So the 3-5-2

He says he does not have specialist wingers but it's not like Young and Valencia are Roberto Carlos and Cafu, he doesn't have specialist wing backs either.

I think we will buy without a doubt, the club needs top four, money is available and if they continue to increase commercial income at the rate they are then they will only make massive amounts in the future so I do not think they are averse to spending another £100m.

Vidal will take too much of this, I would sooner sign 2 wingers and Rojo (CB that can play LB). Carrick should be fine as a number 6 and Herrera as an 8, Fletcher and Cleverley will just have to do as a back up, I would even try to sign a number 8 or 6 for around £10m that could do a job.

We could then play 4-3-3 with:

RVP and Welbeck as back up to Rooney

Januzaj and two new wingers like Di Maria and Cuadrado competing for those positions and then somebody else as fourth choice

Kagawa and Mata as a number 10 competition.

Herrera, Carrick, Fletcher, Cleverley and a De Jong like cheap central midfielder.

Rojo, Jones, Smalling, Evans and Blackett at centre back.

Our right back depth will be weak but Jones will just have to be second choice to Rafael.

I would be happy with that personally for this season.

The problem, LvG says his captain always plays. That means if he wants 4-3-3 then Rooney cannot be dropped even though Mata and RVP might be a stronger combination.
 
What is interesting is that I think most will agree we looked better on Saturday in the second half when we went to a 4-4-2. It didn't look like we were going to open up Swansea using the 3-5-2 and our goal actually come from a set piece but I think we looked more dangerous in the second half.

3-5-2 might be better when we have RvP back and fit and when Mata shows up and doesn't do his disappearing act. It designed to get the best out of those players but if they're aren't performing/playing then it's kinda pointless.
 
Empire said:
He says he does not have specialist wingers but it's not like Young and Valencia are Roberto Carlos and Cafu, he doesn't have specialist wing backs either.

I think we will buy without a doubt, the club needs top four, money is available and if they continue to increase commercial income at the rate they are then they will only make massive amounts in the future so I do not think they are averse to spending another £100m.

Vidal will take too much of this, I would sooner sign 2 wingers and Rojo (CB that can play LB). Carrick should be fine as a number 6 and Herrera as an 8, Fletcher and Cleverley will just have to do as a back up, I would even try to sign a number 8 or 6 for around £10m that could do a job.

We could then play 4-3-3 with:

RVP and Welbeck as back up to Rooney

Januzaj and two new wingers like Di Maria and Cuadrado competing for those positions and then somebody else as fourth choice

Kagawa and Mata as a number 10 competition.

Herrera, Carrick, Fletcher, Cleverley and a De Jong like cheap central midfielder.

Rojo, Jones, Smalling, Evans and Blackett at centre back.

Our right back depth will be weak but Jones will just have to be second choice to Rafael.

I would be happy with that personally for this season.

The problem, LvG says his captain always plays. That means if he wants 4-3-3 then Rooney cannot be dropped even though Mata and RVP might be a stronger combination.
Click to expand...

To be honest, I'm not sure there's room for Mata/Kagawa in a 4-3-3 the way that LVG plays it, or at least how he played it with Holland. (The last time he played 4-3-3 regularly before that was at Barca afaik, where the players were very different and so its hard to compare.)

For Holland Sneijder played deeper, in the middle 3 (same as Di Maria at Real last season). Up front he usually played a number 9 flanked by two attacking players who were more like wingers than number 10s. For us, I reckon Herrera is a much better bet for playing in midfield than Mata/Kagawa, since our league is pretty robust and you can't avoid doing some tackling and challenging.

As well as the well discussed paucity of quality on the wings, I think the fact that there would be no room for our record signing in 4-3-3 is part of the reason he's trying out 3-4-3. Not to say he wouldn't drop Mata if he thought he needed to, but he's only been here for a month now & to do so before he'd even seen him in action would be a pretty bold move.
 
bishblaize said:
To be honest, I'm not sure there's room for Mata/Kagawa in a 4-3-3 the way that LVG plays it, or at least how he played it with Holland. (The last time he played 4-3-3 regularly before that was at Barca afaik, where the players were very different and so its hard to compare.)

