Exactly. We are no better off than Jose's second season. In terms of progress ot terms of playing style. Only difference is Jose could win a trophy also.
Solskjaer's contract
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Ole is here to stay, Glazers must love him - delivering CL money and not a murmur of dissatisfaction when they dont back him in the transfer window. There is no plan to get united back to the top and seriously compete with city because they wont sanction 150m+ to buy the players that will improve the team.
Next season will be a tough one for us fans as we slip further behind city, liverpool get their mojo back and chelsea overtake us. I actually think ole has done a fantastic job with what he has, but going into next season with mctom and fred as midfield options is suicide in terms of being competitive.
To get the best out of this group though, he needs new coaches, Ole is a man manager and a good one but our style of play reflects what is going on on the training field.
Next season will be a tough one for us fans as we slip further behind city, liverpool get their mojo back and chelsea overtake us. I actually think ole has done a fantastic job with what he has, but going into next season with mctom and fred as midfield options is suicide in terms of being competitive.
To get the best out of this group though, he needs new coaches, Ole is a man manager and a good one but our style of play reflects what is going on on the training field.
If another manager had taken us from 6th to 2nd in just over 2 seasons, I'd be wanting to give him all the time he needed too, because unfortunately the board that we have don't really care about sporting success.
Other than Moyes, I think I've been consistent with every manager who has come in. I wanted LvG to succeed badly and was with him all the way to the end. With Jose, it's a little more complicated. I was done with him after the Sevilla post-match interview but I still wanted to be proven wrong.
I agree on almost everything here, but the sad part is the anti-Glazer sentiment only seems to last as long as the transfer window is open, and then once its shut all the critical thinking capacity goes out of the window and people will blame the manager and the players.
Jose's 2017/18 team was better than this team.
De Gea (2018) > De gea/henderson
Valencia = AWB
Smalling < Maguire
Bailly > lindelof
Young < shaw
Matic > Fred
Herrera > mctominay
Pogba = pogba
Sanchez < bruno
Rashford = Rashford
Lukaku > Cavani
Lingard = Greenwood (greenwood much higher ceiling)
Martial = Martial
Essentially we've lost Herrera and Lukaku and never replaced them, and matic is as good as gone now but was a top cdm in 2018. We shouldnt expect to be better off when the personnel isnt superior.
I could have won the europa league with the draws Jose got. Ole gets Milan, Jose got Rostov. We didn't play well at all in europe that season. Let's be frank, kick it up to Fellaini was almost plan A.
We are better off though. We don't drop those points against three of the bottom four and we're right up there with City.it needs building on but there are solid foundations in place, which I never felt under Mourinho.
It always does because the focus is only on the glazers during the transfer window. Lets not forget that many predicted a season where we'd struggle to finish top 4, we have exceeded expectations in that regard. But because we were top of the league in december, expectations shifted. The loss of pogba to injury was massive for us and cost us in that regard.
The fact we have stayed in 2nd with mctom/fred, lindelof/maguire, a misfiring greenwood, a non existent martial and a clearly injured rashford is testament to the work ole has done. He needs the funds to improve both first team quality and depth but we know he wont get them.
Absolutely, again I agree with almost everything you say there. He's done a top job but it will fall on deaf ears unfortunately.
Would probably say Lingard better than Greenwood on all fairness. Offered a lot more in overall play. Greenwood is a top talent though.
I'd agree, in that he was performing in big games and scored important goals for us.
Greenwood though, hasnt been nurtured at all. It was worrying to hear from James Cooper that our plan for ST/RW next season is to shift Greenwood centrally and pay Amad on the right. Neither are anywhere near ready for those roles.
Ah must have been that difficutl champions league group that Ole had in which we got embarresed in that put us in the Europa in the first place.
your argument is that Lukaku and Lingard are doing well.
you are easily one of the most negative posters on here, and are always coming up with mental gymnastics to have a go at the club.
this is bad even for you.
My argument can be read in that post and goes in far more detail then that.
