Well put.
Solskjaer's legacy and his future
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Indeed he can't have been holding back a great squad due to lack of coaching as was repeated on here many a time as the main reason he needed sacking but somehow he also left a poor squad. A narrative now being peddled by many of the same posters. If he left such a poor squad then how did he push that squad to two consecutive top 3 finishes and reaching 4 semi-finals and one final in two seasons. Did he overachieve through individual managerial brilliance?
As you rightly say though the truth will be somewhere in between.
Ozil then went to have the best and most successful season of his career, it's pretty obvious to me that Jose knew how to deal with a person like him and how to push him to the edge to get the best out of him , because after that Ozil career went downfall when he has softer manager who doesn't demand as much. If you consider that as abusing then why don't you try to go to military to see how harsh the treatment there ? But those that survive harsh treatment become strong mentally , in football they becomes a winner.A good man management isn't about making people happy , because happy people has the least drive to be successful compared to angry and disappointed people ,just look at OGS happy-go-lucky approach ,did it brought the club any success ? I heard how Mourinho was harsh to a player he rates because he knew they can do better than a player who lacks talent but already done their best. Those that doesn't want to do their best must be binned because they can influence others to also not doing their best as well. One of the reason why Mourinho failed here was because he wasn't allowed to bin those kind of players.
Lampard is a far better coach then Ole.
Lampard operated with no money spent and bigger constraints than Ole faced. Expectations for Chelsea weren't that high that season and Lampard has met it or even exceeded it. Next season expectations were raised, and on the first sign of trouble Lampard was removed.
Compare this to Ole, who was fully backed to the hilt with the highest net spend, sky high wage bill. He was given chance after chance despite long spells of bad performance but ultimately failed to turn this around. He was also the manager that our opposition cheer for when we played them, we simply had to remove him to prevent further damage to his reputation.
Lampard is seen as prematurely removed and not fully given a chance to show what he can do despite some good flashes. Ole is fully fleshed out and we needed to to remove him to save him and us from further embarrassment.
I'm not sure why people here think we are being too hard on Ole. Mourinho had far better results and achievements than Ole but yet he is endlessly shit on here with barely anyone trying to redeem him. Compared to him, Ole is already receiving the far lighter end of the stick and he should be grateful. Is it so hard to ask for the same standards to be applied to all our managers? No one is accepting the Mourinho has done a good job yet we are expected to accept that Ole has done a good job for the first 2 seasons?
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I find it hard to square a post like this with the reality that in Ole's two full seasons, United had a combined 14 losses in the PL.
Being consistently "outplayed" by teams who consistently lose the game suggests that this definition of "outplaying" is not very useful.
It's actually very significant to why we're on our worst trophy spell since SAF retired. That inability to control games fecked us when there was anything to play for. We'd beat PSG, RB then crash out of the CL because we couldn't outplay some no name team when it was time to take initiative.
*Who spent nearly £100m on Kovacic and Pulisic that same year despite that transfer ban.
I agree.
I am a self-confessed Ole sympathiser but even I knew he had to go after the Leicester result and it got a hell of a lot worse afterwards. Those last few games are not representative at all.
Ole elicited quite polarised opinions because of his personality, in my opinion. He doesn’t come across as a natural leader in the typical style associated with successful managers of the past. He led by forming bonds with his players as a group and as individuals and inspiring loyalty. They followed him because they liked him. Unfortunately this is not a sustainable model. One reason the wheels came off is that some of the players stopped pulling for him and the others noticed it and resented it (probably a factor in the reported divisions in the squad).
Lampard, for example, escapes a lot of criticism and gets plenty of excuses made for him because his personality appears consistent with a successful leader as most of us perceive such a thing.
As humans we are susceptible to making judgments based on our fundamental attitudes. Ole does not fit the recognised profile of a successful manager therefore losses must be his fault and wins must be down to the players.