For Holland Sneijder played deeper, in the middle 3 (same as Di Maria at Real last season). Up front he usually played a number 9 flanked by two attacking players who were more like wingers than number 10s. For us, I reckon Herrera is a much better bet for playing in midfield than Mata/Kagawa, since our league is pretty robust and you can't avoid doing some tackling and challenging.

As well as the well discussed paucity of quality on the wings, I think the fact that there would be no room for our record signing in 4-3-3 is part of the reason he's trying out 3-4-3. Not to say he wouldn't drop Mata if he thought he needed to, but he's only been here for a month now & to do so before he'd even seen him in action would be a pretty bold move.
Click to expand...

http://www.ncsoccer.org/docs/education/coaches/u19_objective_creates_exercise.pdf

After reading that I got the impression whilst he does use very offensive wingers, he also likes preferably a shadow striker or playmaker as his number 10.

It's as if he plays 4-2-1-3.
 
Trigg said:
What is interesting is that I think most will agree we looked better on Saturday in the second half when we went to a 4-4-2. It didn't look like we were going to open up Swansea using the 3-5-2 and our goal actually come from a set piece but I think we looked more dangerous in the second half.

3-5-2 might be better when we have RvP back and fit and when Mata shows up and doesn't do his disappearing act. It designed to get the best out of those players but if they're aren't performing/playing then it's kinda pointless.
Click to expand...

No we didn't, it was just Swansea dropping deeper to defend their lead. If we were playing better the manager wouldn' have brought Fellaini on to chase the hoof balls. We still created nothing and the second goal we conceded was so typical of what we've been watching in the last couple of seasons.

The point is that it doesn't matter if you're playing 3-5-2 or 4-2-3-1 when you need half a day and a million sideways passes to get the ball out of your defense. If people think the formation is the problem i advise them to watch last season's games at OT and the Olympiacos away game.

Our problem was/is that playing with Mata, Kagawa or Rooney as #10s in a formation with one striker creates a huge gap between them and the two CMs, a gap none of Carrick, Fletcher and Cleverley can cover. That's what LvG tries to fix and provide safety at the back. Swansea's first goal was a product of childish mistakes and Fletcer being way out of position. Their second goal was a normality we've been watching for quite some time and we will continue to watch if we return to 4-2-3-1 with Carrick/Fletcher as holding midfielders and Mata as a #10.

Someone above posted a 4-4-2 diamond with Carrick at the bottom of the diamond and Mata at #10 and with Herrera-Di Maria as box to box midfielders. That's the only reason he'll drop the 3-5-2 imo and that's why Di Maria is the only player we have read in the press that he really wants to sign.
 
Trigg said:
What is interesting is that I think most will agree we looked better on Saturday in the second half when we went to a 4-4-2. It didn't look like we were going to open up Swansea using the 3-5-2 and our goal actually come from a set piece but I think we looked more dangerous in the second half.

3-5-2 might be better when we have RvP back and fit and when Mata shows up and doesn't do his disappearing act. It designed to get the best out of those players but if they're aren't performing/playing then it's kinda pointless.
Click to expand...

Not for me. We had a lot more structure in the first half. Our play was terribly slow and we didn't look like hurting Swansea its true.

But in the second half we just fell apart. There was no system or method that I could see. The tempo went up at the start of the second half, but the play didnt improve and long before the end we resorted to pinging long balls up for Fellaini to try and win knockdowns. That's a step backwards imo.

I do agree though that the system is designed for Mata/RvP/Rooney and it doesn't work for them there's no advantage to playing it.
 
What top team in recent club football has actually dominated with a 3-5-2? I can't think of a single example, except Juventus who were pretty weak in Europe last year
 
Playing three at the back is pointless against teams that play one up front, which is probably three quarters of the PL , and without proper wing backs who can actually defend or attack we are going to get caught out when we don't have the ball and create feck all when we do.

