Shooting in San Bernardino, California

[Classical Mechanic]

352 mass shootings (on average 4 or more killed) in America in 337 days this year. So I doubt it very much that a few more similar attacks will make any difference.

When it is the 'bad guys' doing the killing I think it will make a difference, it will also allow any political leader a bit more leverage to push something through.

Not that it makes sense but I think it would have a different psychological effect on the American people.

I could be wrong but that is my feeling.

 

[rpitchfo]

When it is the 'bad guys' doing the killing I think it will make a difference, it will also allow any political leader a bit more leverage to push something through.

Not that it makes sense but I think it would have a different psychological effect on the American people.

I could be wrong but that is my feeling.

If nothing changed after sandy hook. Nothing ever will. I'm still haunted after what happened to those children. America lost its soul that day.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

352 mass shootings (on average 4 or more killed) in America in 337 days this year. So I doubt it very much that a few more similar attacks will make any difference.

How many were Islamic fundamentalists though?

If nothing changed after sandy hook. Nothing ever will. I'm still haunted after what happened to those children. America lost its soul that day.

Was that not a 'homegrown' tragedy?

Look at the US's reaction to taking Syrian refugees. Completely illogical of course but there is great fear of Islamic terrorism over there, probably because of the right wing media.

I think there will be a major terrorist attack in America within the next few years. Imagine the carnage that an organised cell like the one we saw in Paris could cause with weaponry you can easily get hold of in America.

 

[Nanook]

What, can only people with white sounding names work for the county?

Middle Eastern sounding names & more than one shooter, it sounds nothing like a work place dispute and everything like a pre-planned terrorist attack.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Middle Eastern sounding names & more than one shooter, it sounds nothing like a work place dispute and everything like a pre-planned terrorist attack.

Are you suggesting that having a Middle Eastern name is one of the reason to call it a terrorist attack? If you are, I am not buying it.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Middle Eastern sounding names & more than one shooter, it sounds nothing like a work place dispute and everything like a pre-planned terrorist attack.

Yeah because in work place disputes people never seeth quietly for weeks / months whilst they plan their revenge. Completely unheard of.

 

[Deleted member 78215]

Hold on: A Muslim couple go on a coordinated rampage with multiple guns (including automatic and semi-automatic machine guns), wearing military-style clothing and armour, and we're going to castigate people for thinking this is an act of terrorism?

How on earth does your first thought go to "workplace dispute" given the details of the incident?

Note, I'm not saying it wasn't a workplace dispute, but to start claiming the moral/PC high ground by rebuking someone for thinking it might be a terrorist act is ridiculous, especially in light of recent events.

 

[Rado_N]

Hold on: A Muslim couple go on a coordinated rampage with multiple guns (including automatic and semi-automatic machine guns), wearing military-style clothing and armour, and we're going to castigate people for thinking this is an act of terrorism?

How on earth does your first thought go to "workplace dispute" given the details of the incident?

Would you say the same if that post started with "a white couple"?

The speculation of a workplace dispute comes from the fact that it has been said he was at the workplace, left, then came back locked and loaded.

If it was a terrorist incident then was was the ideology? Where's the 'message'?

 

[Nanook]

Yeah because in work place disputes people never seeth quietly for weeks / months whilst they plan their revenge. Completely unheard of.

Almost all the revenge killers act alone, it's pretty hard to convince somebody to go on a killing spree with you. Like I said, more than one shooter + middle eastern background, is it unfair to say that it was probably a terrorist attack?

 

[Deleted member 78215]

Would you say the same if that post started with "a white couple"?

The speculation of a workplace dispute comes from the fact that it has been said he was at the workplace, left, then came back locked and loaded.

If it was a terrorist incident then was was the ideology? Where's the 'message'?

