The end of Rooney

I appreciate Rooney discussion is hardly fresh or new, but to be honest I am so tired of thinking about the identity of our manager next season, this seems like as good a subject in which to find sanctuary as any other.

I was just looking at people's thoughts about our strongest XI in another thread on that subject. I counted 17 people had given their strongest teams, Rooney was in 7 of them.

I think Rooney still has something left to offer. the question is whether what he offers represents value for money, given the wages he's on. I think not, which I think is probably the majority opinion among fans. But that may be academic, seeing as it may be impossible to sell Rooney if he doesnt want to leave. It will be interesting to see how that pans out but I expect him to be with us next season.

I just hope whoever comes in - and I personally expect that to be Mourinho - has the courage to tackle this Rooney situation decisively. I hope he can find a way to motivate him so he can be a valuable member of the squad, but that we strengthen our attacking options and he is not starter. Crucially, I hope he can find a way to do this without creating a toxic presence in the dressing room - especially after what happened at Chelsea.

Its a real dilemma, and after the decision about our manager, I think perhaps the most important issue we have to resolve this summer. Put another way, when the new manager arrives, figuring out what to do with Rooney is going to be his biggest decision.

Im not sure he is the kind of player who is going to thrive as an impact sub, an experienced striker who can come on and change a game, having not played for a few weeks, because he is so streaky and seems to only excel when he gets a good run of form going. But he surely cannot continue to be a first XI player next season. I fear if he does, any progress we make next season is going to be incremental.

Still, there is the chance that Mourinho will be able to breath new life into him, or figure out a way to play him that makes the most of his strengths and minimises his weaknesses. Personally I expect that to be Plan A. I fully expect Rooney to go into next season as a starter, regardless of who we buy. But I guess how much time he is given will depend on the composition of the squad, as well as how he does.
 
Players on that level of money are supposed to be the difference makers. The player who can win you 10-15 points a season with moments that nobody else can produce.

Is Wayne Rooney that any more? No.
 
Adebesi said:
I appreciate Rooney discussion is hardly fresh or new, but to be honest I am so tired of thinking about the identity of our manager next season, this seems like as good a subject in which to find sanctuary as any other.

I was just looking at people's thoughts about our strongest XI in another thread on that subject. I counted 17 people had given their strongest teams, Rooney was in 7 of them.

I think Rooney still has something left to offer. the question is whether what he offers represents value for money, given the wages he's on. I think not, which I think is probably the majority opinion among fans. But that may be academic, seeing as it may be impossible to sell Rooney if he doesnt want to leave. It will be interesting to see how that pans out but I expect him to be with us next season.

I just hope whoever comes in - and I personally expect that to be Mourinho - has the courage to tackle this Rooney situation decisively. I hope he can find a way to motivate him so he can be a valuable member of the squad, but that we strengthen our attacking options and he is not starter. Crucially, I hope he can find a way to do this without creating a toxic presence in the dressing room - especially after what happened at Chelsea.

Its a real dilemma, and after the decision about our manager, I think perhaps the most important issue we have to resolve this summer. Put another way, when the new manager arrives, figuring out what to do with Rooney is going to be his biggest decision.

Im not sure he is the kind of player who is going to thrive as an impact sub, an experienced striker who can come on and change a game, having not played for a few weeks, because he is so streaky and seems to only excel when he gets a good run of form going. But he surely cannot continue to be a first XI player next season. I fear if he does, any progress we make next season is going to be incremental.

Still, there is the chance that Mourinho will be able to breath new life into him, or figure out a way to play him that makes the most of his strengths and minimises his weaknesses. Personally I expect that to be Plan A. I fully expect Rooney to go into next season as a starter, regardless of who we buy. But I guess how much time he is given will depend on the composition of the squad, as well as how he does.
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Very good post and I think your bang on really, it's a dilemma and not as easy to deal with as some fans make out. Love him or hate him Rooney is a Utd legend and not only that an English media darling. He still sells shirts and has an association as a big player and with that he carries a large say in the dressing room, handle this wrong and you've got a squad revolt on the cards.