Some of the Netherlands games in the later stages of the world cup were incredibly dull, especially when Kuyt started to play in that wing back role. Kuyt is not a wing back and neither is Ashley Young.


Van Gaal says he prefers 4-3-3, if this is the case, then the players he is targeting at the moment will hopefully be for this system.
 
My guess is that with Rojo coming in we would move to a 4-3-3 with one of Smalling or Jones losing out (likely Smalling) and the following would equate to our starting 11:
DG, Jones, Evans, Rojo, Shaw, Herrera, Fletcher, A N Other, Mata, Rooney, RVP.

That doesn't look all that terrible even if Kagawa comes in for A N Other. There's a smidgeon of hope.
 
Dans said:
My guess is that with Rojo coming in we would move to a 4-3-3 with one of Smalling or Jones losing out (likely Smalling) and the following would equate to our starting 11:
DG, Jones, Evans, Rojo, Shaw, Herrera, Fletcher, A N Other, Mata, Rooney, RVP.

That doesn't look all that terrible even if Kagawa comes in for A N Other. There's a smidgeon of hope.
Click to expand...

No pace in that attack, huge problem
 
Dans said:
My guess is that with Rojo coming in we would move to a 4-3-3 with one of Smalling or Jones losing out (likely Smalling) and the following would equate to our starting 11:
DG, Jones, Evans, Rojo, Shaw, Herrera, Fletcher, A N Other, Mata, Rooney, RVP.

That doesn't look all that terrible even if Kagawa comes in for A N Other. There's a smidgeon of hope.
Click to expand...
Yeah it does. We still need a CB and one or 2 CMs. feck, we're doomed.
 
Unless we can get a top drawer midfielder next to Herrera in midfield and more depth in defense I don't see us pursuing it for that long. 433 might be a better fit, even though that means Van Persie or Rooney will miss out a bit and Mata will obviously not play in his most desired position.

The system requires both quick passing and quick movement, which is something which was lacking on Saturday. It also asks a huge amount of our wing backs, which is OK when it's Rafael and Shaw, but there was hardly any pace on offer on Saturday, and no one buy Januzaj capable of beating his man.

I think if we were to buy Di Maria or an attacker of that ilk we'd scrap the 352 for now.
 
3-5-2 for me will only work with Welbeck on the pitch. Rafael and Shaw will no doubt give us decent width but unless you have someone up front to counter with pace it all becomes very easy to defend against.
You'd think Hernandez would love it but he just doesn't provide the threat he uses to.
 
Smores said:
3-5-2 for me will only work with Welbeck on the pitch. Rafael and Shaw will no doubt give us decent width but unless you have someone up front to counter with pace it all becomes very easy to defend against.
You'd think Hernandez would love it but he just doesn't provide the threat he uses to.
Click to expand...

Hernandez has the pace, his link up play though ranges from terrible to average. I agree that Welbeck alongside Rooney or Van Persie would be a better fit than the two star strikers up top in a team without pace.
 
Dans said:
My guess is that with Rojo coming in we would move to a 4-3-3 with one of Smalling or Jones losing out (likely Smalling) and the following would equate to our starting 11:
DG, Jones, Evans, Rojo, Shaw, Herrera, Fletcher, A N Other, Mata, Rooney, RVP.

That doesn't look all that terrible even if Kagawa comes in for A N Other. There's a smidgeon of hope.
Click to expand...

I don't honestly think you can play a 4-3-3 with RvP, Rooney, Mata up front. Too narrow and too slow.
 
bishblaize said:
I don't honestly think you can play a 4-3-3 with RvP, Rooney, Mata up front. Too narrow and too slow.
Click to expand...
I don't think you can play any formation with those 3 up front to be honest.
Rooney/Mata behind RvP with wide forwards ala Januzaj/Di Maria is the way forward imo but it requires a much stronger midfield/defence.
Unbalanced is a very fair statement from LvG
 
Dans said:
Point. Can't see us solving that any time soon - requires a change in the Mata, RVP or Rooney positions.
Click to expand...

