Tactical Masterclass

el3mel said:
Yeah I have nothing else to say. Some people either have short memory or didn't watch SAF regularly at all.
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SAF was as pragmatic as anyone. We played attacking, expansive football when we had the opportunity to but he was more than willing to adopt to the opposition. How many times had we seen a defensive, cautious approach away from home in Europe under him? Or to use players like O'shea and Park to nullify key players or strengths of the opposition.

Mourinho has tried to play attacking football here, alright he hadnt been entirely successful with it (yet) but I'm more than happen to see this kind of approach in the big games.
 
ivaldo said:
SAF was as pragmatic as anyone. We played attacking, expansive football when we had the opportunity to but he was more than willing to adopt to the opposition. How many times had we seen a defensive, cautious approach away from home in Europe under him? Or to use players like O'shea and Park to nullify key players or strengths of the opposition.

Mourinho has tried to play attacking football here, alright he hadnt been entirely successful with it (yet) but I'm more than happen to see this kind of approach in the big games.
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Exactly that's my point. That's why I said some people here makes me believe I never watched SAF before when talking about him as if he was attacking aimlessly whatever the opponent .
 
Womp said:
Good read that, given Jose is a huge advocate for zonal marking it was impressive to see him adapt to a man-marking system and make it work so well.
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This is the crux for me.

It doesn't matter whether we have LVG or Jose, when the tactics are well thought out, and the players are up for it, this squad can put in a good performance. It sort of kills the myth that we have shit players or players not up to the job. We may not have WC players, but we certainly have a squad capable of challenging in the PL, which should be our first objective. Our problems with draws have largely been down to our own tactics and not having a plan to get around defensive teams.

That was the first game this season, where I actually sat back, and thought at last, we have a team and manager in sync. It was a very very good pragmatic performance, nullified any threat from the opposition, but also created our own threat by playing to the weakness of the opposition formation and tactics. I actually think it is the first time that Jose (whilst a United manager and playing a top PL team) actually played to win. Normally Jose would have stuck to zonal marking and just made sure we didn't lose. Maybe, the quest for top 4 has forced him out of his shell.

Last year we used the 'false dawn' analogy, be interesting to see if this is one (a one off) or whether Jose gets that we need to practically win 99% of the remaining game.
 
Andersons Dietician said:
I have nothing against Jose. Why can't someone give an opinion against the populas without being labelled as hating Jose.

Some of us were brought up with certain values and a certain type of football and Jose embodies nothing of that but that doesn't mean we hate him. Some people need to really get over themselves.

His tactic to man mark Edan Hazard and Pedro is hardly revolutionary. We let them take the game to us and we nullified the threat with a pretty basic game plan. It was a good result but let's get things straight it was more the intensity and graft that got us that result. Nothing revolutionary happened.

I pointed out it's basically what smaller teams try to do against us. I.e. We went in with a small team mentality. There isn't anything technically wrong with that but it's not something that even if we win a champions league off of tactics like that, that will endear us to the masses or inspire that we are something more like united teams of the past.

Hence why Jose will never be the right man for united.
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Uhm, yes it will.

Manchester United have won a paltry 3 European Cups, if Josè wins a 4th he'll be regarded as a fecking God and that team will go down in history as a vintage United side.
 
el3mel said:
I don't understand how Mikhi and Martial beating their man is related to defensive tasks. There's a big contradictions here , if Jose wants to play it safe why he'll let them risk the play by trying to beat their man and risk losing the ball? Why don't he tell them to play it safe and pass it back ?? What if Martial is the one lacking in moving behind players because his off ball movement is a joke ?? Don't you watch Rashford move behind the defenders normally because his off ball movement is much better ?? Just give me one example of both of them restricted to defense and not attacking in any game to justify your opinion. You are making many assumptions without any critical proof.
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I think Mkhi has improved on that aspect of that game from when he first joined - he has started getting back which helps his game as he can build from the back without much pressure at first; I may be wrong but I think players like Martial, Mkhi (fleet-footed, quick) need a bit of acceleration to beat men and that is difficult to do against smaller teams who start pressing them the moment they get the ball. Our build up as is with a few players is laboured against small teams since they don't show any ambition; Rashford and Lingard will literally run to the other end of the pitch to escape their markers and that is what has helped them.
 
