The Casemiro/Mount/Bruno midfield

How things would have been different if Frenkie wasn't such a **** for Barca. We'd have had him as our DLP and probably signed someone like Caicedo as our midfield workhorse instead of Mason feckin Mount.

Oh well, plenty of time to bring in some reinforcements in midfield.
 
mav_9me said:
Well City have played this way for a while with Silva and KDB in front of Fernandinho and even last year with Gundogan and KDB ahead of Rodri. Arsenal the same with Xhaka and Odegaard ahead of Partey, and now with the plan of Havertz and Odegaard ahead of Rice.

The fundamental difference is both their pressing is miles, miles better, while City ball possession is best in world, while Arsenal have an amazing transition defense ( Saliba)
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KdB, Silva are all world class players who don't lose the ball often and have huge control. Not to mention City is a well oiled and well drilled passing machine, we are nowhere near that.
 
Both Casemiro and Eriksen are past it. They both look leggy and tired after 45 minutes.

We will get run over on many occasions throughout the season. We need younger and more dynamics midfielders.
 
Midfield didn't work last night but moving forward it can definitely work.

The passing needs to be fair far better though for it to work when in possession.

Out of possession it works only when we win the ball high, which happened frequently, it's just again we are left massively exposed when the ball is given away cheaply in attacking positions.

We don't need a player alongside Casemiro all the time, that would detract massively from the high pressures that the likes of Mount, Bruno and the front line give. What we do need is for one of the wingbacks or central defenders to shuffle into the middle like City, Arsenal and Liverpool have been doing, as they all play a very similar way to what EtH wants, that way we won't be outnumbered.
 
Jacob said:
Both Casemiro and Eriksen are past it. They both look leggy and tired after 45 minutes.

We will get run over on many occasions throughout the season. We need younger and more dynamics midfielders.
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Casemiro started very slow last season also, and had similar weight on him. To say he's past it after one game is premature.
 
I wrote a couple of days ago in the ETH watch thread that i wished he went for a more technical, press resistant midfield. None of our midfielders are press resistant/good dribblers(Bruno especially treats the ball like a hot potato and tries to release it as soon as possible).

I was really hoping that ETH was going this summer for a physical, highly technical, press resistant ball carrier who is comfortable receiving the ball in deeper areas and who will help us bypass the press and progress the ball into the opponents's half of the pitch - the infamous, elusive Frenkie de Jong archetype. That didn't happen and we got the underwhelming attacking midfielder in Mason Mount who i never really rated highly.

When Hojlund arrives we are going to press better(he has a high workrate supposedly) and Rashford will be less frustrated and moved to his natural left flank, thus meaning we're going to win the ball back more often, at least against poorer sides.

But, the issue with lack of technical ability(ball carrying/press resistance/reliable deep line playmaking) of our midfield is going to persist. Casemiro can't progress the ball alone, he needs some serious help there. Fullbacks, Onana, Martinez, Bruno/Mount dropping back - i don't know. And Casemiro can't protect the whole backline by himself, there is a lot of space that he can't cover alone(probably his age plays a factor a little bit).

I'm starting to question ETH more and more. It started already somewhere in the winter when i realized that Antony is a very limited footballer and that ETH's talent evaluation is seriously disputable. Now, with this midfield setup, i'm starting to get really concerned. Tonight's performance was dreadful, we can all agree to that.
 
redIndianDevil said:
There were actual 8s and world class ones at that. Mount and Bruno are number 10s with no element of control.
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Fully agree. Just you said he can't work in a 433 with two 8's to which I think he can if Mount and Bruno change their games.
 
Shark said:
Casemiro started very slow last season also, and had similar weight on him. To say he's past it after one game is premature.
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I've felt the same last season. He was a liability at times. World class over a stretch of 7-8 games and then average.
 