We have could sign Di Maria, then there is Januzaj and Wellbeck... its not about putting stars players on the pitch, its about picking the right team.
 
The problem in the first half on Saturday was getting the ball out from the back, young was so static, he didn't drop deep enough for Blackett to get the ball to him, so he passed time and time again to Smalling who passed to Jones and then back again.
 
Cassidy said:
We have could sign Di Maria, then there is Januzaj and Wellbeck... its not about putting stars players on the pitch, its about picking the right team.
Click to expand...

You don't think really that Van Gaal, or anyone for that matter, will leave out Mata, RVP or Rooney do you?
 
Dans said:
You don't think really that Van Gaal, or anyone for that matter, will leave out Mata, RVP or Rooney do you?
Click to expand...

Mou did. (Mata)

Anyway I don't understand why one can't sit on the bench if it makes the team better, if there is a system where we can play all of them then fine that is of course the best outcome. However if we signed Di Maria and one of those 3 had to sit on the bench for him I wouldn't cry, they all lack pace.

Fergie: benched Rooney against Real Madrid in the UCL

Bayern: Had Gotze on the bench quite a few times last season

Did you see the Real Madrid bench in the super cup last week?

Also City had the following Strikers last season: Dzeko, Aguero, Jovetic & Negredo fighting for 2 positions.

Nobody should be guaranteed a starting 11 position.
 
I did oppose the idea of this 1-3-5-2 system in the past, but after seeing it worked so well in pre-season, i realized that it can be our go to formation in all competition. Under this system, we went unbeaten and played some of our best football in years in pre-season. We do not need to change it just to incorporate Di Maria in a forward role, for the reason that he can be almost as effective in a fullback role. We just need the right players on the pitch and those players are not Hernandez as a strikers, Lingard as a fullback, Fellaini as a holding midfielder, Anderson, etc., and Herrera without giving him a free midfield role or protective shield behind him.
 
The problem I have with the 3-5-2 is that it's ended up with us playing a 2 in midfield again!

In theory, Mata should be the extra man in midfield, but he doesn't have the defensive nous to do that job. And the spare CB should be there to pick up any unmarked runners, but Smalling couldn't do it on his own with nobody ahead of him.

What we had on Saturday was Fletcher and Herrera defending the middle of the pitch on their own. It was even more lightweight than last season.
 
hebegebe said:
The problem in the first half on Saturday was getting the ball out from the back, young was so static, he didn't drop deep enough for Blackett to get the ball to him, so he passed time and time again to Smalling who passed to Jones and then back again.
Click to expand...

That was the problem indeed but it wasn't Young's fault. When you are in possession the attacking shape of the 3-5-2 requires the WBs to operate as midfielders, otherwise you invite more pressure from the opponents.

Our CBs alongside Herrera/Fletcher and De Gea looked very nervous on the ball. They were always passing the ball sideways or backwards or they would try long balls forward. They also needed too much time on the ball before deciding what to do. It's a shame because if they'd perfomed at 50-60% of what they showed in preseason we would've probably got the three points.
 
Cassidy said:
Mou did. (Mata)

Anyway I don't understand why one can't sit on the bench if it makes the team better, if there is a system where we can play all of them then fine that is of course the best outcome. However if we signed Di Maria and one of those 3 had to sit on the bench for him I wouldn't cry, they all lack pace.

Fergie: benched Rooney against Real Madrid in the UCL

Bayern: Had Gotze on the bench quite a few times last season

Did you see the Real Madrid bench in the super cup last week?

Also City had the following Strikers last season: Dzeko, Aguero, Jovetic & Negredo fighting for 2 positions.

Nobody should be guaranteed a starting 11 position.
Click to expand...
But we are not in the same league as those teams where finances are concerned - we are becoming a penny pinching club in comparison and I cannot for the life of me see any manager at United under these owners leaving 30m talent on the bench.

I don't disagree that we lack pace. But to solve that the new United way will not be to buy in and drop star names to the bench.