GailWynand said:
I think Mkhi has improved on that aspect of that game from when he first joined - he has started getting back which helps his game as he can build from the back without much pressure at first; I may be wrong but I think players like Martial, Mkhi (fleet-footed, quick) need a bit of acceleration to beat men and that is difficult to do against smaller teams who start pressing them the moment they get the ball. Our build up as is with a few players is laboured against small teams since they don't show any ambition; Rashford and Lingard will literally run to the other end of the pitch to escape their markers and that is what has helped them.
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I think Martial if concentrating and on his day can beat his man very well. His current problem imo is related to the mentality he plays with, which can't be compared to the mentality Rashford or even Lingard play with. Martial overall got potential , pace and skills but need to improve the way he play and his mentality on the field.

Mikhi yeah he has improved. My only problem with Mikhi is him losing too many balls under pressure. If he learned how to keep the ball under his feet he'll be a great number 10 player.
 
SirAF said:
Uhm, yes it will.

Manchester United have won a paltry 3 European Cups, if Josè wins a 4th he'll be regarded as a fecking God and that team will go down in history as a vintage United side.
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Quite a strong vote of confidence for our current European campaign, don't you think? :D
 
el3mel said:
I think Martial if concentrating and on his day can beat his man very well. His current problem imo is related to the mentality he plays with, which can't be compared to the mentality Rashford or even Lingard play with. Martial overall got potential , pace and skills but need to improve the way he play and his mentality on the field.

Mikhi yeah he has improved. My only problem with Mikhi is him losing too many balls under pressure. If he learned how to keep the ball under his feet he'll be a great number 10 player.
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I do hope he sorts out whatever it is that they have, Martial on song is a fecking joy to watch.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Take a moment to think about the words I've bolded and why these stats are almost completely irrelevant when we're comparing fatigue levels between two teams, one of whom is has been competing in Europe (including a match last fecking Thursday night) and one of whom has not (whose last match was eight days before their trip to Old Trafford).
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I read the article and had the same reaction. That article was so poorly written that I was frustrated beyond my capacity to respond. Almost like "hey lets just ignore that whole extra competition that Chelsea isn't playing tututututu".
 
el3mel said:
Ha ??? What was this then ?



You said he doesn't commit many players on the counter and that why I replied from the start.



You keep telling me to watch games and not backing your posts with a critical proof and that's my problem with your post. Instead of telling me to watch games, pack your posts with proofs that Jose commits less players while attacking than SAF. Tell me how many players were attacking under SAF and how under Jose so I can discuss it with you , not saying this like a fact and that's it : I had to accept it or not.

Each player on the pitch is supposed to have a defensive role when the ball is lost. Wingers should support the back defensively when the attack is on their flank from the opponent or the back will be in 1vs2 situation with the opponent's back and wing both attacking from his side and that flank will be at a great disadvantage defensively . This's not something that is related only to Jose as each manager does it , and it doesn't restrict them from attacking when the ball is with us by any means. Assuming that Jose gives his players much more defensive tasks than other manager is an exaggerated assumption that's made up by his critics imo based on him playing some games in a full defensive approach that people start to concentrate on any small defensive role a player has on the pitch. Even SAF gave his players a defensive roles when he decided to play it close and shut a game down as what he did against Madrid in 2013 and against Barca in 2008.

Can you describe how Martial has high defensive tasks against Anderlecht ?? You're the first one I have seen to see this.
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Explain to me what proof you want? Because you can't pull up a stat to show that Valencia stops 10 meters short of where he should go. Or that Martial or any of our wingers don't attack space. What you're asking can only be seen by watching games. It's not about how many players that get in the box it's that players won't commit beyond their defensive shielding. I gave you examples of two games to go and watch. There is one perfect example against WBA where Martial comes inside and WBA have built the wall and Martial is looking for Valencia and there is a huge space to play it in to but Valencia is holding back defending incase the move breaks down. This happens time and time again.

It's pretty clear that no one can give any constructive critism that you'll take seriously as well if you say I hate Jose then it's clear you're in love with him.

Also it's not just when the ball is lost. I wish I could draw you a diagram as it would be easier to show you.

Also watch the games watch Martila instead of joining the attack looking to see where his full back was and where he should be positionally. Honestly rewatch the two games I mentioned then get back to me.
 
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RedCurry said:
I read the article and had the same reaction. That article was so poorly written that I was frustrated beyond my capacity to respond. Almost like "hey lets just ignore that whole extra competition that Chelsea isn't playing tututututu".
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I deleted my post because I'd completely misinterpreted what @Moonwalker was saying. He was agreeing that it was a load of deceitful nonsense.
 