Fortitude said:
The flanks are used to enable everyone to shuffle up the yards in behind and entrench themselves before then venturing into all those open spaces. The flanks are extremely important components in the midfield being able to steal lots of yards without doing much until the ball comes infield again. You can’t set your stall without them, which is part of the reason we were so massively disjointed.
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Yeah, and the winger he brought to help with that is constantly being shat upon by the majority of the fanbase (not that he was good yesterday, by the way). Shaw, with Martinez as a ball-playing left-footed centre-half, should be able to do the job on the left and allow Rashford (or Garnacho) to occupy more advanced positions. It can actually happen, if all the aforementioned players walk on the pitch with the brains inside their heads.

It's interesting to read some takes about yesterday's game (i'm not talking about you). Apparently, the solution to improve the build up against a conservative mid-block that won't engage your passers is to drop 6–7 players in deeper positions in our own half. The way to move the ball forward is to tell players to move backward, who would have thought?

Anyway, he took the risk because the midfield has to carry the onus of productivity. Why don't we use Casemiro like Real Madrid did, why don't we follow Liverpool's example and build a midfield with runners etc.? Because our attacking talent can't carry the whole team on their shoulders and make us compete for the highest honours. It's so freaking simple. They need heavy support. Who's going to provide it? AWB and Shaw? Even Klopp is changing his tune, with an ageing Salah and Nunez to lead the line. But, by all means, get a defensive #8 to play next to Casemiro and wait for Bruno, Rashford, Sancho, Martial and the rest of the gang to spearhead a title challenge on their own. And it's not like we didn't try it. It got us one point behind last season's tally. But who cares, right?
 
Kaos said:
How things would have been different if Frenkie wasn't such a **** for Barca. We'd have had him as our DLP and probably signed someone like Caicedo as our midfield workhorse instead of Mason feckin Mount.

Oh well, plenty of time to bring in some reinforcements in midfield.
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And we probably wouldn't have signed Antony.
 
If you pizza charted that midfield it would have very low ball retention, press resistance and physicality. They're going to get bypassed in a lot of games.
 
TsuWave said:
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Few of us mentioned this against Madrid, Dortmund and Lens and of course were dismissed on here as alarmists. I made a point of watching the other PL teams this past weekend when they're on the ball and nobody else plays like this. It is such a suicidal way to play football because if you give the ball away you are absolutely fecked.
 
ayushreddevil9 said:
Managers can make mistakes. No other big club is playing with such a lightweight midfield and with players who have no clue on how to play CM role except for Casemiro. Horrifyingly naive from ETH. He really believes that he can make it work with just 1 midfielder.

I wont be surprised if we get thumped once or twice again this season.
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I am dreading the trips to Anfield and Wastelands already. Especially after what happened last season at those places.

TsuWave said:
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Look at that picture. Do we think that's going to stand up to the Jürgen Klopp transition? Salah hat trick wouldn't shock would it?
 
It’s really bizarre! I remember Ole talking about how he wanted to play ‘more attacking’ with two number 8’s at the start of the season he got sacked! Similarly, teams just sliced through our midfield at ease. I’m wondering if this ‘style’ is coming from someone above as I can’t see why ETH would choose to play that way given how much he likes it to control games with possession!
 
Blaming Casimero for last night is absolute madness. I mean, did you see the yawning chasms that Wolves players were able to run into? How the hell is any one player meant to be able to cover that amount of space? He's not superman :lol: No wonder he was knackered in the second half.

The balance needs a bit of work, to say the least.
 
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It's predictable, running 2 Cams at once and a DM will not work.
Mount was the last player that we needed.
 
miked99 said:
Blaming Casimero for last night is absolute madness. I mean, did you see the yawning chasms that Wolves players were able to run into? How the hell is any one player meant to be able to cover that amount of space? He's not superman :lol: No wonder he was knackered in the second half.

The balance needs a bit of work, to say the least.
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Our manager certainly didn't, or he would have made changes at half time
 
The quick fix might be too big Amrabat, place him next to Casemiro and move mount to the right to replace Antony.