We need to sell and therein lies our problem - we won't get rid of Rooney (shame), RVP will not be sold, especially now Van Gaal is there, and how ridiculous would they look if they sold club record signing Mata after only 6 months.

3-5-2 is actually the only way to get some pace into this team without upsetting the apple cart. The 3 aforementioned can stay, we bring in Shaw on the left, another on the right, a CB and a CM and it could work.
 
Dans said:
But we are not in the same league as those teams where finances are concerned - we are becoming a penny pinching club in comparison and I cannot for the life of me see any manager at United under these owners leaving 30m talent on the bench.

I don't disagree that we lack pace. But to solve that the new United way will not be to buy in and drop star names to the bench.

We need to sell and therein lies our problem - we won't get rid of Rooney (shame), RVP will not be sold, especially now Van Gaal is there, and how ridiculous would they look if they sold club record signing Mata after only 6 months.

3-5-2 is actually the only way to get some pace into this team without upsetting the apple cart. The 3 aforementioned can stay, we bring in Shaw on the left, another on the right, a CB and a CM and it could work.
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I don't see what finances have to do with it, players fight for positions based on form. Doesn't matter if you cost 30m or 15m, if you are not performing you should be dropped.
 


I think Carragher is basically right here. The reason 3 at the back isn't played more is not so much that players don't fit the system, but more that it when the other team has 1 up front it's kryptonite, and pretty much everyone plays 1 up front these days.

The fact that there don't seem to be a lot of wide centre backs who can thrive in that role is more about the fact that when the other team has 9 or 10 men behind the ball behind 3 CB's, the CB's look ahead and it's 7 vs 9 or 7 vs 10 ( 7 vs 11 really with the opposing keeper able to come out and grab overhit long balls) and it's just too hard to squeeze passes in for most footballers, whatever position they play, apart from the very, very good passers.

It is possible to get better at it over time, and their comfort obviously varies, with someone like Blackett much more capable or it as a very young player than Smalling will likely ever be, for example.

If we have to squeeze Mata, Rooney and RVP in the lineup (and we don't), I'd rather see Pellegrini's 4-4-2 (which isn't a million miles away from some of what Van Gaal did at Alkmaar):

-------Rooney-------RVP----------
--Kagawa/Mata--------Januzaj/Mata
-------Herrera---NEWCM---------
Shaw---------------------Rafael/Valencia
--------Rojo-------Evans----------
--------------De Gea--------------

If Mata goes, Herrera would be a perfect fit at the top of a diamond like Italy used for much of Euro 2012, but we'd need 2-3 new midfielders, so that makes even less sense when you look at our squad.

3-5-2 will work really well against teams who don't press very high but want to dominate possession and against teams playing 2 right up front. Other than that, it's far more trouble than it's worth.

Another option, which won't happen, is just to sell RVP because he's older and Rooney-Mata is our central attacking partnership going forward, or at least loan him out this year as part exchange for the right player in return (Juventus for Vidal, Madrid for Khedira or Di Maria) with him getting CL football for the year and he can come back next year when we have an extra 10-12 games and there's enough for him and Rooney.

Finally, there's the option of using Rooney as a left-winger and hoping he figures it out, which I sort of think he would. He wouldn't have to do a ton of defending, and he's not bad at defending out wide anyways and if he doesn't want to finish 7th again he'll honour his responsibility as the captain and work his ass off there and figure out how to get double digit goals from the wing without top-end pace like Pires did.

--------------RVP-----------
Rooney---Mata/Kagawa----Januzaj
------Herrera---CM--------
Shaw-------------------Rafael
-------Rojo-----Evans------
------------De Gea----------

That lineup requires only one transfer (assuming Rojo is done) and it's good enough to pip Liverpool for 4th. Is the 3-5-2?
 
NoPace said:


I think Carragher is basically right here. The reason 3 at the back isn't played more is not so much that players don't fit the system, but more that it when the other team has 1 up front it's kryptonite, and pretty much everyone plays 1 up front these days.