I consider myself an Ole out lite. I believe that the guy has some great qualities (ex man management) that are the founding blocks of a modern top manager while there are some areas were he's clearly flawed on them (tactics, coaching etc). For a manager whose still relatively young that something that is understandable. Considering that there aren't many WC managers around then the best course of action would be to surround the guy with as much experience as possible whether he likes it or not.
Unfortunately that's something neither the club nor Ole seem to want to do hence why I am an Ole out lite.
He's 48 with around 11 years of managerial experience under him. Relatively young would be the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney who are just starting out.
He spent most of that time managing Molde whose not even Championship level.
Just to put into some context the last trophy he has won as a manager was 8 years ago, and yet people on here believe that he is the man to take us forward.
And yet, the experience Lampard or Rooney has counts massively in proportion to several years in Norway.
Ye course it does.
Fair enough. I'm the opposite of you. I thought Moyes was a decent choice and deserved his chance at a bigger club but when he changed our coaching staff alarm bells started to ring and from then I couldn't fully get on board with him. LVG I never wanted near United. I watched all his post match interviews when he was at Barcelona and it was pretty obvious he was slightly unhinged which went full blown near the end. His my way or no way attitude was never going to succeed here. Mourinho I feel if he had of taken over after SAF we might have fared a lot better. With him I always felt coming in at sloppy thirds was a blow to his ego which he never really got over.
Ole is a strange one. When he first came as interim the general consensus was WTF but after his initial start the feel good factor was immediately brought back to the club but I can't help but wonder if we had of waited until the end of the season would he now be manager at United? With Ole there's just been too many false dawns (for me) to fully get on board with him and I do feel he's taken this club as far as he can. Getting rid of the toxic atmosphere after Mou, Ole has done a great job but on the footballing side of things he leaves a lot to be desired which is why I think if he's given a new contract before the season ends it will be a mistake from the club. Here I don't think there's a right or wrong answer just personal preference which is why it really is a waste of time going round and round in circles because one side is never going to convince the other and vice versa. Keeps the forum interesting though even though some of the praise/critical comments go way over the top.
Agree with this.
I think the team often scores despite the strikers's current form. This is a plus. The goals are spread through the squad. A world class striker might improve this team beyond recognition.
I don't think that this is relevant at this point. Ole has been here for enough time to be judged for what he did with us. Manchester United had removed alot of dead wood while he was around, we seem set to achieve two top 4 positions under him and the squad is ready to go through a brick wall for him which is a level of commitment we didn't see with Moyes, LVG or Mou. That means that he didn't do too shabby while he's been with us. However there's no denying that there's some areas that the club clearly need to improve. Our transfer record is shocking, too many players are leaving the club and doing well elsewhere (Lukaku, Lingard, Dalot and even Smalling) and our tactics/coaching need improving
That's something to be expected from a manager who lacks experience at this level. Which is why the club needs to aid him by surrounding him with experience. If we want to groom an inexperienced manager to greatness then we need to have the structure to achieve that, something that I feel United lack.
I'd love to get your list of the deadwood and compare it to those that have left and are doing well elsewhere. They might be identical.
there’s nothing wrong with players doing well elsewhere when they leave the club.
I really don’t rate Lukaku, but a club payed £65m for him, so you would expect him to do well, that’s not a negative to aim at United.
He wasn’t in any way the right fit for United. Both his attitude and on pitch performances weren’t good enough for us. That was not going to change, this is not a player that got away, like KDB for Chelsea.
Lingard has played half a dozen games for West Ham. I’m delighted he’s playing well, as he’s a player that’s received far too much crap from fans - and he’s on loan. Is it not good that one of our players, who couldn’t get into the team is doing well elsewhere?
that’s good management, the same for Dalot. I personally don’t think either of them have a future at United, but a successful sale/ loan doesn’t mean that have to fail - which is seemingly how you judge success.