I doubt this happens till we get a couple of hammerings though. The good thing is that I believe ETH is not stubborn. He changes tactics when they don't work.

We sure have a very interesting couple of weeks ahead
 
zenith said:
The quick fix might be too big Amrabat, place him next to Casemiro and move mount to the right to replace Antony.

I doubt this happens till we get a couple of hammerings though. The good thing is that I believe ETH is not stubborn. He changes tactics when they don't work.

We sure have a very interesting couple of weeks ahead
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He was stubborn enough to start Weghorst 20 games in a row, when it was obvious he was shite from the first game.
 
AneRu said:
Eh because he will get sacked if this blows up in his face and he has no fall back plan to effectively use a 4-2-3-1. The players in question don't take care of the ball well enough which is prerequisite in this system and Casemiro is no deeplying playmaker then you compound those issues by our press not being effective because we lack intensity.

Another big issue is that Casemiro looks spent, he might pick up in form and fitness but he won't be the one to play 3 times a week for six months. We need his cover/competition and hopefully Mainoo comes back to play the 8. If we persist with this and lose ground in the rush for CL places ETH is gone by November and it's back to square one.
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I agree with you but Ten Haag doesn't. He thinks Casemiro/Bruno/Mount is a brilliant midfield. He bought two of them and made one Captain. He doesn't think we need players that can hold on to the ball or he would have bought them. That's my point. He doesn't think any of this. He has his plan and will stick to it even if he gets sacked. And that's the right way. If you just change your philosophy a few games. He did last season but that's because it wasn't his team
 
I know a lot are looking at the box midfield formation with Shaw moving inwards to assist Casemiro like Arsenal or City do, but don't think that'll work for us because of the way AWB, Antony and Bruno triangle plays on the right.

Once Shaw moves infield the remaining 3 at the back, in our case Martinez, Varane and Wan-Bissaka have to stay back and play passes through the lines as the rest will be man marked during build up. Unfortunately Wan-Bissaka is not that sort of player to play those passes, he is better at underlapping/overlapping and Antony needs his runs. Antony doesn't get the third midfielder who is good in possession in the half spaces to link up with and relies on Wan-Bissaka. Saka, Salah and B.Silva stretch play on their own and just have a midfielder infield to play around those areas, they rarely need their FB.

So we are either stuck with just our 2 CBs to take care of the transitions or have Shaw help out Martinez and Varane as the other FB has to go forward. This'll mess up the balance as the extra body in midfield isn't there anymore unless one of Mount or Bruno drop deep.

We either need someone like Pavard to replace AWB and have Bruno/Mount link up with Antony on the right or get a second midfielder alongside Casemiro to get the box midfield going like Barca do with someone alongside De Jong and let Balde take over the left wing or AWB in our case.
 
Rozay said:
Gary Neville saying last night that it’s s midfield you ‘can’t play in certain games. In some games he’ll want an extra player in there’. If those some games include Wolverhampton Wanderers at Old Trafford then you might as well say ‘every game’ and scrap this nonsense.
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Yeah I mean I struggle to see any game in which that midfield works if Bruno and Mount are going to be that all over the place.
 
It will be interesting to see if he sticks with it or goes back to a double pivot.

Wolves at home is probably one of the easier games to try it so if it doesn't work against them, it would be a disaster against better teams.
 
The midfield is not the only issue, it is also our attackers getting into each other position and either trying to go for a dribble that won't work or passing it to someone too close to them . We are attacking in big numbers but most of the time we dont look like a team but instead like a bunch of individuals trying to score.

I think ETH thought underrated Wolves by putting Bruno and Mount into attacking positions and that exposed our midfield completely. I think a whole different setup will be in place next weekend.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
Yep sort of how I felt watching the game. People slating Casemiro who wasn’t good but my god there isn’t a DM in history that’s going to look good in that setup.

