So who exactly did you listen to? I'm honestly curious.
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So who exactly did you listen to? I'm honestly curious.
The idea that the majority of remainers listened to politicians for their decision is just ridiculous. Very much what the leavers did.
The remainers have proven since the vote, they are the only bloody ones who know not to trust a word that comes out of a politicians mouth without checking the facts! Instead we objectively know the negatives and positives of EU membership. We know it's not a big happy, candy shop (plenty of issues that need fixed for sure) but the alternative offered by leave is a load of bollocks.
Stop this nonsense that he remain lot lied too. They fecking didn't.
The remainers have proven since the vote, they are the only bloody ones who know not to trust a word that comes out of a politicians mouth without checking the facts! Instead we objectively know the negatives and positives of EU membership. We know it's not a big happy, candy shop (plenty of issues that need fixed for sure) but the alternative offered by leave is a load of bollocks.
Stop this nonsense that he remain lot lied too. They fecking didn't.
Independent sources who you could safely say didn't have an agenda either way. Martin Lewis - of Moneysavingexpert fame - for one. He gave a detailed account of the pros and cons and actually concluded that he was just erring on the side of Remain but stipulated that this was only because he was risk-averse and it was a very close call for him. I took that on board as a message that Brexit wouldn't be quite the Armageddon that many predicted. Also Neil Woodford - one of the most successful fund managers in the UK over the past 30 years. I have a chunk of my private pension invested in one of his funds. He penned a piece on the Hargreaves Lansdown site about the impact of a Brexit vote on the financial markets. He felt that while there would be a negative short-term impact, there are many other global issues other than Brexit that could impact the markets too and his opinion was that they would bounce back in time. His stance on the vote itself was neutral.
In addition to this, I also decided that coming out of the EU wouldn't make the UK the pariahs of Europe and that we'll still be able to trade with EU countries while opening the doors to trading with much of the rest of the world. I'd imagine that there will be some tariffs but my belief is that they won't be so strict as to be unworkable because that would piss off some big businesses located in EU countries who rely on the UK market for a significant chunk of their revenue. Take cars for example - millions of Brits drive German, French, or Italian cars. Those companies won't stand for heavy tariffs when dealing with the U.K. as it could lead to job losses in those countries. A German business guru made this exact point a few days before the vote and for all the threatening language from the faceless bureaucrats at the EU, I'm pretty sure big business will help dictate the terms of any trade deals.
Ok, good to see you did your research. My personal circumstances lead me to voting Remain as there is no way I wanted an uncertain future which could lead into another Recession. But at the same time, I can relate to your position as I may have done the same 6/8 years ago.
It was a difficult one for many people mate, whichever way they voted. I fully understand why so many opted to keep with the status quo so to speak as the alternative really is a leap into the unknown due to the fact that there is no previous precedent. I was in the Remain camp at first but eventually switched, although I'm under no illusion that it will suddenly get better. We had a great discussion in work on Friday between Remainers and Leavers which didn't descend into the back-biting I've seen on social media - we talked about the pros and cons of remaining/leaving and there were good points on both sides.
It's really not bothering anyone because nothing will EVER come of it ever since the get go. So the remainers can sign it at will if it makes them feel better but it's a complete waste.
Is the correct answer. I was out walking my dog earlier and one bloke I know was flapping about this petition, saying that the House of Commoms will discuss it and vote to have a second referendum. Told him to calm the fcuk down as it isn't happening.
Referendums are not the be all and end all, they are merely suggestions. We elect people to make these decisions for us.
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This has been my experience too. I suspect it's because the people I know in real life (family, friends, colleagues) are split fairly evenly between Leavers and Remainers. Anywhere where there is a clear majority towards one side has turned into an echo chamber.
The same people vote for those elected officials. Plus didn't those that won the last election bring us the referendum?
Referendums are not the be all and end all, they are merely suggestions. We elect people to make these decisions for us.
May not bother you two but it clearly is bothering others, including the guy who started it. I would of thought if it wasn't then it would be widely ignored by leavers and not accompanied by taunts of 'Get over it you lost, we won'... But that's just my opinion.
Referendums are not the be all and end all, they are merely suggestions. We elect people to make these decisions for us.