The fact that there don't seem to be a lot of wide centre backs who can thrive in that role is more about the fact that when the other team has 9 or 10 men behind the ball behind 3 CB's, the CB's look ahead and it's 7 vs 9 or 7 vs 10 ( 7 vs 11 really with the opposing keeper able to come out and grab overhit long balls) and it's just too hard to squeeze passes in for most footballers, whatever position they play, apart from the very, very good passers.

It is possible to get better at it over time, and their comfort obviously varies, with someone like Blackett much more capable or it as a very young player than Smalling will likely ever be, for example.

If we have to squeeze Mata, Rooney and RVP in the lineup (and we don't), I'd rather see Pellegrini's 4-4-2 (which isn't a million miles away from some of what Van Gaal did at Alkmaar):

-------Rooney-------RVP----------
--Kagawa/Mata--------Januzaj/Mata
-------Herrera---NEWCM---------
Shaw---------------------Rafael/Valencia
--------Rojo-------Evans----------
--------------De Gea--------------

If Mata goes, Herrera would be a perfect fit at the top of a diamond like Italy used for much of Euro 2012, but we'd need 2-3 new midfielders, so that makes even less sense when you look at our squad.

3-5-2 will work really well against teams who don't press very high but want to dominate possession and against teams playing 2 right up front. Other than that, it's far more trouble than it's worth.

Another option, which won't happen, is just to sell RVP because he's older and Rooney-Mata is our central attacking partnership going forward, or at least loan him out this year as part exchange for the right player in return (Juventus for Vidal, Madrid for Khedira or Di Maria) with him getting CL football for the year and he can come back next year when we have an extra 10-12 games and there's enough for him and Rooney.

Finally, there's the option of using Rooney as a left-winger and hoping he figures it out, which I sort of think he would. He wouldn't have to do a ton of defending, and he's not bad at defending out wide anyways and if he doesn't want to finish 7th again he'll honour his responsibility as the captain and work his ass off there and figure out how to get double digit goals from the wing without top-end pace like Pires did.

--------------RVP-----------
Rooney---Mata/Kagawa----Januzaj
------Herrera---CM--------
Shaw-------------------Rafael
-------Rojo-----Evans------
------------De Gea----------

That lineup requires only one transfer (assuming Rojo is done) and it's good enough to pip Liverpool for 4th. Is the 3-5-2?
Click to expand...


I actually thought the most important comment made about the 3-5-2 on MNF was about Mata's culpability in the first goal.



If, as Gary points out, Mata drops in during the build up to Swansea's first they don't score. Swansea scored against the run of play. If Mata does his job we grind them down slowly and win.

But that's the thing with this system. You can't afford lapses in concentration.

At the World Cup people said Sneijder was ineffective, but he was rarely caught out on a turn of play like Mata was.

Playing in that number 10 role Mata has to do more, he can't just become a third forward. In some ways, looking at Gary's analysis of the way we let in that first goal, Mata there confirms Mou's suspicion of him: more talented than Oscar maybe but not as defensively useful/aware/hard working.
 
Empire said:
He says he does not have specialist wingers but it's not like Young and Valencia are Roberto Carlos and Cafu, he doesn't have specialist wing backs either.

I think we will buy without a doubt, the club needs top four, money is available and if they continue to increase commercial income at the rate they are then they will only make massive amounts in the future so I do not think they are averse to spending another £100m.

Vidal will take too much of this, I would sooner sign 2 wingers and Rojo (CB that can play LB). Carrick should be fine as a number 6 and Herrera as an 8, Fletcher and Cleverley will just have to do as a back up, I would even try to sign a number 8 or 6 for around £10m that could do a job.

We could then play 4-3-3 with:

RVP and Welbeck as back up to Rooney

Januzaj and two new wingers like Di Maria and Cuadrado competing for those positions and then somebody else as fourth choice

Kagawa and Mata as a number 10 competition.

Herrera, Carrick, Fletcher, Cleverley and a De Jong like cheap central midfielder.

