Social cohesion post-Brexit: let 'em rot?

Jippy

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Brexit fallout is becoming a mega-thread. What interests me now is how the UK moves forward.
Sunderland voted 61% in favour of out. They'll be first to moan if they lose their 6,700 Nissan jobs.
Ditto Yorkshire, Cornwall and Wales bleating about their lost subsidies when all strongly voted out.
How do you get past this? Their sense of entitlement is they want the same or more. Can we really say feck you Thatcher-style and throw thousands more on the scrapheap.
Do wonder if the UK will survive as we know it. No unity.
 
Think we'll quickly agree to join the EEA and crises in many ways will be averted.

But the leavers won't be thinking "phew, thank god for that" they will be fuming cause they voted to stop free movement, not leave the EU.

What happens to society then when everyone feels lied to? Scary stuff.
 
I've been wondering this ever since the vote. My normal response would be to want to tackle the problem with the standard tools of the left: infrastructure investment, education, wealth redistribution etc, but I don't think it's going to be possible to win an election from the left in Britain for a long time.

Labour's traditional working-class voters in the north have deserted them on the referendum. Scotland is voting SNP and could well leave the UK. And above all the party has awful leadership and doesn't know what it is trying to accomplish.

I have no good answers right now.
 
I have two friends I can't bring myself to talk to at the moment. This is gonna cause enormous division.
 
They wanted it, so tough. Deal with it, as far as I'm concerned.
 
Bidders are already abandoning Tata Steel. Wales gets enormous funding from EU, thats gone too.
I'm still angry so I'm still in the let them suffer mood.
 
I have two friends I can't bring myself to talk to at the moment. This is gonna cause enormous division.
Exact same scenario I'm in. Didn't even know they felt that way until the day before and then after the vote.

One said and I quote, "I identify with UKIP more than any other political party". I honesty felt sick.

Seems extreme but my opinion has changed 180 on them. I knew they weren't clued into politics but feck me, I didn't think they were that flippant about issues.

As for the wider context - I feel sorry for so many people feeling they had to do this because they feel so little of themselves. So little of themselves they can't compete with whoever else is in their job sector or achieve what they want in this life. They've been duped - some still refuse to acknowledge it but they'll know soon enough they've been had. In doing so, causinh mass uncertainty over 2/3 years for the rest of us.

In general my attitude to the "leavers" is, get fecked, selfish delusional pricks who are too fecking lazy to read up properly on a serious issue. They deserve what's coming to them. Oh and the baby boomers can kiss my ass too - ungrateful cnuts.
 
I've been wondering this ever since the vote. My normal response would be to want to tackle the problem with the standard tools of the left: infrastructure investment, education, wealth redistribution etc, but I don't think it's going to be possible to win an election from the left in Britain for a long time.

Labour's traditional working-class voters in the north have deserted them on the referendum. Scotland is voting SNP and could well leave the UK. And above all the party has awful leadership and doesn't know what it is trying to accomplish.

I have no good answers right now.
I'm a natural Tory voter but won't vote for BJ/Gove. Labour is least credible when it is needed most. Feels like the whole country is ripping itself apart.
My mother is happy- she voted for out, up in E Yorks and says it shows how the rest of the country feels about London, and in turn, the EU.
Feels like we are on the brink of something drastic and bad.
 
I'm a natural Tory voter but won't vote for BJ/Gove. Labour is least credible when it is needed most. Feels like the whole country is ripping itself apart.
My mother is happy- she voted for out, up in E Yorks and says it shows how the rest of the country feels about London, and in turn, the EU.
Feels like we are on the brink of something drastic and bad.
I'm starting to wonder whether Labour (under a new leader) can strike some sort of pact with the Greens, Lib Dems and maybe even the SNP (if we have an election before Scottish independence kicks into gear). Go all out as a loose progressive coalition. I'm really worried about a bonfire of employment rights and environmental protections by a hard-right Tory party after we leave the EU.
 
What's really interesting is the huge division in both class but also age. If this starts to unravel then I have no idea what the younger generations will do to be honest. I just know that I'm angry and fed up of having to deal with yet more fecking shit in my lifetime. It seems like one thing after another at the moment.

Does rather feel like it's an us v them.
 