Interesting that the "suggestions" are accepted only if they go in a certain direction. @BringNaniBack would have fun with this.
Kindly tell me how Britons will be at greater risk from terrorism as a direct result of Brexit? Or how this country's population in 2030 will be exactly the same as it is 2016? Or why a British government free of Brussels' authority wouldn't choose to remove EU VAT requirements?
To name but three.
Terrorism in NI will undoubtedly increase with the fracturing of the U.K. and the opportunity to force a United Ireland.
Or did you mean the new fancier terrorism?
Or were you just considering England again?
Cameron directly referred to an increased threat from IS. Can you make an irrefutable case for that assertion?
I apologise for answering your actual question.
With regards to your new question, I don't claim to know the mind of Cameron or IS leaders.
However the UK, thanks to slightly over half of its voters, has displayed to the world a rather ugly, far right leaning. Backing people like Farage and running campaigns on immigration with slogans and pictures like 'breaking point' aided by the the media's frankly disgusting campaign against immigration, and removed ourselves from the very institution set up to try and prevent European - and indeed global - conflict.
I think IS would draw quite a lot of encouragement and positive propoganda from those things. I think it might be seen as a victory to them which it sadly, probably is.
Might this translate to further attacks and increased support/activity, I don't think it would be preposterous or a lie to think so.
The points are moot really, politicians say what they have to and make predictions and forecasts, the leave camp have just relied on falsehoods so blatantly and with the kind of unashamed gall that has hallmarked the campaign.
Oddly people still swallow it and defend it more than the leave leaders themselves!!
Apparently the petition was started by a leave voter (before the referendum) 
Over half of the British electorate have displayed an 'ugly far right leaning'? I was going to write a longer post refuting your woolly conjectures, but you are clearly not worth my time. You've just condemned off 17 million people, just like that, simply because they have an opposing point of view.
And Remainers like to portray themselves as being smarter than us poor Leavers. Such conceit would be funny if it didn't seem to be so prevalent.
Not smarter, just better educated it seems;
- The older the voters, the more likely they were to have voted to leave the EU. Nearly three quarters (73%) of 18 to 24 year-olds voted to remain, falling to under two thirds (62%) among 35-44s. A majority of those aged over 45 voted to leave, rising to 60% of those aged 65 or over. Most people with children aged ten or under voted to remain; most of those with children aged 11 or older voted to leave.
- A majority of those working full-time or part-time voted to remain in the EU; most of those not working voted to leave. More than half of those retired on a private pension voted to leave, as did two thirds of those retired on a state pension.
- Among private renters and people with mortgages, a small majority (55% and 54%) voted to remain; those who owned their homes outright voted to leave by 55% to 45%. Around two thirds of council and housing association tenants voted to leave.
- A majority (57%) of those with a university degree voted to remain, as 64% of those with a higher degree and more than four in five (81%) of those still in full time education. Among those whose formal education ended at secondary school or earlier, a large majority voted to leave.
- White voters voted to leave the EU by 53% to 47%. Two thirds (67%) of those describing themselves as Asian voted to remain, as did three quarters (73%) of black voters. Nearly six in ten (58%) of those describing themselves as Christian voted to leave; seven in ten Muslims voted to remain.
A great many leave voters had very justifiable reasons, I'm absolutely sure, millions.
This vote however was won off the back of xenophobic pandering and anti-European, anti-immigration crusades. Appealing to the target market as can so clearly be seen, hats off to Bojo on that one. Dress it up however you like to justify your own vote, but let's not ignore the demographics.
Besides the point you have failed to make comment on whether Brexit by fracturing the UK and Europe and exposing a certain level of intolerance towards immigration and therefore by extension Muslims would be further fuel to the cause of IS; both in terms of a win for their anti-west agenda and further opportunity for radicalising propoganda.
After of course you completely ignored the terrorist element in NI of course, harder to argue I guess.
The thing is, the more the leave voters spout the same untruths, ignore the facts, and make people repeatedly explain the same things over and over (without actually comprehending)... They don't do much to dispel the idea that they are maybe a teeny bit dense...
Ah so of the two people you listened to the most, one voted remain and the other was neutral. Makes it easy to see how you decided to leave....
