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Berbaclass said:
Out of a population of 65 million, meaning that around 30% of the people in the country actually voted for this. So by your logic that isn't a majority is it.

The fact is irrefutable, a referendum is simply a gauge of public opinion, in no way is it an absolute. Parliament will use the result and base their final decision on it, weighing it up with what they also think would be the best decision because after all that's what they're elected to do.
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well you can't really give all 65 million the vote...... you have children and what not.

the problem with your argument is if the out come of the referendum was only their to advice the government on opinion, that needed to be said before the referendum.

in retrospect thier is a lot of things that could of been done differently, personally i think a kind of referendum should have been held the same day as the last general election, but with 3 options, 1, leave the EU, 2 Remain, 3, Try renegotiating our deal and try and renegotiate the deal, if that fails leave. this would set out each parties and leaders position, so it would be easyer to hold them to account, unlike now where it was a cross party refrendum, so it very easy to say we couldn't do that policy becuase half my party doesnt want to.
and it would of also given the prime minister a stronger position to renegotiate as i don't think anyone in the EU really thought the uk would vote out, if they did i think cameron would have got a better deal..... but maybe im wrong

but hey hindsight is a wonderful things
 
Berbaclass said:
That's just blind ignorance then isn't it.
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You may think so, but again - that's not enough to ignore, or redo, a vote. And if you and others were incredibly desperate for this, then there should've been campaigning before the referendum had even been announced for a greater majority to be required.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
the problem with your argument is if the out come of the referendum was only their to advice the government on opinion, that needed to be said before the referendum.
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This was known beforehand...

From June 14, 2016.
http://www.businessinsider.com/green-eu-referendum-not-legally-binding-brexit-2016-6
A really crucial detail about the upcoming EU referendum has gone virtually unmentioned, and it is probably the most crucial detail: Parliament doesn't actually have to bring Britain out of the EU if the public votes for it.

That is because the result of the June 23 referendum on Britain's EU membership is not legally binding. Instead, it is merely advisory, and, in theory, could be totally ignored by the UK government.
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The only thing I'm trying to say is the fact that the result of the referendum is not legally binding.

My point about there being valid grounds for parliament to vote to stay in the EU is in my opinion valid due to the close result and the nature of it. If they decide to go with the result fair enough but all I'm saying is that it's not unthinkable that they go against it.
 
Berbaclass said:
There was no convincing these people and you know it. The leave campaign was exactly what they wanted to hear and dismissed everything else as "Project Fear" because they were so focused on "taking back control"
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Then, sorry, how are you going to convince them now?
 
Rudie said:
Not quite like a validated election whereby 17 million got out of their houses and voted for leave in less than 24 hours...
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1) The campaign for the referendum lasted for months beforehand, the petition started yesterday

2) It was 35 million
 
Berbaclass said:
1) The campaign for the referendum lasted for months beforehand

2) It was 35 million
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35 million for leave? Really???

And this is part of the same campaign...

Try opening your eyes and reading what I said. Oh and here's your dummy that you dropped Friday morning.
 
MannyB said:
Or maybe they are just some of the most densely populated areas.
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Yes.......
But it also is a virtual mirror image of the results colour wise on the map.
 
Rudie said:
35 million for leave? Really???

And this is part of the same campaign...

Try opening your eyes and reading what I said. Oh and here's your dummy that you dropped Friday morning.
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Apologies I misread you post I thought you meant 17 mil total.

As for the campaign, no, the campaign to have a second referendum started yesterday. How could it have started months ago when the outcome was decided yesterday.

I didn't insult you and I won't be drawn into a discussion like that so please refrain from petty insults as they add nothing to the discussion.
 
Berbaclass said:
Out of a population of 65 million, meaning that around 30% of the people in the country actually voted for this. So by your logic that isn't a majority is it.

The fact is irrefutable, a referendum is simply a gauge of public opinion, in no way is it an absolute. Parliament will use the result and base their final decision on it, weighing it up with what they also think would be the best decision because after all that's what they're elected to do.
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No. By my logic and by the laws of the land it is a majority. Only votes placed count. Those who didn't bother to vote or who were not eligible to vote, do not count. You do realise many of those in that 65 million are under 18 and not eligible to vote anyway. It was a 72% turn out. I know what you are saying and I know referendum votes are not legally binding but if democratic votes like this are to be ignored then what we have been given is only an illusion of choice.

For those arguing the winning margin is to slim and calling for another referendum, they are ridiculous. What would be the point, as its only a gauge of opinion anyway.....
 
BringNaniBack said:
I know referendum votes are not legally binding but if democratic votes like this are to be ignored then what we have been given is only an illusion of choice.
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You get to vote for your representation in Parliament, do you not?

Also... question:

Are you at all upset by what Farage and Hannan have said regarding the 350 million pounds and freedom of movement?
 
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BringNaniBack said:
No. By my logic and by the laws of the land it is a majority. Only votes placed count. Those who didn't bother to vote or who were not eligible to vote, do not count. You do realise many of those in that 65 million are under 18 and not eligible to vote anyway. It was a 72% turn out. I know what you are saying and I know referendum votes are not legally binding but if democratic votes like this are to be ignored then what we have been given is only an illusion of choice.

For those arguing the winning margin is to slim and calling for another referendum, they are ridiculous. What would be the point, as its only a gauge of opinion anyway.....
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It's not ridiculous it's pretty logical really. The immigration/NHS deceptions gave leave the votes it needed to win. I don't think it's unfair to assume that.
 
Berbaclass said:
I didn't insult you and I won't be drawn into a discussion like that so please refrain from petty insults as they add nothing to the discussion.
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Apologies likewise, there's been a lot of hatred by the left and in particular a lot of people on the Caf jumping on any slight comment, I jumped back and shouldn't. I vowed to stay out of the discussions and will as there'll never be any explanations or intelligent debate to be had, especially whilst the topic is so raw.