I've added to my post. My point is, it's not unreasonable to think this might be an Islamist attack. It's just not. Obviously we'll get a clearer picture as more news come out, but the style of the massacre doesn't speak to me of a "heat of the moment" attack. They had AR-15s (I think I read) and body armour - there's definite premeditation at play. Of course, it might be a premeditated attack due to the workplace issues, but at this stage we cannot rule out an ideological motivation, nor should we chastise those who believe the motivations are ideological.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Almost all the revenge killers act alone, it's pretty hard to convince somebody to go on a killing spree with you. Like I said, more than one shooter + middle eastern background, is it unfair to say that it was probably a terrorist attack?

Neither of us know either way, but go right ahead and start making assumptions about people because of their names if it makes you feel better.

 

[Rado_N]

I've added to my post. My point is, it's not unreasonable to think this might be an Islamist attack. It's just not. Obviously we'll get a clearer picture as more news come out, but the style of the massacre doesn't speak to me of a "heat of the moment" attack. They had AR-15s (I think I read) and body armour - there's definite premeditation at play. Of course, it might be a premeditated attack due to the workplace issues, but at this stage we cannot rule out an ideological motivation, nor should we chastise those who believe the motivations are ideological.

The only thing I think anyone has been 'chastised' over is saying definitively that it's not a workplace dispute because the shooters have Middle Eastern sounding names, which is just a stupid ignorant thing to say.

We don't know the motive yet, but people are too quick to start jumping up and down shouting 'terrorist' before knowing what's actually going on - often based on little or nothing more than skin colour or names.

 

[Maxii]

Almost all the revenge killers act alone, it's pretty hard to convince somebody to go on a killing spree with you. Like I said, more than one shooter + middle eastern background, is it unfair to say that it was probably a terrorist attack?

Could be wrong, but did I not read that they were husband and wife? Hardly as if he was trying to convince his mate to come along with him, being a couple is a completely different situation.

And is body armour not readily available in gun shops too? If it is then I'm sure there are a lot of gun nuts who own it which doesn't automatically make them terrorists.

 

[SteveJ]

It's at times like these when I recall that Fox News interviewed people dressed up as Father Christmas and George Washington...as if they really were Father Christmas and George Washington.

 

[Deleted member 78215]

The only thing I think anyone has been 'chastised' over is saying definitively that it's not a workplace dispute because the shooters have Middle Eastern sounding names, which is just a stupid ignorant thing to say.

We don't know the motive yet, but people are too quick to start jumping up and down shouting 'terrorist' before knowing what's actually going on - often based on little or nothing more than skin colour or names.

How many mass shootings in Western countries carried out by people with Arabic names have not been ideologically motivated?

Genuine question, by the way.

Unfortunately, as ignorant as it may seem, the aggressor's ethnicity, and even name, is probably a good indicator of his/her reasons.

 

[Rado_N]

How many mass shootings in Western countries carried out by people with Arabic names have not been ideologically motivated?

Genuine question, by the way.

I've no idea, but most mass shootings are carried out by white men - of course then it's down to mental health issues.

Unfortunately, as ignorant as it may seem, the aggressor's ethnicity, and even name, is probably a good indicator of his/her reasons.

Yep, seems pretty ignorant.

It might end up being terrorism, I don't know, but it's probably a good idea to wait until we know the facts before coming to any conclusions. Crazy idea, I know.

 

[Deleted member 78215]

I've no idea, but most mass shootings are carried out by white men - of course then it's down to mental health issues.


Yep, seems pretty ignorant.

It might end up being terrorism, I don't know, but it's probably a good idea to wait until we know the facts before coming to any conclusions. Crazy idea, I know.

That's exactly what I've been saying...

I just find it strange that officials are saying it could be terrorism, yet when someone in this thread suggests it others unsubtly, though not outwardly, imply he's profiling and racist.

 

[Rado_N]

That's exactly what I've been saying...

Actually you've been defending jumping to conclusions based on ethnicity and names, but whatever.

 

[Deleted member 78215]

Actually you've been defending jumping to conclusions based on ethnicity and names, but whatever.

Yeah, okay.

 

[Rado_N]

That's exactly what I've been saying...