If United were on top then there's a possibility of players who failed to make the grade here to do well elsewhere. It's like a student who made it through a mid range university after failing to make it at Harvard. This isn't the case. United are far from the great team it once were. If Lingard, Smalling, Dalot and Lukaku were able to show the kind of form they are showing/showed with us as they are doing/done with West Ham, Roma, Milan and Inter then there's a decent possibility of us fighting for the league title. Lukaku in particular said that he grew fat because United completely misdiagnosed a condition he had something that was very basic to diagnose. Inter got him up to speed and he's one of the hottest strikers in the world again.
As said, I am not completely Ole out. In such circumstances you have to value the bad things and the good things as well. Ole's superb man management is something that should be considered and valued. Its a quality that every top modern manager must have and is something that is in short supply. However if we want Ole to succeed then we need to surround him with experience. We sort of did that with Phelan but we need more of these sort of people around him. Now you're free to disagree with me on that but that's how I feel.
do you actually think we should have kept any of those players?
also don’t believe a word Lukaku says. His weight problems can’t be unilaterally blamed on his old club. I wonder what incentive he had to say that, having just been sold...
if we manage to sell Lingard for £25m, and he goes on and does well for West Ham, that’s not a mistake it’s a win/win for all involved.
He was in his mid sixties and his greatest period of success by far was in the 1990s. Plus he’d been out of the club game for 3 years. Football moves fast. Just look at the state of Jose now.
Your general point re Jose and LVG is that there has been a great deal of incompetence at board level that makes it difficult for any manager. I can understand that reasoning, but as I said, they both did better in terms of trophies than Ole has done so far, despite the fact that both were not suited to the club.
I think people are complaining (and this is just my analysis, I hardly speak for everyone on this issue) because of the lack of tangible success. Ole will be 3 years in the job by the end of this year. Top 4 two seasons in a row is all well and good, but top 4 is not a trophy, contrary to the wisdom of Arsene Wenger. At some point, a manager has to prove he can win. That’s why his ‘ego’ comments were a bit odd, because you’ve got to start somewhere. Try and get into the winning habit, because that’s what winning is, a habit (as the cliche goes). He’s got a great chance this season and IMO, he has to take it, or his job will be under threat if United don’t mount a serious challenge for the league next year.
Do I think there are managers that could have done better than Ole with United’s current issues? Yes I do, because I don’t believe Ole is an elite coach.
Do I accept your point that any manager, no matter how good, would have been hamstrung to a degree by United’s clueless board and leadership? Yes I do.
If we had a perfect squad then the answer would be no. The current squad is far from perfect. I'd say Dalot is better to any RB alternative we've got to AWB, Lukaku is a better striker to all we've got and I would have certainly retained Smalling over Jones, Bailly and Tuanzebe. As said its not all bad and when hiring an inexperienced manager, mistakes are expected to happen. However if we really want the Ole project to succeed then we need to surround him with experienced heads who would help him out.
So the team that knocked the 11th best team in the Bundesliga out of the Europa League, and lost 2-3 on aggregate to the 8th best team in la Liga - isn't better than Rotherham and Sheffield Wednesday ?
Oh yes I can see Rotherham destroying Hoffenheim away from home
Dalot needs games, and he wasn’t getting them at United. So if he’s playing well, that’s a good loan. He wouldn’t have played barely at all at United.
Lukaku may be scoring goals, but he showed with his attitude his nit good enough, and last season Martoal scored more league goals than he did in either of his 2 seasons.
I’d have preferred Smalling to have stayed, but stylistically he didn’t suit the team, and he wouldn’t accept not being first choice. Fair enough.
I can’t see that there’s a player that United have regretted selling, or sending on loan post Fergie, and deffo not under Solskjaer.
the only marginal one is Herrera, and he started running his contract down before OGS took charge.
I agree with all of this. What I find really silly though is giving Jones a 5 year deal. I think it happened when Ole was caretaker, but I don't buy that he had zero say in the decision to offer a new deal at that stage, because conversations were obviously taking place about succession etc.
So the team that knocked the 11th best team in the Bundesliga out of the Europa League, and lost 2-3 on aggregate to the 8th best team in la Liga - isn't better than Rotherham and Sheffield Wednesday ?