Don't think though that because the left are understandably protesting that the hypocrisy isn't apparent for all to see.

As others have said, we need to cure the divisions caused by this and work together, hopefully once the mourning is over.
 
Cheesy said:
Not really. All I'm saying is that you can't redo a referendum on the basis of lies when both sides were guilty of it.
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I'd say that'd be all the more reason.
 
Carolina Red said:
You get to vote for your representation in Parliament, do you not?
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Oh someone was elected to represent us in parliament so its fine for them to ignore a referendum vote.....I'm not even going to get into a debate with you if you are trying to use that as your argument. Again it's ridiculous.
 
BringNaniBack said:
Oh someone was elected to represent us in parliament so its fine for them to ignore a referendum vote.....I'm not even going to get into a debate with you if you are trying to use that as your argument. Again it's ridiculous.
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You said that you would have an illusion of choice... that is a lie. You have the ability to elect parliamentary representation.

The referendum is not legally binding. The government would be completely within their rights to reject the referendum.

Again... how does what was said by Farage and Hannan regarding the 350 million pounds a week and freedom of movement make you feel?
 
Danny1982 said:
I think the bigger question here, is how do they know it's a British citizen based on I.P. address? How can they tell it's a UK citizen and not a UK resident signing it?
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Cross ref names against postcode / electoral role
It does say on the website only British citizens can sign so presumably they have a way of checking... Hence they removed circa 50k signatures so far
 
Untied said:
Politics isn't a sport. You shouldn't just put up and shut up when you lose. Especially a victory for the far right and facists in our country. And as if UKIP would have packed up on a 52-48 result :lol:
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No, but you pick your next battle after you've accepted the outcome of the democratic process. You would have expected the same from the remain camp until friday morning I suppose. It's a matter of definition of course, but I think thursday's outcome has been a big blow for what I would consider far right in an economic and antidemocratic sense, and I don't see old school fascism gaining an advantage here either.
 
Carolina Red said:
You said that you would have an illusion of choice... that is a lie. You have the ability to elect parliamentary representation.

The referendum is not legally binding. The government would be completely within their rights to reject the referendum.

Again... how does what was said by Farage and Hannan regarding the 350 million pounds a week and freedom of movement make you feel?
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No it isn't a lie. As I said i'm not getting to that discussion with you as it is ridiculous. People need to accept the result is to leave and get on with it.

What was said by Farage and Hannan doesn't make me feel anything because I new the facts before the referendum, they haven't lied. We DO get our 350m back from the EU once we leave, yes I know we get a rebate already anyway. So we CAN spend that where we like. We also CAN control immigration once we leave the EU. It is just up to the current government in charge to make that decision as to how to control immigration and where to spend the money. So they haven't lied. Not sure how people have come to that conclusion. Everyone is getting a bit carried away.

Neither of those were my reasons for voting leave anyway.
 
Berbaclass said:
Apologies I misread you post I thought you meant 17 mil total.

As for the campaign, no, the campaign to have a second referendum started yesterday. How could it have started months ago when the outcome was decided yesterday.

I didn't insult you and I won't be drawn into a discussion like that so please refrain from petty insults as they add nothing to the discussion.
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Petition was created a month ago. From JSON file:
  • .data.attributes.created_at">"created_at": "2016-05-23T23:39:38.957Z"
But yeah, petition only kicked off after the referendum.
 
By the logic of this petition it is unlikely either side will ever win a referendum as neither side is going to win by over 60% on this issue.
 
BringNaniBack said:
No it isn't a lie. As I said i'm not getting to that discussion with you as it is ridiculous. People need to accept the result is to leave and get on with it.

What was said by Farage and Hannan doesn't make me feel anything because I new the facts before the referendum, they haven't lied. We DO get our 350m back from the EU once we leave, yes I know we get a rebate already anyway. So we CAN spend that where we like. We also CAN control immigration once we leave the EU. It is just up to the current government in charge to make that decision as to how to control immigration and where to spend the money. So they haven't lied. Not sure how people have come to that conclusion. Everyone is getting a bit carried away.

Neither of those were my reasons for voting leave anyway.
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So your tinfoil covered head is planted firmly in the sand. Good to know.

I don't see why you voted anyway, considering organizations like mine are going to make sure you lose anyway.
 
Damien said:
Petition was created a month ago. From JSON file:
  • .data.attributes.created_at">"created_at": "2016-05-23T23:39:38.957Z"
But yeah, petition only kicked off after the referendum.
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Ahh fair enough didn't see the creation date but yeah it only really started yesterday.
 
BringNaniBack said:
By the logic of this petition it is unlikely either side will ever win a referendum as neither side is going to win by over 60% on this issue.
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More than 60% would be much harder to argue against though wouldn't it. It's more of a clear majority as opposed to the narrow one we got.
 
sun_tzu said:
Dunno.... Give it a decade and enough of the over 65's die off and then possibly
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A lot of those people would have voted to remain the last time there was a referendum on the EU in 1975, the younger generation of their time, seems like they've change their minds since.
 
Carolina Red said:
So your tinfoil covered head is planted firmly in the sand. Good to know.

I don't see why you voted anyway, considering organizations like mine are going to make sure you lose anyway.
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Well it would seem that way if they are going to ignore the vote wouldn't it.

You keep hinting that you work for some kind of secret society so you obviously want to ask what that is? Not that I care.
 
Rudie said:
A lot of those people would have voted to remain the last time there was a referendum on the EU in 1975, the younger generation of their time, seems like they've change their minds since.
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Possibly... Of course what we don't know if that change is likely over say one decade rather than four decades
 
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