Ah so of the two people you listened to the most, one voted remain and the other was neutral. Makes it easy to see how you decided to leave....
That's right
Not the only 2 people I listened to though as you can see from the second paragraph. The following is an interesting watch too - granted, it's only been doing the rounds post-Brexit and it's not a guarantee about what will happen of course but he deals with the facts and explains in layman's terms which makes it easy to understand. Sadly this kind of simple analysis wasn't too readily available during the referendum campaign:Interesting. Especially when you consider that about 3 million Remainers don't appear to understand how democracy works, given that they've signed that petition calling for a second referendum. Oh, and not forgetting the gimp in the Leave camp that set it up in the first place.
And one of the conclusions you can take from that that is that equality of educational opportunity is vital. From the notoriously xenophobic and right wing Independent:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/e...ol-children-worst-hit-by-poverty-2069511.html
it's also worth pointing out that amongst the high percentage of "older" people voting leave far fewer will have degrees as there was far less opportunity for third level education for previous generations. It was not the norm as it is now (except for those of low socio economic status)
Throughout this thread, and all others pertaining to brexit, there's a sneering, elitist, middle class disgust being displayed for the leave vote which manifests itself in this portrayal of "leavers" as nothing more than thick working class morons (i'm leaving the "racism" stuff for another time) as though having had the privilege of an education makes their opinions more rounded and therefore more valid. Those of that ilk can feck off.
You and I must really stop agreeing - it's getting to be too much of a regular occurrence
It's not just this forum to be fair - there's been plenty of it on a certain other forum too plus the reaction I've seen from a few friends and one family member on FB has been nothing short of shocking, especially as I considered these people to be way more liberal-minded than me. Blanket accusations of bigotry aimed at all Leave voters yet the irony is that by not recognising the opinion of those that dared vote differently to them actually makes them a bigot.
The Guardian might not always be my newspaper of choice for me but there was a fantastic article in there the other day that involved trying to get to the root causes of how this came about - instead of being penned by some journalist in an ivory tower, it actually involved travelling the country and gauging opinion across a whole spectrum of the population:
http://www.theguardian.com/politics...ain-brexit-money-class-inequality-westminster
Sorry, but I cannot agree with this at all. I don't have the privilege of a fantastic education either. It's common sense not to make a decision that affects your children's future on something you don't know anything about. It's common sense not to ignore the vast majority of experts who do know what they're talking about and denounce everything that their educational opportunity provided to them and say it's 'fear mongering'. It's common sense to educate yourself on an issue that you're not knowledgeable on if you recognise that you're not knowledgeable on it.
An education does make your opinion more valid. That's why you go to a doctor for medical advice and not Barry from the pub. That's why you put your children into school rather than choosing to home school them unless you are qualified to do so. That's why the Bank of England set interest rates and Keith Lemon does not. It's the reason why qualifications even exist in the first place and the reason that I could never be prime minister. Saying that it's okay for people to feck up other peoples futures because a high percentage of them are lower educated therefore it's fine is bizarre. Instead of getting pissed off at someone pointing out that you're not knowledgeable on something, said person should concede "actually, they're right. I should perhaps listen to those who do have the benefit of extensive knowledge about this situation."
I completely agree with you that equality of educational opportunity is extremely important and is a problem that does need addressing, though it does not excuse ignorance in the meantime when we have the tools at our disposal to immediately give ourselves even an ounce of insight into an issue.
Is it still everyone's racist Grandmas being blamed? Should a lot of remain voters that are so upset for the future of the young people not consider that the vast, vast majority of young people couldn't be bothered to get off their arse, turn their playstation off and actually read into the pros and cons of leave/remain. Much less than half of people my age voted on one of the most important votes for a long time.
I mean I'm usually quite interested in Politics, especially when it's something big like a referedum or election. Even I'm getting a bit fed up now though, it's just a bunch of remain voters being bigoted to the working class that makes up the majority of Britain and a minority of working class acting like fecking idiots that fuels the prejudice towards us and it's a shame.
I mean I'm usually quite interested in Politics, especially when it's something big like a referedum or election. Even I'm getting a bit fed up now though, it's just a bunch of remain voters being bigoted to the working class that makes up the majority of Britain and a minority of working class acting like fecking idiots that fuels the prejudice towards us and it's a shame.