I'm starting to wonder whether Labour (under a new leader) can strike some sort of pact with the Greens, Lib Dems and maybe even the SNP (if we have an election before Scottish independence kicks into gear). Go all out as a loose progressive coalition. I'm really worried about a bonfire of employment rights and environmental protections by a hard-right Tory party after we leave the EU.
If I was labour, I would seriously consider seeing if the Lib Dems would agree to a 7 year merger to try and produce an actual opposition. But then, I don't think thats a normal response.

I think the right are going to be the ones to sort it out.
 
What's really interesting is the huge division in both class but also age. If this starts to unravel then I have no idea what the younger generations will do to be honest. I just know that I'm angry and fed up of having to deal with yet more fecking shit in my lifetime. It seems like one thing after another at the moment.

Does rather feel like it's an us v them.
Only because you made it that way.
 
What @RedSky personally? Voting patterns indicate there was a significant difference.
No. Both remain and leave made it anow us vs them situation which has escalated by the remain reaction to the Leave vote.
 
Well yes. I don't support far right politics. That's what this became (thanks to Farage).
I don't care if you don't support far right politics. The way you are acting towards disillusioned voters who were lied to by the Leave campaign is wrong.
 
I think he's blaming the Remainers. Not overly sure though. Care to explain your point @Gol123 ?
I'm blaming both sides. I'm saying retainers with the better education should deal with this better though.
 
They wanted it, so tough. Deal with it, as far as I'm concerned.
Yep. Let them suffer for as long as it takes until they're prepared to admit their mistakes and have a second referendum.

Lovely. As a remain voter having that attitude will certainly compensate me for the hardships ahead.
 
I don't care if you don't support far right politics. The way you are acting towards disillusioned voters who were lied to by the Leave campaign is wrong.

Wait a minute, are you saying we should be sympathetic and baby them? Isn't that the exact opposite of what right wing people believe in? Don't they prefer facts and absence of emotion and feelings in their discourse?

Feck them. Idiots and deserve to be called as such.
 
No. Both remain and leave made it anow us vs them situation which has escalated by the remain reaction to the Leave vote.

Think it would have escalated regardless largely because of the the fact there is a clear divide in how people voted.

Lies from Leave and fear-mongering from Remain definitely didn't help. I can understand why you think remainers should be handling it better since they are better educated but that's double edged sword. A significant proportion are young and feel like their future has had a huge dent while those that are better educated perhaps can't believe people refused to listen to experts and would rather listen to what they hear from the UKIP fella down the pub.
 
I'm going to speak what's on my heart and mind right now - it is probably overly dramatic and I'm sure plenty will raise eyebrows but I can't help how I feel.

Firstly, I'm British. I was born here. But my ethnic origin is Indian. Maybe I'm in a very small minority, but for the first time in my life I genuinely feel hesitant, for use of a better word, that I'm not welcome here. I know that's a massive overreaction and probably not true, but believe me I've thought on it and tried to shake it, but for the first time I have a voice in the back of my head that is telling me, making me doubt for the first time, whether i belong here. I look at people when I board the train and wonder what they're thinking. I walk the streets and I wonder if anyone's thought in their mind, "I wish he wasn't here".

Secondly, I'm openly a labour voter normally. I very much believe that if I'm wealthy, and I earn well, then a fair share of my wealth should be taken to help the poorer less well off. That's not to say I enjoy paying taxes, who does? But I'm comfortable and morally happy in feeling I should do my bit. That's changed. Some voters voted leave because they have read the facts and made up their mind. No problem. Some voted leave because of personal experience which has affected them and their view. No problem. But some voted as a feck you to establishment. Some voted because they look at the glamour and wealth of London (where I work) with disgust and jealousy. Some voted because they just wanted to kick those who work hard and pay their fair share in the teeth. This has changed my view. Londons wealth is what drives everyone else's economies. I'm the first to know and admit that the wealth London generates isn't distributed fairly, let's say, over the country. And I know that many decisions are with London in mind at the neglect of the rest of the country. Yet, these voters seem to forget that if they hit London, they only will get hit about 50x as hard. Yet just to put their ego on top, they wanted it. They did it. And now, I think, feck this shit tax that I pay to help some of these people, however small a portion gets to them. If they want to give us the finger, perhaps it's time I did too.

Finally, putting aside the economics of it all, it deeply upsets me that the people whom I live near, share the same town, county, and country with, have become so insular. So inward looking. So nationalist. I believe in embracing cultures, embracing people, embracing the world. Working together trying to make it a better place in all that. It feels like we have turned our back on these principles that I believe in so deeply.