Oh yes I can see Rotherham destroying Hoffenheim away from home
These things do happen mate. Coventry kicked us out of a league cup once with my mate Michael Mifsud making a fool out of Evans and a future WC and treble winner as CB. Could Coventry win the EPL that year?
The issue is most of these players were struggling here and were immediately a hit elsewhere. Very few squads are perfect as well and most of the time managers have to make due with what they find. Do you think that Sir Alex biggest dream is to try and win the last EPL title with the likes of Cleverley in midfield? I very much doubt it. He would have rather have had prime Ronaldo on the flank and 2 WC CMs in the team. That's something Ole will need to learn if he wants to become a top manager.
Yeah I left James Cooper’s interview with a headache. I just hope those were his views only. But highly doubt it.
We are spending a summer with CB as our main priority when 1 should only cost £40m maximum in this market. Where’s the rest of the money going?!
you still don’t get it.
a £65m player should be a Hit with his new club, that’s not a surprise, and not something to beat the club up about.
the other three you mentioned all went on loan, with a view to being sold (with smalling already sold).
do you think it would reflect better on the club, if they all went away and were poor?
We had trophies with the previous two managers also. Did that help them? Arteta is currently an FA Cup winner. Did that Cup win help him in any way shape or form the next season? And that too, in a season where he inarguably improved his starting XI much more than Ole did.
The ego comments are neither here nor there. He shouldn't have worded it the way he did, but considering it's his second language and the quote when taken in its full context makes more sense, I'll cut him some slack. I agree that he needs to win a trophy for his and the players sake more than anything else, but I don't think it will in turn lead to more pressure on him the following season if he doesn't. The only way a title charge will be considered a realistic target is if he gets the players he needs to improve the quality of the squad. If he doesn't, then around 3rd is going to be our level.
See, this is where I disagree. I think Ole is a good enough coach to at least disrupt the potential duopoly of City and Liverpool. He's beaten every big team and big coach he's come up against at least once and it's usually been in circumstances where he's been overmatched, which again, tells me he's someone who has enough about him to do well here in the long-term if he's given the materials to do so. The question is, will he be given those materials?
I keep seeing this as an argument to back up Ole. The fact that many predicted that we'll struggle to make top 4 doesn't make it acceptable, it seems that since many predicted such thing then anything above is good enough, is not.
Ole is part of that prediction, it seems the argument is made only to the players and everything overachieving about some reactionary prediction after some underwhelming signings in the summer its an argument to praise Ole.
Let's say we were actually struggling for top 4, then the same argument would had been used? its ok because many predicted it at the beginning of the season. Does that make sense?
I love this logic, because somehow the logic twists to fit Ole everytime. If talking about signings then he's made an amazing job, if talking about shifting deadwood and improving players he's done amazing as well, but still somehow we have a weaker squad than Mourinho's when the only aging player is Matic.
Yeah IF he at least finally acknowledged there was an issue with his coaching staff in the summer and does something about it then with little investment we may eventually get a slight improvement in style of play, however whilst we still have our usual CB pairing and McFred in midfield then it will generally still be quite dull to watch most of the time
Yep, I definitely disagree with the bolded. I don’t put that much stock in isolated results. He’s had wins against big PL teams (City for example) and the likes of PSG in Europe which were good wins but they were often predicated on parking the bus and hitting on the counter.
It doesn’t actually matter whether United beat City in a game as much as people might think. When Liverpool were dominant in the 80s, United would often beat them. When United became top dogs, Liverpool would often get good results against them. So if Ole beats Pep now in a game, it doesn’t matter that much, even though it’s nice. What matters above all else is consistency.
Under Ole, United have been supremely inconsistent, having periods where they go on fantastic runs and look like world beaters and then the wheels fall off and they look absolutely terrible for 10 or so games. That has stopped United from challenging for the title this year. United could easily have been in the mix this season (with City’s average start) if they hadn’t imploded.
We pretty much imploded when Pogba limped out of the Everton game, yes I know he was part of the team that got beat against Sheff Utd but missed him massively and could have been the difference in the other games but for injury