% of his playtime on the left wing under Fergie.

Reading MW on here is pretty funny. You're comparing Mata and Kagawa because they're similar players but that doesn't mean they're of similar ability. In reality, neither has been at their true level for us this season. Mata's bad play is a higher level than Kagawa's bad play and Mata's best form is better than Kagawa's best form, even the most avid Kagawa fan (MW) should be able to see that Mata is a better player...

I have never said that Kagawa is better than Mata, though. I'm simply saying that the distance between the two isn't as big as people suggest. And using their United performances as the only indicator, is extremely unfair, when Mata has played 80-90% of the time in his favored position, consistently, without any injuries. He also didn't have to adapt to a new league like Kagawa had to in his first season.

I disagree that Mata has a higher top level than Kagawa. Even for United. Kagawa's top 3 performances for us have been better than Mata's top 3 performances for us. Though tbf, Kagawa has had more time to hit those peaks. But I don't expect it to change. Watching Kagawa's best games for Dortmund and Mata's best games for Chelsea, I'm still of the opinion that Kagawa has a higher top level. The difference is that Kagawa is more dependent on the team playing well. Mata is a bit like Rooney, in the sense that he can be completely anonymous and still score/assist.