Bottom line, there is a huge divide. And frankly when I think of those people from Sunderland who are poor and don't get much support or jobs, I think feck you too. Go and rot.

I hate I feel that way. But sadly, I do. I think that if Boris does come in, and god knows I would hate it, I think of these people who voted in this way with a smirk knowing that they will get absolutely screwed over by this.

I genuinely think the divide between London especially and some other parts of the U.K. is simply too big to fix. The gulf in fundamental beliefs is so significant that it's almost like it's not the same country. In fact I would go as far as saying it's more different than some whole countries are from one another.

It's significant. And something has to happen. It might not be now, but one day it'll be enough is enough and we will have a real issue.

One day on, I thought I'd have calmed a bit. But I haven't. I still feel insecure in my "wantedness" here. I still think so badly of those wankers who voted leave for the wrong reasons. And I can't stand the idea of someone voting leave.

We could be in a world where Trump and BoJo are leaders of two great countries. What a shame that'd be, and how scary, too.
 
I'm starting to wonder whether Labour (under a new leader) can strike some sort of pact with the Greens, Lib Dems and maybe even the SNP (if we have an election before Scottish independence kicks into gear). Go all out as a loose progressive coalition. I'm really worried about a bonfire of employment rights and environmental protections by a hard-right Tory party after we leave the EU.
Part of me feels a hard right would negotiate a better deal than a ragbag leftist coalition, but yeah, at some cost.
Wow, it's weird to think that the EU was a kind of crappy glue that just about held us all together.
Lovely. As a remain voter having that attitude will certainly compensate me for the hardships ahead.
Yep, it's crazy. It is actually tearing households apart and creating the biggest inter-generational divide ever.
 
Don't worry, we're not fecking agreeing to leaving the EU.

Wait a minute, are you saying we should be sympathetic and baby them? Isn't that the exact opposite of what right wing people believe in? Don't they prefer facts and absence of emotion and feelings in their discourse?

Feck them. Idiots and deserve to be called as such.

Think it would have escalated regardless largely because of the the fact there is a clear divide in how people voted.

Lies from Leave and fear-mongering from Remain definitely didn't help. I can understand why you think remainers should be handling it better since they are better educated but that's double edged sword. A significant proportion are young and feel like their future has had a huge dent while those that are better educated perhaps can't believe people refused to listen to experts and would rather listen to what they hear from the UKIP fella down the pub.
You got to understand, these voters aren't right wing or left wing. They political agendas or view points. They don't understand past their immediate lives.

There are two voters who voted leave: Baby bloomers and Lower class.

Baby bloomers were born just after/during the war. You have to remember, growing up, they were likely told lots of stories and narratives about how the Germans were evil and scum, due to their parents living/dying in the war. This creates a lot of resentment towards Germans and to a lesser extent a less tolerant attitude to non Britons. To them, the idea of co-operating with what is seemingly a German lead Nation state (A lot of leave voters believe that the Germans are trying to take over using the EU) is just not going to happen. They were also brought up on the coat tails of the greatest generation. They were told how Britain was great and how we beat everybody. This naturally gives them a sort of elitism about their own self worth and a sense of entitlement. Because remember, most of these people are fairly uneducated, meaning they are much more susceptible to these sort of nationalist ideals. Very rarely did they get qualifications past GCSE equivalentso ( O levels).

Lower class cannot see the forest from the trees. They don't understand the implications of political decisions and the effects on the economy. All they see is that their life isn't good and it should be better. Bearing in mind that most of these people are taught the same lessons by their parents (Baby bloomers) about nationalist pride and you can see where their sense of entitlement comes from. Also, they often are competing against immigration for jobs, housing and benefits. When immigrants do well it's often at their expense and they only see it as the immigrants taking from them and not from the economic side (Which is that immigration helps grow the economy). It doesn't help that the media often demonises immigrants in their sensationalist stories and puts them together with asylum seekers and refugees. This means that lower class see immigrants as all foreign people in the country the same way they likely see all Muslims as terrorists (Because the majority of media portray it that way). This leads to their prejudice and they see the only way to stop the immigrants coming in is to get control of the borders and the only way to do that is by voting Leave.