And I’m shocked that Mount is basically playing as a forward. Almost like that’s his best position at Chelsea !
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Don't tell anyone but I'm already starting to see that I was wrong when defending the Mount signing... As an option in the Eriksen role, fine. I can understand that. But we desperately need someone who can provide Casemiro with cover in games like this and neither Mount nor Fernandes are going to do that.

There's no point in trying to press high when we leave massive gaps like this.
 
waza7111 said:
It will be interesting to see if he sticks with it or goes back to a double pivot.

Wolves at home is probably one of the easier games to try it so if it doesn't work against them, it would be a disaster against better teams.
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The most annoying thing was that in the last game against Wolves they (might have been Neto again) danced through the middle of our midfield a few times as well. How it wasn't top of the list of "things to fix" I have no idea.
 
It's a CM 2 against Spurs, has to be, 4-3-3 doesn't work.. Casimero was isolated as was Mount Bruno had no options as we haven't got a Striker.. Rashford has to play on the left, Garnacho sub with impact, Sancho starts, or Martial up front.. we're Better when Sancho come on.. but not much.. Casimero Mount and Bruno does not work..
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Don't tell anyone but I'm already starting to see that I was wrong when defending the Mount signing... As an option in the Eriksen role, fine. I can understand that. But we desperately need someone who can provide Casemiro with cover in games like this and neither Mount nor Fernandes are going to do that.

There's no point in trying to press high when we leave massive gaps like this.
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Yeah the Mount saga was just so frustrating to me because even if you believed he could play as an advanced 8 in a good team, OUR team and personnel wasn’t really a good fit for it. Bruno is wasted if you aren’t letting him roam behind the striker creating from all over, and neither him nor Mount have the physicality/pace to really play that high up the pitch without leaving Casemiro for dead. They both are hard workers but that doesn’t mean much when your chasing Nunes for the 5th time as a spins away on a counter.

The entire point of Mount was supposed to be a pressing trigger and good carrier, but he’s so fecking high up the pitch that it’s pointless and he’ll never actually get on the ball. Why the feck do we want him running in behind constantly? Just bizarre stuff that really has me worried for the next games (and normally I’m quite optimistic about the team)
 
Onana
AWB - Varane - Martinez - Shaw
Casemiro - Amrabat
Mount/Antony - Bruno - Rashford
Hojlund
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This might have a chance of beating the top teams. No other configuration we have will.
 
waza7111 said:
It will be interesting to see if he sticks with it or goes back to a double pivot.

Wolves at home is probably one of the easier games to try it so if it doesn't work against them, it would be a disaster against better teams.
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If we go back to a double pivot then we’d be doing so with the same options to play with as last season, or even worse options minus Fred. Going to a double pivot would mean that we invested big in midfield yet still be unable to improve our strongest midfield. Unless of course Mount plays alongside Casemiro. Double pivot would mean it would likely have taken no more than a handful of games to render Mount a complete waste of 55m (plus very high wages).

If this doesn’t work it is on Ten Hag’s head. He has built his team now. He’s replaced all the parts of the first XI he didn’t fancy, perhaps with the exception of RB. If the result is to have a midfield that doesn’t work, then I he will have no one to blame and nowhere to hide.
 
If this is to be the midfield moving forward then the press from the front has to be so much better, and we need much more from our full backs tucking into midfield to help Casemiro. Otherwise he will be overrun most games.
 
hobbers said:
Onana
AWB - Varane - Martinez - Shaw
Casemiro - Amrabat
Mount/Antony - Bruno - Rashford
Hojlund
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This might have a chance of beating the top teams. No other configuration we have will.
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This is not a configuration we have either!
 
Jacob said:
Both Casemiro and Eriksen are past it. They both look leggy and tired after 45 minutes.

We will get run over on many occasions throughout the season. We need younger and more dynamics midfielders.
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Both were the least of our problems yesterday. Bruno and especially Mount were a joke. Left Case completely alone in the middle of the park. No idea what Mount's purpose is in that set up
 
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