I just find it strange that officials are saying it could be terrorism, yet when someone in this thread suggests it others unsubtly, though not outwardly, imply he's profiling and racist.

I see you've edited your post, I already explained once that the only thing anyone has been called up on is saying that it can't be a workplace dispute just because they sound Middle Eastern. That is profiling whether you like it or not.

Yeah, okay.

Well, yea, people responded to the aforementioned ignorance and then you came along having a go at them for it, saying its not unreasonable to think that, and that ethnicity is a good indicator.

I'm not sure what else you could call it, he jumped to conclusions based on ethnicity, you defended him.

Or am I wrong?

 

[Nanook]

Neither of us know either way, but go right ahead and start making assumptions about people because of their names if it makes you feel better.

We all make assumptions, there was a thread here recently about an abortion clinic shooting, everybody who read about it would have assumed the culprit was white, male and Christian and they were right.

I agree I shouldn't have said it wasn't a workplace incident because it could be. When I made that comment there was talk of two maybe three shooters, body armour, machine guns and then there was the confirmation of the two suspects with Arabic names. It all points to it being a terrorist attack, it was a fair assumption to make even if it turns out to be wrong.

 

[LeChuck]

So he went home told his wife to armour up, got hold of his handy supply of pipe bombs, kissed their baby goodnight and went to erase that annoying guy in accounts?

Well - seeing as he targeted his colleagues following an altercation, I'd say so. He didn't target anyone disabled or a user of the facility, so it seems it was those who worked there.

Also, eyewitnesses from the party said the killer was there, had a fight and was angry and left. Showed up the next day to do some damage.

Sometimes 2+2=4.

 

[GloryHunter07]

We all make assumptions, there was a thread here recently about an abortion clinic shooting, everybody who read about it would have assumed the culprit was white, male and Christian and they were right.

Not me, i think jumping to conclusions and trying to claim you know people's motives immediately after something bad has happened is just a bit wierd.

I agree I shouldn't have said it wasn't a workplace incident because it could be. When I made that comment there was talk of two maybe three shooters, body armour, machine guns and then there was the confirmation of the two suspects with Arabic names. It all points to it being a terrorist attack, it was a fair assumption to make if it turns out to be wrong.

Speculate away but i think what you said about arabic names is naiive.

 

[Deleted member 78215]

I see you've edited your post, I already explained once that the only thing anyone has been called up on is saying that it can't be a workplace dispute just because they sound Middle Eastern. That is profiling whether you like it or not.



Well, yea, people responded to the aforementioned ignorance and then you came along having a go at them for it, saying its not unreasonable to think that, and that ethnicity is a good indicator.

I'm not sure what else you could call it, he jumped to conclusions based on ethnicity, you defended him.

Or am I wrong?

I'm not defending him, per se, I'm saying it's not an unreasonable or, at the extreme, racist assumption. The last shooting on American soil, I've found (not researched it extensively, admittedly), carried out by a Muslim, with an Arabic name, was the Fort Hood massacre. Pretty much everything points to that attack being rooted in an ideological purpose.

The western world is still reeling from an Islamic-motivated massacre undertaken by people with Arabic names - it's not an illogical leap to think a Muslim couple, with Arabic names, carrying out a coordinated and premeditated attack, with a veritable arsenal of weaponry (including automatic rifles and, according to reports, crude explosives) might be doing it in the name of an ideology. I'm not saying they're not nutters - being ideologically driven and being mentally ill are not mutually exclusive. Anybody that is willing to kill in the name of an unproven, ethereal deity is unlikely to be anything but mentally ill.

I'm trying to make the point that while the information is still quite opaque, you can't rule out that a part, or all, of the motive rests on ideological grounds, and that calling this couple terrorists is not 'racist'.

 

[VeevaVee]

I've no idea, but most mass shootings are carried out by white men - of course then it's down to mental health issues.


Yep, seems pretty ignorant.

It might end up being terrorism, I don't know, but it's probably a good idea to wait until we know the facts before coming to any conclusions. Crazy idea, I know.