I’ve no idea what the real truth is but I know the results and league positions in his two full seasons were pretty good. To my mind that is the only rational way to judge him.
Its very useful when you consider what you are competing against and what your goals are.
The premier league isn't a table of who plays the best football in order. Its a table of who, all things considered is the most effective team. You could put 7 players from peak Barcelona on the pitch but if you have 3 championship level players as your front 3 you aren't going to win anything. Thats where all of the smaller teams fall down. They lack that quality in the final third.
I've played sport all my life at various levels from pretty high to very average and the one universal truth is that you can play the other team off the park but if they have an effective means of scoring goals and you don't then they will probably beat you. Thats United in a nutshell. Outplayed and still win a lot of games.
Now, onto your point that its perhaps not that useful. Its not that useful until you actually want to win something. Because suddenly you are facing the likes of City and Liverpool who do outplay almost everyone and they have the players to take their chances. Now you are at a massive disadvantage. You want to win the CL? You can't afford to randomly slip up in a few games and get pasted.
This is why football quality should always be prioritised over short term results when you are in a position like United at the moment. This is why I never wanted Ole to get the job full time. He never looked like he was working towards having us playing at the level of the teams that compete for trophies year after year. Ask someone how United play over the past 3 years and the best you will probably get is "they are best on the counter". Thats not a valid playing style for a team with our supposed ambition.
The best we ever looked like being under Ole was an underachieving team that competed for top 4 every season whilst outspending basically everyone in the league. Ole was the massive weak link in our ambitions.
I don't dislike the guy but its been clear for a long time he doesn't have anything like the ceiling of Klopp, Guardiola or any of the other top coaches who actually add value to their players.
People were saying we got outplayed in games we won comfortably and had all the possession and all the chances. Many people made their minds up about Ole before he even got the job and for those people it was very easy to trot out all the clichés about Ole and I’m sure they believed them.
It’s hard to argue with your last paragraph.
However you need balance in doing that. The tough love approach worked well for Özil both for Mourinho also before that for Schaaf (who made him the center of his Bremen side and reached the EL final), but it doesn't work for all players. Some need to be cuddled and feel safe because under too much pressure they just don't perform.
I feel like Ole does too much of the latter, so both him and Mou lack the balance in this regard.
He's not wrong, though. United has, or should have, higher aspirations than the majority of the teams which participate in the PL. Most of the teams we faced under Solskajer, or whoever came before him and will come after him, will happily settle for a draw, especially at OT. The problem in these two full seasons you mentioned is that his win percentage was slightly above 50% (39/76). And if you watched our games, you would be able to tell that we were a very streaky team: firing on all cylinders when key players hit top-form and looking utterly unable to change our fortunes whenever said players weren't available or were going through rough patches.
From that point onward, it kind of became a matter of how much goodwill you were willing to show him. Those who liked the idea of an ex-legend managing the club wanted to give him more leeway, they were pointing toward the practical difficulties at the time (each time) and they were prioritizing the league position over the poor points tally. The rest argued that this lack of consistency in our performances is enough proof that he hasn't laid the foundations of a new side on a solid base, that the continuous disparity between our ceiling and our bottom performances is an alarm for the future and that 66 & 74 points is nothing to write home about. In the end, the foundations weren't very solid after all.
I admit that i don't understand this new narrative that all was good until the wheels came off. If everything was working like clockwork, then why did the wheels come off so spectacularly? And if that's the case, are the people who suggest this willing to extend the same lenience to, let's say, Mourinho? After all, he finished second too, plus he actually won something. And from what i remember, all he wanted, after spending a fortune, was a new midfielder and a centre-half. Sounds familiar? From what i read, it's because Maureen is a pragmatic trophy hunter who didn't deliver at United (which is, hands down, true) while Solskajer was never about the trophies, instead his job was to get the club back on track (he did just that as interim). Which, subsequently, suggests that, after about the same amount of time and money spent, Solskajer should be considered a success because... trophies would have been a bonus under him. Which, afair, is what some people were screaming about. You know, the lowering of the bar so that the United man can jump over it.