RedCurry said:
I read the article and had the same reaction. That article was so poorly written that I was frustrated beyond my capacity to respond. Almost like "hey lets just ignore that whole extra competition that Chelsea isn't playing tututututu".
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You lot are thinking too much. Read it in the morning and then tossed it in the bin (or it's electronic equivalent) - gave me a good laugh to start the day with to be honest.
 
Andersons Dietician said:
Explain to me what proof you want? Because you can't pull up a stat to show that Valencia stops 10 meters short of where he should go. Or that Martial or any of our wingers don't attack space. What you're asking can only be seen by watching games. It's not about how many players that get in the box it's that players won't commit beyond their defensive shielding. I gave you examples of two games to go and watch. There is one perfect example against WBA where Martial comes inside and WBA have built the wall and Martial is looking for Valencia and there is a huge space to play it in to but Valencia is holding back defending incase the move breaks down. This happens time and time again.

It's pretty clear that no one can give any constructive critism that you'll take seriously as well if you say I hate Jose then it's clear you're in love with him.

Also it's not just when the ball is lost. I wish I could draw you a diagram as it would be easier to show you.
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I watched both games already , can't you understand that ? that's why I don't agree with what you're saying at all. Valencia has been a key player in our attacking system since day one of this season so saying he's restricted to defense is just something I have never seen this season. It's what you only saw.

Anyway I wasn't asking for a proof for Valencia rushing forward as it's clear anyway. You said Jose attacks with less numbers of players than SAF and I asked you for a proof for this. Since your claimed proof is for me to watch games I already watched then I have nothing else to say regarding this.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I deleted my post because I'd completely misinterpreted what @Moonwalker was saying. He was agreeing that it was a load of deceitful nonsense.
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I've missed your post, for shame.

The Ken Early, cumulative fatigue stuff was nonsense upon stilts. Too stupid to dignify it with a refutation.
 
el3mel said:
I watched both games already , can't you understand that ? that's why I don't agree with what you're saying at all. Valencia has been a key player in our attacking system since day one of this season so saying he's restricted to defense is just something I have never seen this season. It's what you only saw.

Anyway I wasn't asking for a proof for Valencia rushing forward as it's clear anyway. You said Jose attacks with less numbers of players than SAF and I asked you for a proof for this. Since your claimed proof is for me to watch games I already watched then I have nothing else to say regarding this.
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Ok what I should have said instead of numbers won't commit them as fully as Ferguson or most managers do. Does that make sense to you now?
 
Some people don't get Jose yet.

He is very flexible when it comes to attacking and defending. It is always determined by his perception of the opponent and the particular situation in a game. For instance, if he perceives the opponent as too strong, he goes all defensive and opts for counter plays. If he perceives the opponent as weaker, he goes for attacks. If he has a lead and perceives that his opponent might knick an equaliser either because they are strong or because he does not fully trust his team, he goes defensive. If he thinks otherwise, he goes offensive for a second goal.

Therein lies both his strength and weakness. His perception per time.

This approach is exactly why he has one of the best head to head records against top teams both at home and in Europe. Unfortunately, it is also why he is seen by many as a proponent of negative football.

It's why I think, he is one of the best tacticians the game has seen.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He's a good journalist, so it's a pity he's resorted to such blatant bending of the truth to avoid backing down.
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He is a Liverpool fan and very much Anti Jose, he has written some absolute rubbish before too.
 
roonster09 said:
He is a Liverpool fan and very much Anti Jose, he has written some absolute rubbish before too.
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Yeah, from listening to certain Second Captains Podcasts previously, and also even looking at the headlines to past articles in the Irish Times, he has a bit of an agenda with Jose and United. Someone like Dion Fanning, a D4 type Liverpool fan, has been not too dissimilar.
 
Not just this game, but ditching the premier league with 4 games to has turned out to be a master stroke. Our team looked like they could run all day.
 
I demand apologies from the usual anti-jose suspects.

Ajax 2 shots on target, both at Romero.

We dominated the whole game.
 
This game was truly masterclass from mourinho. Masterclass!!!
I can't remember when i watched united in finals so relaxed whole game.
Jose mourinho !
 
Just said in the post match thread it was quite bizarre actually to win an European Cup final in very easy circumstances. Kept expecting a hook that was never going to come because we didn't give Ajax a sniff.
 
One of the most comfortable games of the season in the one that had the most pressure attached to it

Hats off
 
ajax must feel like they've been running into a brick wall for 90 minutes.

Fantastic defending by us today. The gameplan worked almost perfectly. Probably should have got a 3rd but Jesse Lingard fluffed it.
 
I wouldn't call it a masterclass, Ajax were really poor, but it was efficient and that's been missing all season.
 
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