It doesn't help either when the politicians make false promises about independence, closed borders and money for NHS and benefits. Also, the constant shirking of blame onto the EU by both sides in the past has demonised it and lead people to believe that the EU is the problem.

What you should do is try and educate these people and slowly eradicate these ideals that have been ingrained into them by a society that has for a long time neglected them, rather then judge and demean them.
 
I'm blaming both sides. I'm saying retainers with the better education should deal with this better though.

I'll be brutally honest with you. I'm holding back way more anger than my posts suggest and I don't think I'm alone in thinking that.

I'm white and English and I feel ashamed of being so. My life finally got back to normal following the recession having being made redundant and having a year of being depression following my father and grandmothers death. I changed industry, turned my life around started to feel happy and then bam! Now my job is under threat again. So why the feck should I remain calm and 'deal with this better'.
 
Brexit fallout is becoming a mega-thread. What interests me now is how the UK moves forward.
Sunderland voted 61% in favour of out. They'll be first to moan if they lose their 6,700 Nissan jobs.
Ditto Yorkshire, Cornwall and Wales bleating about their lost subsidies when all strongly voted out.

How do you get past this? Their sense of entitlement is they want the same or more. Can we really say feck you Thatcher-style and throw thousands more on the scrapheap.
Do wonder if the UK will survive as we know it. No unity.

Well they bleated about the 4000 jobs they lost when the Teeside Steel works was shut but no one gave a feck.

Of course when the London banks were destroyed by their own greed avarice stupidity and corruption the govt put billions of pounds of the Sunderland, Yorkshire Cornwall and Welsh tax payers money into saving them because they were too important to go to the wall. I do wonder whether the sense of entitlement of people in those banking service centres wanting more and more can always be met by honest hard working people in the rest of this country. We should make sure we never give them a say again in anything in case they vote a way London does not like.

Could we really say feck you Thatcher style and let the banks fold destroying London's economy. Oh silly me we should stay in the EU even if the whole Brexit idea is lead and funded by city types and the London Murdoch media fed by the vile vomit inducing sycophancy of the city.

I do wonder if the UK will survive if people from Sunderland who work day in day out in the most productive car plant in the world don't tug their forelocks to their betters in London and admit the only reason they have jobs is because people in London let them have jobs. Once they understand this it should be plain sailing to feck them in the ass forever.
 
I'll be brutally honest with you. I'm holding back way more anger than my posts suggest and I don't think I'm alone in thinking that.

I'm white and English and I feel ashamed of being so. My life finally got back to normal following the recession having being made redundant and having a year of being depression following my father and grandmothers death. I changed industry, turned my life around started to feel happy and then bam! Now my job is under threat again. So why the feck should I remain calm and 'deal with this better'.
Because it is the right thing to do. Just because it is the harder road, doesn't mean you should travel the easier route of hate and anger. It's just not right.
 
Also please note. I'm not directing my anger at you Gol. So don't take it as an attack, I'm just sick of people expecting us to swallow our pride and get on with it. I keep reading people post 'sour grapes' or 'toys out of the pram' these are the type of people I frankly loathe.
 
Well they bleated about the 4000 jobs they lost when the Teeside Steel works was shut but no one gave a feck.

Of course when the London banks were destroyed by their own greed avarice stupidity and corruption the govt put billions of pounds of the Sunderland, Yorkshire Cornwall and Welsh tax payers money into saving them because they were too important to go to the wall. I do wonder whether the sense of entitlement of people in those banking service centres wanting more and more can always be met by honest hard working people in the rest of this country. We should make sure we never give them a say again in anything in case they vote a way London does not like.

Could we really say feck you Thatcher style and let the banks fold destroying London's economy. Oh silly me we should stay in the EU even if the whole Brexit idea is lead and funded by city types and the London Murdoch media fed by the vile vomit inducing sycophancy of the city.

I do wonder if the UK will survive if people from Sunderland who work day in day out in the most productive car plant in the world don't tug their forelocks to their betters in London and admit the only reason they have jobs is because people in London let them have jobs. Once they understand this it should be plain sailing to feck them in the ass forever.

Literally absolutely none of that whatsoever has anything to do with the EU.
 
Also please note. I'm not directing my anger at you Gol. So don't take it as an attack, I'm just sick of people expecting us to swallow our pride and get on with it. I keep reading people post 'sour grapes' or 'toys out of the pram' these are the type of people I frankly loathe.
I get worse shit said to me in the Rashford thread.