As for the comparisons to Moyes and fat Frank. Moyes has a good track record in the PL. He's had his fair share of ups and downs, but ranking third in wins in the PL era (we all know who the top two managers are) is actually something you can put on your CV. Admittedly, the United gig did harm his reputation, but you could always bet on him landing a PL job. United not being able to get back on their feet in the meantime helped him hide his failings here under the rug too. Lampard is a member of England's golden generation and is also well-connected. You could say that he enjoys an immunity on the island similar to the one Solskjaer was afforded by a lot of people (and the board) within United's microcosm. Focus on the good things, never mind the bad ones. I can't see, from an outsider's perspective, how Tuchel's CL win reflects good on him... What the German changed was the over-confident - close to naive - attacking approach and the Sunday league level of defensive transition... both trademarks of Lampard's time at Chelsea. To me, it seems like some people are just desperate to credit him with something.
Solskjaer could get another PL job in the future. Before this season, he showed the willingness to go back to the drawing board whenever it was needed. The good-feel factor and the ability to instil a feeling of togetherness will not go unnoticed in a league where you can't catch a breather and things can quickly get out of control if the atmosphere in and around the dressing room is toxic. Plus, his unimaginative "sit back and hit on the counter" brand of football can still do the trick at most PL midtable clubs. So, yeah, he may get another shot at managing in the PL. It just won't be in the near future because no one can bounce right back after being mocked at every stadium in the country. And he won't be the great builder (or is it rebuilder?) that so many have in their minds. Just another manager who'll get appointed to steady a sinking ship at a midtable club, stay a year or two, and then be moved on when what he brings to the table becomes, with time, insufficient to keep the team afloat.
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You said he abused a player to the point of tears to get him to perform, and you hailed it as the right thing to do.
Basically win the trophies even if you psychologically destroy people in the process - got you.
These players are not in the military, their job involves kicking a ball for entertainment, so using the military makes no sense - the stakes differ. Have you seen all the mental health issues that plague ex-soldiers by the way? A bit of balance please.
Both extremes are flawed. Bullying and abusing people in the name of success in a sport is morally wrong and is not sustainable either as Jose's third season capitulations have shown, neither is Ole's pampering of players. One can instill discipline while being firm/strict and fair (and by firm, I don't mean verbally abusing anyone till they're in tears to get them to do what you want - that's just moronic)
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Özil definitely wasn't psychologically destroyed by Mourinho. He might not have been happy all the time with Mou, but that is something completely different.
Agree with pretty much everything in the above apart from this last paragraph.
I think that he will struggle to get a PL job simply because he didn't show any ability to elevate the collective beyond the feel good factor post Mourinho. He won't have talented strikers, wingers and midfielders who change games on their own. I might be wrong but I don't think anyone will look at his work in the PL and think there is much value to be added from having him at the helm.
I just can’t see any PL club being interested in Ole, at least not until after he’s had success somewhere else. Would any German clubs take a punt on him?
There’s scores of young aspiring managers that’d die for a chance in Bundesliga, judging by the way they’ve been choosing their gaffers I say there’s no way anyone there would fancy Ole
Being serious the only top league he has a chance to get a job is in the EPL. With that being a slim slim chance, maybe he can get a job in the championship but my guess is he wont coach again at top level.
No chance. He would likely be to expensive and simply doesn't have a network in Germany, as he never worked here and neither do his old mates.
And that's before we talk about his actual qualities - the doubts about that have been discussed to great lengths here.
Look at Mother Theresa of this forum over here. Let's just recap what this hypocrite above has written in the Martial thread, just to ensure people are not left with a false impression (copied because I cannot quote from a closed thread).
Apparently there are 40 replies to this thread. I can only see about half of those and most of those are reasonable. Caf is actually a decent place when you've got the right people on ignore.