The big question to me is "is he really done?". The problem is we don't know the answer to this, I thought against villa he was very good in the first half especially considering he's had a long layoff and I think he offered more in the role than Mata or Herrera have on many occasions this season. I firmly believe that he isn't suited to LVGs death by passing style (like most of the players) and would fair a lot better in a counter attacking/fast paced unit. I'm also of the opinion that Mourniho will come in as manager next year and I think he might surprise afew people with Rooney. I fully expect him to still play a major role and I think (and hope) Mourinho can drag out that extra 10% that has been missing from his game for a couple of years.

However, as has been mentioned, it's fundamental that we sign some more top class players, and to me pace is key. I'm keen on sanches the young cm because I think he would add a drive through midfield that we lack. witgout going full muppet I think this team could do very well next year under Mourinho.

----------------De Gea-----------------
---Darmian-Spalling--Blind---shaw--
---------------Schniderlin--------
--------Rooney----------Sanches/Herrera--
--Griezman-----Rashford-----Martial

Rooney certainly would have the passing range for the game and I think if instructed and coached correctly this could be a role that would suit him. Sanches or Herrera would add greater energy to the team to allow Rooney that bit more freedom to roam while that front 3 would have bundles of pace and the abilty to interchange positions on the fly.
 
@Adebesi the biggest problem is that rooney will throw his tantrum if he's not first choice, he's not the type that admit and accepts that he's lucky not to be binned

My biggest fear is that he'll simply stink up the place creating drama via his loyal pundit supporters while at the same time making the new manager job harder than it already is
 
TrustInJanuzai said:
----------------De Gea-----------------
---Darmian-Spalling--Blind---shaw--
---------------Schniderlin--------
--------Rooney----------Sanches/Herrera--
--Griezman-----Rashford-----Martial

Rooney certainly would have the passing range for the game and I think if instructed and coached correctly this could be a role that would suit him. Sanches or Herrera would add greater energy to the team to allow Rooney that bit more freedom to roam while that front 3 would have bundles of pace and the abilty to interchange positions on the fly.
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His first touch and short passing are nowhere near good enough to be a central midfielder - both in quality and consistency. Even his fabled pings out to the right wing often go wayward or are too floaty.
 
I have given up hope of him being sold. What I just ask, is that this Rooney must play white must end.
 
Welsh Wonder said:
His first touch and short passing are nowhere near good enough to be a central midfielder - both in quality and consistency. Even his fabled pings out to the right wing often go wayward or are too floaty.
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Honestly it's not even his passing that's the problem. I actually really like his ball playing ability (though I agree his first touch lets him down sometimes), but what really makes him unsuitable in midfield is his positional sense, which is really, really bad. He just runs all over the place, and he's terrible at marking. His work rate is good I guess, but it doesn't quite make up for it.
 
Sky1981 said:
@Adebesi the biggest problem is that rooney will throw his tantrum if he's not first choice, he's not the type that admit and accepts that he's lucky not to be binned

My biggest fear is that he'll simply stink up the place creating drama via his loyal pundit supporters while at the same time making the new manager job harder than it already is
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Absolutely. I wonder how Mourinho will handle that. Im sure in the past, if he had felt he wasnt delivering on the pitch, he would have just dropped him and to hell with the consequences. Maybe he will still do that. But I wonder whether, having only just escaped one dressing room revolt, he will be mindful of doing anything that might trigger another one.

But then I also wonder whether Rooney does have sufficient influence in the dressing room to cause that revolt. If they can see he has to fight for his place the same as everyone else they might think that's fair enough, Rooney could end up being the one who is isolated.

I dont know how it would play out.
 
If the rumours about Ibrahimovic are true, that surely means the end for Rooney at United. We're not going to employ two thirty-something strikers on mega wages, are we? I'd imagine Ibra is a direct replacement for Rooney, both on the football and the marketing sides.
 
How do people still think he can play in midfield, he'd end up as our Charlie Adam. A few long balls go the wing doesn't make him Paul Scholes.
 
JohnnyKills said:
If the rumours about Ibrahimovic are true, that surely means the end for Rooney at United. We're not going to employ two thirty-something strikers on mega wages, are we? I'd imagine Ibra is a direct replacement for Rooney, both on the football and the marketing sides.
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It could happen. If we take into consideration that the Ibrahimovic rumors are linked directly with the appointment of Mourinho, we could see a return to a more direct/counter attacking 4-4-1-1 with Rooney in the second striker role he had under Ferguson. And we could keep the most promising youngsters (Rashford and Januzaj) right behind those two in the pecking order. Maybe that's the kind of deal we're trying to make with Jose, who knows? As for the wages, i suspect that Mata, the second highest paid player in the team, will probably leave the club if we appoint Mourinho.
 