It is much more likely to be a mental health issue though isn't it? Rather than brain washed imbeciles.

I do agree we should wait before saying it's terrorism or not (and I do think as far as we're concerned that it doesn't really matter), but it feels as if some people are doing so for the aggressor's sake almost without even realising because they've become so inclined to defend anyone and everything (specially regarding anyone Middle Eastern), which is a bit of a current trend.

All in all, the world has gone batshit crazy and seems to be getting more and more batshit by the week. I blame the internet.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Well - seeing as he targeted his colleagues following an altercation, I'd say so. He didn't target anyone disabled or a user of the facility, so it seems it was those who worked there.

Also, eyewitnesses from the party said the killer was there, had a fight and was angry and left. Showed up the next day to do some damage.

Sometimes 2+2=4.

You could be right Le Chuck. I don't actually know. I just seem to be in a particularly sarcastic mood today. Apologies. You always stay reasonable on here. I should try to do the same.

 

[LeChuck]

You could be right Le Chuck. I don't actually know. I just seem to be in a particularly sarcastic mood today. Apologies. You always stay reasonable on here. I should try to do the same.

Agreed - tbh I could be wrong too, but the way it seems atm is that it was a workplace dispute that went extremely overboard. It might transpire that there's something more to it, however.

 

[Rado_N]

I'm not defending him, per se, I'm saying it's not an unreasonable or, at the extreme, racist assumption. The last shooting on American soil, I've found (not researched it extensively, admittedly), carried out by a Muslim, with an Arabic name, was the Fort Hood massacre. Pretty much everything points to that attack being rooted in an ideological purpose.

The western world is still reeling from an Islamic-motivated massacre undertaken by people with Arabic names - it's not an illogical leap to think a Muslim couple, with Arabic names, carrying out a coordinated and premeditated attack, with a veritable arsenal of weaponry (including automatic rifles and, according to reports, crude explosives) might be doing it in the name of an ideology. I'm not saying they're not nutters - being ideologically driven and being mentally ill are not mutually exclusive. Anybody that is willing to kill in the name of an unproven, ethereal deity is unlikely to be anything but mentally ill.

I'm trying to make the point that while the information is still quite opaque, you can't rule out that a part, or all, of the motive rests on ideological grounds, and that calling this couple terrorists is not 'racist'.

People weren't ruling it out. Someone ruled out the possibility of it being anything else, that's the whole point.

It is much more likely to be a mental health issue though isn't it? Rather than brain washed imbeciles.

I was making the point that every time a white guy shoots a bunch of people its blamed on mental health by the right wing politicians and press to try and divert attention from the gun control problem.

All in all, the world has gone batshit crazy and seems to be getting more and more batshit by the week. I blame the internet.

The world is definitely batshit.

 

[mu77]

should move this to " Religious extremist carries out terror attack in usa" thread. this was too well planned. 3 people and bombs. this isn't a workplace issue. not being that up armed.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

Governor of Texas

 

[adexkola]

First of all, horrible incident. I'm sure as more details come out, a clearer picture will be painted, but there's still families without loved ones for whatever poor excuse led to this.

Do people start to get an idea why some police forces are "militarized?" The gear and weaponry that some of these assholes use would wreak even more havoc.

The problem isn't with police forces having specialized weaponry and gear to use during legitimate situations like this. No one wants another Munich.

It's when the big gear is dragged out for situations that don't warrant such a heavy response that people complain. Such as protests, or normal criminal apprehension, where things can be de-escalated. Busting down doors to get weed dealers is a gross misappropriation. With criminals with heavy weaponry who are using it actively, be my guest, go Rambo on them.

 

[Neutral]

should move this to " Religious extremist carries out terror attack in usa" thread. this was too well planned

I say we hold off until the authorities provide some details of his emails/internet searches/books...Unlike Nidal Hassan or the Frenchies, no reports yet of this guy following the template and screaming 'Allahu Akbar' etc etc before gunning down innocents.