'The amount of sad faces in this thread proves why this fanbase doesn't deserve good things. This much love for a moody half-arsed underperformer.'
'Good riddance. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.'
and another one (the previous clearly was not enough)
Good fecking riddance. Don't let the door hit you on the way out sunshine.
17. seven games in, and lost two games to teams promoted. It is, and maybe one should read that Ben Turner interview as to why he was sacked. He had to go for us, but there is no point making shit up to discredit the man.
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Very much so my friend...
I wouldn't expect him to manage anytime soon. It's a stressful job so he needs a rest, then aside from that he won't be managing any other club with similar resources to Manchester United. Hiring him would be a gamble and I can't imagine a lot of clubs taking a chance with him, might as well give it the opportunity to new upcoming managers with more progressive ideas.
I think the "dislike" is more because of the Ole in-ners than the man himself.
Some of the Ole threads and divisions between Ole out and Ole in folks were ridiculous. The fanbase was divided and it lead to many divisive threads taunting the other side.
The fact that Ole's friends in the media always gave him such an easy ride whilst slaughtering every other entity in the club; blaming everything on them pissed people off considerably. He was incredibly protected in the English mainstream media.
Don't think anyone actually dislikes Ole the man much. United fans love him for that goal. Opponents love him because he was never a threat to their club and a subpar manager who was banter-material for them.
Doubt
Germany produce great managers here and there.
No chance they would block a german manager with potential just to give the job to Ole because he managed United (and failed to deliver).
Ole was given the job at United just because of being Man Utd legend,
Furthermore, PL is obsessed with foreign managers, as UK hasn't produced a single top manager since SAF, this isn't the case with Germany.
To break this further down: When you look at the Bundesliga 12 of 18 clubs are managed by Germans, you might also count Matarazzo (Italian-American) as 13th, who simply lives and works for many years in Germany now.
Then there are a few managers who came through the Red Bull system (2 from Austria and 1 from Denmark, who also played for the club he manages today - Svensson in Mainz).
And then there are the Suisse Fischer and Seoane who simply moved to the bigger neighbour's league, like the RB guys. Hütter also fits here too as he left RB to work in Switzerland and then moved to Germany.
In conclusion BL clubs don't sign failures from elsewhere, but tend to promote managers from smaller clubs or their own youth setups. Of course there is still the ongoing recycling of their own failures that no one can explain (like Kohfeldt...), but it's hard to imagine someone like Solskjaer to enter that merry go round in Germany.
Nonetheless we might see Ole in the Bundesliga next season (of course I'm talking about Ole Werner here who might get promoted with Bremen)
Reading on this forum has made me realise that a feckin lot of people have problems behaving as decent human beings, at least on the internet. I mean, such a nice guy like Ole, it should not be necessary to keep on like this long after he left. This seasons matches under him were a disaster, and also the matches after in my opinion, though I do believe in Ragnick, given enough time. But there WAS some REALLY good football under Ole, to say otherwise would be to revise history. Also his win ratio is up among the best United coaches, 3rd best in United history. In the PL. 3rd best. ever. But still will not get a decent job? To act like some teenage problem kids and spew shit, lies and belittle people like many are doing (and not only to Ole) - is just trolling. It is a shame that so many people have so low self esteem that they sink so low. So cowardly to sit on the internet and be tough guys that know it all, while in reality we all know that very few on this forum has the experience as a coach to be so bombastic about everything.
Ole's interview after he left (which I don't think should have been recorded) showed just how much he gave to the role. His 100%. It wasn't enough ultimately but we should all be wishing him well!
While I agree with what you wrote, I find the "such a nice guy" thing weird. None of us know him personally.
For all we know, a guy like Mourinho(a man who is widely regarded as a terrible narcissistic person here) might be a very nice and chilled guy outside Football.
At the end of the day these professionals can only be judged on their jobs. We know none of them personally.