Anyone that still thinks Rooney should be at this club.. post this season needs their heads checked in my opinion.
 
This suggestion from some fans and pundits that Rooney can drop into midfield is what really baffles me, its ludicrous.

He cant play one-two's, his short range passing is abysmal, his mobility is awful, he hasn't been sharp in years and is forever getting caught on the ball and dispossessed, he often slows down play turning backwards rather than going forwards when we have options ahead of him, and his control is easily the worst in the whole squad outside of the defence, and most of them are even better.

Put in midfield he has one single tool, his 40+ yard passing that he's got by on for years having Valencia at right wing. But watch the Villa game again and even this was abysmal, the simplest of ranged passes were sliced or simply 20 yards behind the intended player.

He's be done for years, this summer should finally be the time for the club to accept this and end his time here on silly wages that he hasn't been worth for 4 years.
 
In many respects it would be better if he played a lesser role in Utd, moving forward.However, I don't think that Mourinho,if he is appointed, would get rid as quickly as some may think
 
I love him dearly but I don't see him justifying his salary or place on the team. Being our captain, most high profile player and oh so close to our record goal scorer I'm willing to allow him at least half a season under a new manager. If by Christmas he is still a weight around the teams neck the club should let go.
 
GimmeAKitKat said:
This suggestion from some fans and pundits that Rooney can drop into midfield is what really baffles me, its ludicrous.

He cant play one-two's, his short range passing is abysmal, his mobility is awful, he hasn't been sharp in years and is forever getting caught on the ball and dispossessed, he often slows down play turning backwards rather than going forwards when we have options ahead of him, and his control is easily the worst in the whole squad outside of the defence, and most of them are even better.

Put in midfield he has one single tool, his 40+ yard passing that he's got by on for years having Valencia at right wing. But watch the Villa game again and even this was abysmal, the simplest of ranged passes were sliced or simply 20 yards behind the intended player.

He's be done for years, this summer should finally be the time for the club to accept this and end his time here on silly wages that he hasn't been worth for 4 years.
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You can put Rooney in any position in the pitch and he will always end up in midfield, that's our bloody problem. Now Rooney picks the ball up around half way, no options in front because he can't pass to himself. He then pings a beautiful 40 yard pass to the opposite flank and but there is no option for a quick cross or one two because Wayne is busting a gut trying to get in to the position he was meant to be in in the first place. For all the stiff controlled possession Van Gaal likes I'm surprised he allows Rooney the freedom to roam around like that. He knows we inevitably have to move forward so what's going on?
 
He is a beneficiary of this club, not the other way round, and as soon as he stops producing the goods on the pitch it is time to bring in a new face. There is little inherently marketable or likeable about Rooney and it was the spirit and nature of his play that made him the 'great white hope'. These facets have long since faded from his game, and whilst he is not without qualities they certainly fall some way short of justifying any sort of fuss in trying to accommodate him.

Older players can serve a purpose through their experience and personality on the pitch but Wayne hasn't excelled at doing these things. He is still petulant, moody and incredibly ill-disciplined when it comes to any sort of positional responsibility, which was all fine when he had the physical traits to overcome these faults. He no longer does and the gaping holes and inconsistencies, that have always been in his game, become ever more apparent as he has less and less to off-set them with (finishing and the odd diagonal ball are the only real tools left in his locker).

Where the idea of squad revolt comes from I'll never know. I'm sure they think he is a nice guy and get along with him, who wouldn't try to stay on the right side of the captain, longest serving player and a chap built up as 'Mr Man Utd' by the media. Does that mean they would be willing to jeopardise their own careers by getting stroppy if he was moved on. I can't imagine so as most of the players have no long term affiliation to the club let alone Rooney and I always thought it was far more likely that there would be a revolt over Rooney's untouchable status, despite his abject performances, than over his departure.