Rojo, Jones, Smalling, Evans and Blackett at centre back.

Our right back depth will be weak but Jones will just have to be second choice to Rafael.

I would be happy with that personally for this season.

The problem, LvG says his captain always plays. That means if he wants 4-3-3 then Rooney cannot be dropped even though Mata and RVP might be a stronger combination.
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the midfield in 433 isn't called as a number 10 role anymore. Number 10 role means you play behind striker, in the hole. It's the connection between centre midfield and striker. Kagawa and Mata aren't suitable for 433. But we can force them to be and see if they can adapt. If they can't well, we might need to sell them for the sake of the 433.
 
352 can still work. But it won't work every single matches we play. We should use 4 in the back. 352 should be the backup if we have injuries or against some big teams who depends on their midfields.
 
NoPace said:


--------------RVP-----------
Rooney---Mata/Kagawa----Januzaj
------Herrera---CM--------
Shaw-------------------Rafael
-------Rojo-----Evans------
------------De Gea----------

That lineup requires only one transfer (assuming Rojo is done) and it's good enough to pip Liverpool for 4th. Is the 3-5-2?
Click to expand...


Funnily enough, imo, the clue is in your name. Pace is a trait that's required in all systems and we haven't got enough of it. Look at Liverpool - Suarez, Sterling, Sturridge, all three were rapid as hell. Chelsea - Willian, Hazard, to some extent Schürrle, Arsenal had Ox, Walcott, to some extent Podolski and City had Navas and Agüero but as well probably the best midfield in the game. Who we had? Danny and Januzaj - who isn't as rapid as some of the wingers mentioned above. I'm not adding Valencia here because he he has been immensely fruitless as of recent and even if he's got the pace, he's afraid to beat his man.

Playing Rooney on the wing is a suicide there. Not only he'd be unhappy with the role ( because we all know he would ) but we'd lack pace. Whenever we'd like to hit somebody on the counter, they'd be sorted with their defensive positioning by the time we're at the half line, it has happened a lot before. In recent years, how many counters have we executed that ended up with a goal ? You know, counters like the famous one against Arsenal ? But it's not only about counters. If you're playing little triangles somewhere and try to release one of your players with a through ball or a lob, you want to do it with certain amount of power so you can fool the defender, so you need somebody who's fast enough to get to this ball and not be offside at the same time.

For the same reason, of course, it hits us with the 3-5-2 formation. When have we looked the best with it? When Danny has played. When we've had somebody who can be released by a defender with a ball behind the defenders, who's got enough power and pace to press opposition, get to the ball and do something with it. The front trio in 3-5-2, to me, seem to be required to form their very own formation, very own play between the trio, sometimes looking separate from midfield duo or wingbacks. And for that little play between the three, you need 3 top-notch technical players. Hernandez isn't as good in that role as Danny or RVP will be. It's this three that will sometimes simply have to rely on their own skill and ability to open up defences with a positional play and quick 1-2. Though I'm afraid that we'll still struggle without pace. Even if you look at LVG's Holland team, they've had Robben up front who was immensely rapid. Is either RVP or Rooney as fast as Robben was? No. And for that reason I think that we'll struggle with either 4-3-3 or 3-5-2, that's unless we add some pace. A player with pace who can beat his man.
 
Carragher is spot on there, its not all that much different from a modern day fullback. The big difference though is that you need centre backs who are comfortable defending in wide area's because they are going to consistently be asked to cover the fullback whenever he decides to go forward and this will lead to the centre back facing wingers when teams play the ball in that space quickly after wining the ball. The system requires a lot of intelligent cover defence from the back three that I don't think our players are capable off. The sweeper in the system needs to know where he should be covering at which times and if he goes to the wrong this will lead to problems. As a RCB I think Jones will get it done however I don't se any other CB at this club with that level of 1 on 1 defending capabilities.

IMO we just don't have the defenders or midfielders to successfully pull this system off so im concerned as to why we're even trying it. We also need 3 in midfield and not 2 which is essential what we're attempting to do. What in fact we are playing is a 3-4-3 and not a 3-5-2 which is just going to hurt us in the long run.
 