We all thought Ryan Giggs was a nice guy until 2011(?) because of how professionally he conducted himself in his Football career.
Ole behaved well as a manager not offending the board, respecting the fans and so on. But let's not forget, he doesn't have the managerial pedigree to get away with bad behaviour like a Conte does. So not like Ole had a choice. Kinda how Ryan Mason conducted himself in his short stint at Spurs.
I think every United fan should respect the guy for what he did as a player. Period.
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To truer words spoken in this thread or any other on the caf in respect of ole.
This is like saying positivity is toxic...
Agreed. I was just curious if close observers of the BL might see an opportunity for Ole there.
How about MSL, or even the USL? Ole is financially set for life so it’s not about needing a paycheck. As we all know, United have a massive fan base in the states, and despite his woes at Old Trafford he could be an attractive option for some clubs.
Name me a player who were successful with cuddled approach. All winners came from harsh treatment , it's not just in football ,in every career. They becomes winner because they can overcome it. A manager has to be fair , reward them when they played well, kick them in the ass when they were shit, that's how a good man management is. Cuddling approach will only breed loser. Mourinho wouldn't have over 25 major trophies in his career if he was bad at man management absolutely no chance. Look at the kind of players he was once managed , Ibrahimovic , Balotelli , Adriano , Cambiasso , Walter Samuel all in the same dressing room. I think what he couldn't manage is a lazy player.
It works both way ,if you are mentally too weak and too soft to handle it then you are probably end up as a loser too. Back then we have Sir Alex and Roy Keane in dressing room , can you imagine how horrible they are for a mentally weak players ?
By the way , football manager isn't there to make a player happy , that's what fans are for. Manager is there to turn player into winners if the player refuse / mentally weak then it's the manager job to get rid of them before they brought the whole team down with them. There are too many soft and weak characters in our team which lead us to this mess Rangnick has to deal with. I only support the club and what's best for the club ,never the player , mentally weak players should never be allowed to step foot at Manchester United. if you care about players feelings and mental health that only shows where your priorities at. OGS seems to be only care about players feelings and mental health but look where it brought him ? We get battered week in week out yet he keeps the same starting eleven because he didn't dare to hurt Luke Shaw , AWB , Rashford , Maguire feelings. Weak leadership is what failed him and one of the reasons why he is still jobless.
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Only cuddling doesn't work, we fully agree here. But there is a difference between just shouting at someone that he is useless and provoking a reaction by that (like Mourinho does) and taking someone and telling him that he can be useful and valuable and then when he believes you you start pushing him hard to actually achieve that.
The Bundesliga comeback of this season - Anthony Modeste - would be a good example for the latter.
Now that he's managed Manchester United, I doubt he has the pashun and desire to manage in England again. He lived out his dream and is rich enough to not need to go into club management for a fair while. If the Norway job becomes available, he might go for that.
By the time United sacked Solskjaer, he had become a laughing stock, a figure of fun who was mocked at grounds up and down England. It's probably what will be front of mind for clubs who might contemplate hiring him.
By the time United sacked Solskjaer, he had become a laughing stock, a figure of fun who was mocked at grounds up and down England. It's probably what will be front of mind for clubs who might contemplate hiring him.
Should have done the right thing and resigned after things went south early in the season but stuck around and it left us in even a bigger mess. His efforts as manager has damaged his legacy a little bit but in years to come that will go away.
Solskjaer looks rejuvenated, refreshed and happy after the couple months’ break. Very pleased for him.
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Nonetheless we might see Ole in the Bundesliga next season (of course I'm talking about Ole Werner here who might get promoted with Bremen)
You got me, you little scoundrel
Ole can't and shouldn't be expected to have lived the everyday lives of the players in place of them. He was a manager and a coach. However, symbolically, the recent event closed the chapter. The young player was one for the future and is most likely no more. United, hopefully, won't be afraid to start over comprehensively even if that would mean difficult times from the footballing side.