Moving on from Rooney is the last step required before we can genuinely build a new team and consider challenging on a regular basis. A new manager might come in and find a way to make it work with Rooney for a season but he would have to mitigate Rooney more than anything else and it would simply be a case of kicking the can along the road. We have seen the best of Rooney and whatever he may offer going forward isn't some rare, irreplaceable thing. He would be doing 'a job' and based on the erratic nature of his form we couldn't be entirely sure, thus reliant, on what kind of job that would be. Shoehorning him in anywhere is sentimentalism at it's worst when we could quite easily find someone more suited.
 
facund said:
He is a beneficiary of this club, not the other way round, and as soon as he stops producing the goods on the pitch it is time to bring in a new face. There is little inherently marketable or likeable about Rooney and it was the spirit and nature of his play that made him the 'great white hope'. These facets have long since faded from his game, and whilst he is not without qualities they certainly fall some way short of justifying any sort of fuss in trying to accommodate him.

Older players can serve a purpose through their experience and personality on the pitch but Wayne hasn't excelled at doing these things. He is still petulant, moody and incredibly ill-disciplined when it comes to any sort of positional responsibility, which was all fine when he had the physical traits to overcome these faults. He no longer does and the gaping holes and inconsistencies, that have always been in his game, become ever more apparent as he has less and less to off-set them with (finishing and the odd diagonal ball are the only real tools left in his locker).

Where the idea of squad revolt comes from I'll never know. I'm sure they think he is a nice guy and get along with him, who wouldn't try to stay on the right side of the captain, longest serving player and a chap built up as 'Mr Man Utd' by the media. Does that mean they would be willing to jeopardise their own careers by getting stroppy if he was moved on. I can't imagine so as most of the players have no long term affiliation to the club let alone Rooney and I always thought it was far more likely that there would be a revolt over Rooney's untouchable status, despite his abject performances, than over his departure.

Moving on from Rooney is the last step required before we can genuinely build a new team and consider challenging on a regular basis. A new manager might come in and find a way to make it work with Rooney for a season but he would have to mitigate Rooney more than anything else and it would simply be a case of kicking the can along the road. We have seen the best of Rooney and whatever he may offer going forward isn't some rare, irreplaceable thing. He would be doing 'a job' and based on the erratic nature of his form we couldn't be entirely sure, thus reliant, on what kind of job that would be. Shoehorning him in anywhere is sentimentalism at it's worst when we could quite easily find someone more suited.
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Excellent post.
 
If he was moved on there would be no issue. Players wont revolt about that.

The problem is we cant move him on. Not unless we find someone to buy him, and he agrees to go. How many clubs are there that will pay his wages? Of those, how many are in leagues Rooney will want to go to?

Ive said this many times on here before, but the only solution I can see is America. I dont reckon he would want to go there until he knows the game is up here, I imagine he will want to fight for his place rather than accept he is finished at this level. So I can only see a period of him being on the bench, not getting games and being frustrated. Then a move to the US starts to look more appealing.

But it is that period that he is still here, in the dressing room, but not getting games - that is where the risk of him spreading discontent comes in. Like I said before Im not saying it will definitely happen, if other players feel him being dropped is justified then maybe it wont matter. But if he is as popular and influential as ITK journalists say, maybe he can create an unpleasant atmosphere that can become an issue. Hopefully Mourinho will manage that. He must be prepared for it to some extent, he must see this as a potential problem he has thought about.
 
Adebesi said:
If he was moved on there would be no issue. Players wont revolt about that.

The problem is we cant move him on. Not unless we find someone to buy him, and he agrees to go. How many clubs are there that will pay his wages? Of those, how many are in leagues Rooney will want to go to?

Ive said this many times on here before, but the only solution I can see is America. I dont reckon he would want to go there until he knows the game is up here, I imagine he will want to fight for his place rather than accept he is finished at this level. So I can only see a period of him being on the bench, not getting games and being frustrated. Then a move to the US starts to look more appealing.

But it is that period that he is still here, in the dressing room, but not getting games - that is where the risk of him spreading discontent comes in. Like I said before Im not saying it will definitely happen, if other players feel him being dropped is justified then maybe it wont matter. But if he is as popular and influential as ITK journalists say, maybe he can create an unpleasant atmosphere that can become an issue. Hopefully Mourinho will manage that. He must be prepared for it to some extent, he must see this as a potential problem he has thought about.
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I don't know why people think another club would have to pay his exact wage he's on here. If we truly wanted him sold, and limited his game time to the point he wouldn't even be considered for England anymore, he'd have to take a pay cut elsewhere for regular games.
 