No matter how many times people post the Sky Data thing it still doesn't change the fact its rubbish.
I agree with you, i know a number of people who hold degrees in some very pointless areas who hold themselves in far too high regard over others because of this. I hold two degrees but i'd never presume to know more about an unrelated topic area because of my education alone. Experience is far more important.
I also think it's generational, the 18-24 group have never had so much information available to them and such a platform for them to gain attention by sharing their opinions to like-minded individuals. Facebook is a horrible platform for those with self-inflated worth to express their opinions as social warriors.
What makes you think I'm bothered? I actually find it totally laughable.
I mean that is the idea of education
I find the strand of anti-intellectualism from Leave far more worrying. As if anti-intellectualism has ever had a positive societal impact.
I think you're missing his point mate. He wasn't slating everyone with a decent education - just those with one that have been mocking those that voted to leave and tarring them all with the same racist/bigoted/thick brush. I've got first hand experience of this - my cousin is university educated and she went off on a despicably vitriolic rant after the result was announced. The thing is, she's a staunch Labour voter yet lives in a leafy Sussex suburb, has hardly done a day's work in her life, is married to a solicitor, and has openly mocked the city of her birth that she grew up in in the past. She always bangs on about politics but actually knows feck all about it, partly because she completely and utterly refuses to entertain an alternative opinion. When I explained to her yesterday that this makes her the very definition of a bigot she had no answer. What's utterly hilarious though is that she just follows whatever the current Labour leader says, and if Corbyn had actually stuck by the same anti-EU stance he's held for most of his political career she'd have been in the Vote Leave camp. She's got qualifications coming out of her ears but she's actually as thick as fecking pig shit.
Ok, but your cousin isn't representative of everyone with a 'decent education', as you put it... So I'm not even sure why it's relevant? Except as some kind of justification to assume that a person with 'decent education' can be like that? In which case, why would you do that?
I took his point to mean what I thought it said, which was that the notion that education gives you a more rounded view is rubbish when actually that's exactly what it does. We can all think of exceptions of smart people who don't have degrees and stupid people who have them but we can't pretend that it doesn't sway that way in general.
It's relevant insofar as she is a prime example of the people Barca84 was referring to. I think yourself and Zarlak are missing his point - it most definitely wasn't a swipe at all those with a good education. If he didn't explain it very clearly, then fair enough but as Smores said further up, there are a considerable number of people who have been educated to a high standard that know next to nothing about this subject matter yet are pontificating to others about it. In fact, plenty more 18-25 year olds have less of an interest in politics as when I was in that age bracket in the late 80's/early 90's.
It's not anti intellectualism in any way shape or form. So having a degree in, say, mechanical engineering is going to provide you with a more rounded view of a referendum debate than someone who has spent the equivalent amount of time working on the shop floor? It's this worrying strand of elitism that I'm concerned about.
As M18 has pointed out - my issue is with those who use education as some sort of tool to claim that their views are of more worth than those without. A formal academic education does not necessarily make your opinion more valid I'm afraid and your examples of seeking professional advice are irrelevant here. The public were asked a black and white question re membership of the EU. Each vote is as valid as the next. Are you suggesting that those without formal education should be excluded from democratic process? That without formal education and professional qualifications obtained that someone cannot be allowed to have their say on their own future? Disturbing to say the least.
It seems to me that a large % of the remain vote would like to see the elderly and those who haven't achieved a reasonable level of education as being members of our society to exclude from democratic process. To remove their voice. And to the extent that there is talk of how to resist this process. Frightening stuff really.
How about those whose job it is to inform and educate the public do a better job of it in the first place if they truly believe that huge swathes of leavers voted out of pure ignorance of "the facts" The onus is on them if that is what they think has transpired.
I voted remain by the way.
No but having a degree in anything gives you skills that make you more likely to form an enlightened opinion than someone without it.
Someone with a sociology degree, for example, might not be inherently more intelligent than someone without, nor would they know anything about economics necessarily. But they understand the process of constructing an argument and forming an opinion and are more likely to identify who they should trust than someone without. Critical thinking is something people should learn in school, but they don't thats not elitism, its just a recognition in how badly the education system here has let some down.