JSMHE said:
the midfield in 433 isn't called as a number 10 role anymore. Number 10 role means you play behind striker, in the hole. It's the connection between centre midfield and striker. Kagawa and Mata aren't suitable for 433. But we can force them to be and see if they can adapt. If they can't well, we might need to sell them for the sake of the 433.
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Louis van Gaal disagrees with you my friend, he calls his preferred formation the 4-3-3 with the point forward. It should have been obvious that's what I mean't!

http://www.ncsoccer.org/docs/education/coaches/u19_objective_creates_exercise.pdf
 
No more excuses for LVG if he chooses to buy a fourth centre back instead of a winger. We already have Januzaj, Nani, Mata, Rooney, Welbeck, Kagawa and Young who could play as wingers so I don't buy the excuse of him not being able to play his preferred 4-3-3.

It really goes from being a forced 5-3-2 to him choosing it if he goes for an expensive CB signing as there is no turning back from there. If we get two wingers last year we will have four centre backs for no reason at all.
 
JSMHE said:
In the pdf, nothing says if 3 midfield in 433 was number 10 role. Or did I missed the word of number 10 role?
Click to expand...

Do you know what a diagram is?

Also:

The problem lies predominantly in the covering through of the number 10. “Against three strikers our number 10 will always be able to cover through, because I am one of the only coaches who believes three defenders is enough to cover the last line, by means of accurate sagging and shifting.
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This information is important to determine whether you, as a coach, can decide to play 1v1 and whether your number 10 can function as a second striker.”
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“It may also occur that we constrain the opponent entirely by moving in our number 10. We then play 1v1 across the entire field.”
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Look at Diagram 1, that is the 4-3-3 with the point forward. Look at Diagram 2, that is the 4-3-3 with the point backwards.

This is primary school stuff, honestly!

I can't believe you read that PDF yet you didn't even understand what was going on! Louis van Gaal's preferred formation with 4-3-3 has the point forward, it uses a number 10 like Wayne Rooney to function as second striker or like Mata to function as a playmaker. I can't believe we are debating this :lol:

Diagram 1 says it all.
 
JSMHE said:
the midfield in 433 isn't called as a number 10 role anymore. Number 10 role means you play behind striker, in the hole. It's the connection between centre midfield and striker. Kagawa and Mata aren't suitable for 433. But we can force them to be and see if they can adapt. If they can't well, we might need to sell them for the sake of the 433.
Click to expand...

Van Gaal just seems to call it a 4-3-3 when he's in fact talking about a 4-2-3-1.

I have seen him refer to United, Dutch and Bayern 4-2-3-1 systems as 4-3-3's.
 
JSMHE said:
the midfield in 433 isn't called as a number 10 role anymore. Number 10 role means you play behind striker, in the hole. It's the connection between centre midfield and striker. Kagawa and Mata aren't suitable for 433. But we can force them to be and see if they can adapt. If they can't well, we might need to sell them for the sake of the 433.
Click to expand...
What about a 4-2-3-1 with Mata behind a striker?
 
Empire said:
Do you know what a diagram is?

Also:







Look at Diagram 1, that is the 4-3-3 with the point forward. Look at Diagram 2, that is the 4-3-3 with the point backwards.

This is primary school stuff, honestly!

I can't believe you read that PDF yet you didn't even understand what was going on! Louis van Gaal's preferred formation with 4-3-3 has the point forward, it uses a number 10 like Wayne Rooney to function as second striker or like Mata to function as a playmaker. I can't believe we are debating this :lol:

Diagram 1 says it all.
Click to expand...

The diagram doesn't look like a number 10 role to me. More likely as a central role in triangle trio.
I didn't even bother reading the whole pdf. Only see read "point forward". That's why I was asking you.
My point is number 10 role isn't included with 3 midfield in 433. The midfield are more central. The pdf and diagram doesn't explain anything.

Honestly this is not primary school stuff. LOL
 
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