Besides the point though, he's back from injury and has been slotted back in. Had a decent first half too.

He's going nowhere.
 
Shark said:
I don't know why people think another club would have to pay his exact wage he's on here. If we truly wanted him sold, and limited his game time to the point he wouldn't even be considered for England anymore, he'd have to take a pay cut elsewhere for regular games.
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In theory that's true.

In practice I get the impression that footballers taking massive pay cuts to go somewhere and play more is quite rare. Maybe its not, I have no idea, but in the end its the same thing: he stays and gets frozen out until he is willing to move. And that's where you have the risk of a deeply unhappy and very influential player creating a negative environment.
 
He's finished as a high-level difference maker. Sure, he was OK against mighty Villa, but any of lingard/mata/herrera/pereira/etc could have done that job.
 
Ventura said:
He's finished as a high-level difference maker. Sure, he was OK against mighty Villa, but any of lingard/mata/herrera/pereira/etc could have done that job.
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I can't remember the last time one of them actually dictated play. Rooney was shite for the majority of the game but he did have an influence that none of those players have been able to have. For example that ball to Valencia that led to our first and only goal.
 
verminater said:
An assist to an assist?
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You hear players getting praise all of the time for starting an attack that leads to a goal. Not sure why Rooney shouldn't, as some on here are saying he had no impact on the game.
 
Shark said:
You hear players getting praise all of the time for starting an attack that leads to a goal. Not sure why Rooney shouldn't, as some on here are saying he had no impact on the game.
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He played a percentage pass. What happened after that had little to do with him.
I fear that you are clutching at straws.
There is not a system that can accommodate him where a better option can be found for peanuts.
He has no pace or dribbling ability to play up front (and his shooting has been off for a while), and he has poor control and can't time a pass well enough to play a withdrawn role.
A former legend? Yes.
Worth a place in our team? Not if we have any ambition.
 
verminater said:
He played a percentage pass. What happened after that had little to do with him.
I fear that you are clutching at straws.
There is not a system that can accommodate him where a better option can be found for peanuts.
He has no pace or dribbling ability to play up front (and his shooting has been off for a while), and he has poor control and can't time a pass well enough to play a withdrawn role.
A former legend? Yes.
Worth a place in our team? Not if we have any ambition.
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I don't even want to clutch at straws, I'd happily want him sold if we could find a player truly worthy of his wages, but my point is that right now the likes of Herrera, Mata and Lingard aren't doing any better, so right now he is worth a place in the team until someone steps up or we purchase someone else.
 
Shark said:
I don't even want to clutch at straws, I'd happily want him sold if we could find a player truly worthy of his wages, but my point is that right now the likes of Herrera, Mata and Lingard aren't doing any better, so right now he is worth a place in the team until someone steps up or we purchase someone else.
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That's fair. If we let him go we should definitely be replacing him with quality. We should be replacing him with someone of the quality that Rooney himself was supposed to be. As in, a star player, someone who will score 25 goals in a season and more often than not make the difference when he plays.
 
Shark said:
I don't even want to clutch at straws, I'd happily want him sold if we could find a player truly worthy of his wages, but my point is that right now the likes of Herrera, Mata and Lingard aren't doing any better, so right now he is worth a place in the team until someone steps up or we purchase someone else.
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My point is, it doesn't have to be a player worthy of his wages. To play at his level,we could shop at the bargain level and be better.
Rashford is producing more up front than him. Lingard is better at no.10.
An upgrade on the current Rooney does not have to be very special. Of course if we can fill his spot with a real game changer, then that would justify a greater outlay.
 
Two things about Rooney and his role at United next season:
1. Read comments from other pros. I get that we're jaded, cynical, spoilt fans and so put him down as a default, but pretty much every player that comes to United comments on how good Rooney is in training, how professional he is and so forth. He's in a weird situation where his previous brilliance means his current level is severely underrated.

2. Our current attacking midfielders (Lingard, Mata, Herrera, Fellaini) aren't creating or scoring enough chances. Neither are our wingers (as we very rarely even play with true wingers). One thing Rooney will always give you is chances, he's extremely progressive with his passing. Leads to lost possession, but he'll try and create when he's on the ball.