Time is the best healer. Your mood will improve with time.

You also have to remember, this feeling you have of your voice not being heard and your life being played with/uncertain. You know who have felt like that for years? The Leave voters.
 
What you should do is try and educate these people and slowly eradicate these ideals that have been ingrained into them by a society that has for a long time neglected them, rather then judge and demean them.

I agree with your entire post, but I don't know how you educate people that stick together, never leave their local town or even estate, and constantly pass these thoughts on to their children and friends. They grow up thinking it's cool to act hard, be nasty to people, and not wanting to learn. I'm generalising there, but I'm sure we all know exactly the type. They end up in a vicious circle, completely of their own doing.

Because it is the right thing to do. Just because it is the harder road, doesn't mean you should travel the easier route of hate and anger. It's just not right.

I don't agree with this however. It's not right that the most uneducated on the referendum and what it meant for the country have done this, and IMO people are right to be angry and backlash. Sitting back and accepting is much the same as never being interested in the first place.
 
I get worse shit said to me in the Rashford thread.

Time is the best healer. Your mood will improve with time.

You also have to remember, this feeling you have of your voice not being heard and your life being played with/uncertain. You know who have felt like that for years? The Leave voters.

They've had their voice heard about as much as the rest of us.

The rest of us just play the game and make the best of it instead of blaming other people for our problems. And we will do the same in the case of leaving the EU - ironically we will be the ones who can adapt to the oncoming shit storm and not the majority of 'leavers'.
 
I get worse shit said to me in the Rashford thread.

Time is the best healer. Your mood will improve with time.

You also have to remember, this feeling you have of your voice not being heard and your life being played with/uncertain. You know who have felt like that for years? The Leave voters.

I've never, ever, had my voice heard.

What do I win?
 
I agree with your entire post, but I don't know how you educate people that stick together, never leave their local town or even estate, and constantly pass these thoughts on to their children and friends. They grow up thinking it's cool to act hard, be nasty to people, and not wanting to learn. I'm generalising there, but I'm sure we all know exactly the type. They end up in a vicious circle, completely of their own doing.



I don't agree with this however. It's not right that the most uneducated on the referendum and what it meant for the country have done this, and IMO people are right to be angry and backlash. Sitting back and accepting is much the same as never being interested in the first place.
Develop areas that are rough. Mingle the lower and the higher classes. The less and the more educated. Break up this divide between the working and middle class. Eventually they will rub off on each other.

I don't say sit back and accept it. Im just saying going forward with a hateful and disgusted attitude is wrong.
 
I get worse shit said to me in the Rashford thread.

Time is the best healer. Your mood will improve with time.

You also have to remember, this feeling you have of your voice not being heard and your life being played with/uncertain. You know who have felt like that for years? The Leave voters.

We won't get anywhere Gol. You have obvious sympathy with leave voters. I have none. So we'll just leave this for another day.
 
They've had their voice heard about as much as the rest of us.

The rest of us just play the game and make the best of it instead of blaming other people for our problems. And we will do the same in the case of leaving the EU - ironically we will be the ones who can adapt to the oncoming shit storm and not the majority of 'leavers'.
They don't see it that way. As i said, they aren't well educated.
I've never, ever, had my voice heard.

What do I win?
 
Because it is the right thing to do. Just because it is the harder road, doesn't mean you should travel the easier route of hate and anger. It's just not right.
Why shouldn't our generation be angry? The baby boomers made sure they had the best lives of anyone on the planet up to that point by buying up practically all the property and making it harder than ever for following generations to get on the ladder. They've destroyed the environment and refuse to even acknowledge it. They've given us a massive pension black hole that we're forced to pay for because it's the decent thing to do. And to top that all off, they're dragging us, kicking and screaming, out of the one international institution that had a hope in hell of undoing their mistakes. But because our generation is magnitudes more forgiving and accepting than theirs, we'll be the ones who endure the hardship of their mistakes and inward thinking.

Where's @Mockney when you need someone to rage against the worst generation ever.
 
We won't get anywhere Gol. You have obvious sympathy with leave voters. I have none. So we'll just leave this for another day.
I don't have sympathy for anybody truth be told. I think leavers are mindless simpletons and remain self righteous hypocrites. I just think your anger is wrong albeit very rational.