It is perfectly reasonable and more than likely this is yet another incident of the widespread pattern of Islamic terrorism we've witnessed over the last x amount of years but until we have confirmation...

F-ing Terrorists...denying Muslim workers the right to act like unhinged wack jobs.

 

[Red Dreams]

We still don't know what is behind this. Just lets wait for the authorities to finish their investigations.

 

[Red Dreams]

Governor of Texas

complete insanity.

 

[adexkola]

I'm not defending him, per se, I'm saying it's not an unreasonable or, at the extreme, racist assumption. The last shooting on American soil, I've found (not researched it extensively, admittedly), carried out by a Muslim, with an Arabic name, was the Fort Hood massacre. Pretty much everything points to that attack being rooted in an ideological purpose.

The western world is still reeling from an Islamic-motivated massacre undertaken by people with Arabic names - it's not an illogical leap to think a Muslim couple, with Arabic names, carrying out a coordinated and premeditated attack, with a veritable arsenal of weaponry (including automatic rifles and, according to reports, crude explosives) might be doing it in the name of an ideology. I'm not saying they're not nutters - being ideologically driven and being mentally ill are not mutually exclusive. Anybody that is willing to kill in the name of an unproven, ethereal deity is unlikely to be anything but mentally ill.

I'm trying to make the point that while the information is still quite opaque, you can't rule out that a part, or all, of the motive rests on ideological grounds, and that calling this couple terrorists is not 'racist'.

Lol

 

[Neutral]

Farook, an inspector, seemed quiet during the early hours of the event, then vanished just as a group photo was about to be taken.

....

....

Police officials said Farook had worked for the county for five years. San Bernardino Police Chief Jarrod Burguan said that there were reports of a dispute before Farook left the party.

....

....

They said Farook recently traveled to Saudi Arabia and returned with a new wife he had met online. The couple had a baby and appeared to be "living the American dream," said Patrick Baccari, a fellow health inspector who shared a cubicle with Farook.

......
......

Baccari and Christian Nwadike said Farook, who worked with them for several years, rarely started a conversation. But the tall, thin young man with a full beard was well liked and spent much of his time out in the field.

They and other colleagues said Farook was a devout Muslim, but rarely discussed religion at work.

"He never struck me as a fanatic, he never struck me as suspicious," said Griselda Reisinger, who worked with Farook before leaving the agency in May.

Reisinger said she heard that the office recently threw a baby shower for Farook and that he had taken paternity leave.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/...ican-dream-co-workers-say-20151202-story.html

 

[mu77]

I say we hold off until the authorities provide some details of his emails/internet searches/books...Unlike Nidal Hassan or the Frenchies, no reports yet of this guy following the template and screaming 'Allahu Akbar' etc etc before gunning down innocents.

It is perfectly reasonable and more than likely this is yet another incident of the widespread pattern of Islamic terrorism we've witnessed over the last x amount of years but until we have confirmation...

F-ing Terrorists...denying Muslim workers the right to act like unhinged wack jobs.

LOL - no shit - they are taking away our right to be fecking crazy!

he could have been screaming - god is great. too much in it for disgruntled employee , bombs? come on. it's usually some white dude with fecked up hair and crazy eyes.

 

[Amar__]

I thought religiuous terrorist acts are acts that were actually done in the name of religion, god, etc., one that actually sends some kind of message to people about that religion.

If these cnuts did it in the name of their religion surely people who were the victims and witnesses would have probably realised that and we would know it by now.

Of course, this can look as a terrorist act, but basing that just on their names is nothing else than being racist, because that's basically generalising all Muslims as terrorists, and we all know that's something we have never seen.

 

[Rado_N]

Governor of Texas

fecking idiot, and far from alone.

All the assholes around saying "California has the heaviest gun restrictions, this is evidence they don't work" as well, erm, ever heard if an interstate?

 

[Maagge]

The worst thing about religion is how we cannot have a thread like this without everything being obfuscated by talks of whether the cnuts were religious or not.