For me he's absolutely done as a centre forward, which is sad and somewhat unexpected given the optimism most felt back in August. But he can still be a useful attacking presence for me, even this lower level Rooney is still far better than a Jesse Lingard, or this year's Herrera.
 
LonelyFire said:
Players on that level of money are supposed to be the difference makers. The player who can win you 10-15 points a season with moments that nobody else can produce.

Is Wayne Rooney that any more? No.
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Well when he is in form though, he can be quite good. Even in his bad season he has scored close to 15 goals in all competitions even though he was clearly not at his best. But Rooney has always gone on to have good seasons right when people have given up on him (after the 10-11 and 12-13 seasons where he wasn't great, he had top seasons).

Regarding the wage, it's a compensation paid to him based on past performances, royalties and stuff like that. In all likelihood the club would have already recovered most of the wages they would have to pay for the rest of his contract through image rights and stuff. I don't think that's a big problem for us in that aspect. In fact financially it may be viable for us if he stays than otherwise.
 
Beachryan said:
Two things about Rooney and his role at United next season:
1. Read comments from other pros. I get that we're jaded, cynical, spoilt fans and so put him down as a default, but pretty much every player that comes to United comments on how good Rooney is in training, how professional he is and so forth. He's in a weird situation where his previous brilliance means his current level is severely underrated.

2. Our current attacking midfielders (Lingard, Mata, Herrera, Fellaini) aren't creating or scoring enough chances. Neither are our wingers (as we very rarely even play with true wingers). One thing Rooney will always give you is chances, he's extremely progressive with his passing. Leads to lost possession, but he'll try and create when he's on the ball.

For me he's absolutely done as a centre forward, which is sad and somewhat unexpected given the optimism most felt back in August. But he can still be a useful attacking presence for me, even this lower level Rooney is still far better than a Jesse Lingard, or this year's Herrera.
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Are you sure you are talking about this season?

How many chances does he create compared to Mata? What do stats say?
 
Point 1 is fluff from fellow pros, and irrelevant.
Point 2 I really can't agree with what you say he offers in a withdrawn role. I have seen no evidence to support it. In fact, the evidence is that we create very little with him there.
 
Shark said:
I can't remember the last time one of them actually dictated play. Rooney was shite for the majority of the game but he did have an influence that none of those players have been able to have. For example that ball to Valencia that led to our first and only goal.
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He played he exact same long diagonal ball to the right that he always plays, just for some reason Villa acted like they'd never seen it before so he pulled it off a few times. This doesn't suddenly mean he's ready to move to a deeper position.
 
gza the genius said:
He played he exact same long diagonal ball to the right that he always plays, just for some reason Villa acted like they'd never seen it before so he pulled it off a few times. This doesn't suddenly mean he's ready to move to a deeper position.
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Who in our current squad is ready to pick up that role though? I really do wish we had someone better, but in my eyes we really don't.
 
Beachryan said:
Two things about Rooney and his role at United next season:
1. Read comments from other pros. I get that we're jaded, cynical, spoilt fans and so put him down as a default, but pretty much every player that comes to United comments on how good Rooney is in training, how professional he is and so forth. He's in a weird situation where his previous brilliance means his current level is severely underrated.

2. Our current attacking midfielders (Lingard, Mata, Herrera, Fellaini) aren't creating or scoring enough chances. Neither are our wingers (as we very rarely even play with true wingers). One thing Rooney will always give you is chances, he's extremely progressive with his passing. Leads to lost possession, but he'll try and create when he's on the ball.

For me he's absolutely done as a centre forward, which is sad and somewhat unexpected given the optimism most felt back in August. But he can still be a useful attacking presence for me, even this lower level Rooney is still far better than a Jesse Lingard, or this year's Herrera.
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But aren't they basically asked how it is to be training/playing with Rooney? Rooney is still the biggest name in the squad and players are directly asked about him. Of course any given player will not be calling him out in the media.
 
Rooney had scored 14 goals in 34 appearances despite playing in the most defensive system United had ever played in + his injuries. He's in decline but he's far from finished.

Comparisions with Falcao are odious
 
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