The "England have had it easy" narrative
- Thread starter Alex99
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
It's quiet in work today so I thought I'd pass the time while sounding busy. Keyboard clatter and all that.
You read the OP, surely?. I haven't gone past the first two pages but there are people trying to justify the route as not being so easy.
Of course its been an easy route, but lets compare the fixtures for the previous finalists in the 2014 world cup.
Germany beat 10 man Portugal, drew with Ghana and beat USA. Beat Algeria, France, Brazil and then Argentina in the final. A pretty tough run, much like the other side of the draw to England in this World Cup.
Argentina’s route was Nigeria, Iran and Bosnia in the group stages.Switzerland in first round knockouts, Belgium in the 1/4s and Netherlands in Semis.
I would say Argentina’s route wasn’t much more difficult then our run at the moment, considering Croatia are a pretty good team on their day and likewise Columbia on paper is a tricky fixture. At the end of the day if we get to the final it is one hell of an achievement, especially for this England side who before the tournament wasn’t even given a sniff of a chance of winning it. The pressure and stress the team is under to perform is incredible. The fact so many top teams were knocked out early by below average and ordinary teams proves how difficult playing in this tournament is, yet here England are smashing it.
Germany beat 10 man Portugal, drew with Ghana and beat USA. Beat Algeria, France, Brazil and then Argentina in the final. A pretty tough run, much like the other side of the draw to England in this World Cup.
Argentina’s route was Nigeria, Iran and Bosnia in the group stages.Switzerland in first round knockouts, Belgium in the 1/4s and Netherlands in Semis.
I would say Argentina’s route wasn’t much more difficult then our run at the moment, considering Croatia are a pretty good team on their day and likewise Columbia on paper is a tricky fixture. At the end of the day if we get to the final it is one hell of an achievement, especially for this England side who before the tournament wasn’t even given a sniff of a chance of winning it. The pressure and stress the team is under to perform is incredible. The fact so many top teams were knocked out early by below average and ordinary teams proves how difficult playing in this tournament is, yet here England are smashing it.
Not our fault those Mexican tw*ts couldn't do the same
Haha I'm just playing around.
Still, I think it is difficult to claim Germany would be an all conquering team, considering they picked up 3 points in a group most people would probably have picked as one of the weaker ones pre tournament.
I'm mostly just questioning why people are looking at names rather than performances rather than results. Yep Italy and Netherlands are great teams historically but they're currently really not very good. Sweden knocked both out. Sweden knocked out Germany. Does this mean Sweden has a better team? Clearly not.
Does Croatia have a better team than Argentina? Or Spain? No. Yet they humbled one and knocked out the team that beat Spain. Yet apparently we should cow in fear at Spain, Italy, Netherlands...because of what? Their names?
England's lack of success and all-round poor performances in the various international competitions over the years has certainly been painful to witness for the fans who, spurred on the by the overly ambitious English media (who themselves get a kick out of building the national team up only to watch them fall apart), tend to harbor higher than normal expectations.
So now that we have exceeded initial expectations, it's only natural for the fans to go overboard with their praise of the players and defend them to the hilt. They say patriotism is dead, this thread suggests otherwise.
It has been easy though. In comparison to what you would usually need to do to get to a world cup semi final...England probably aren't one of the best four teams in the world and haven't had to beat any of the best four teams in the world (you can debate over which four teams this is, but it's definitely not Sweden or Colombia).
I just don't see the point in pretending any differently. When United got to a CL final and the best side they had to play was a completely out of sorts Chelsea, I didn't see anyone on here bemoaning how easy it was. People were just glad we'd got there.
With England there seems to be this chip on people's shoulder about how they got there or who they played. Who bloody cares. If we'd beat France and Brazil to get to the semis, then amazing...but it's much more likely that would have meant trudging home in the 2nd round.
I actually admire their debating skills, and I guess it’s what makes forums fun places. Keeps us all on our toes. But yeah, playing form teams who have shown higher, more consistent levels of performance than some of the pre-tournament favourites doesn’t make them easy games, but of course a lot easier than facing the French.
Yeah, I did, I was more referring to the follow-up replies from both sides of the fence. The OP makes a lot of sense to be fair.
That's just from one page! I can't be bothered trawling through your other posts about this homogenous blob you refer to as "England fans".
I stand by what I said.
The only decent side they have faced till now is Belgium.. Colombia were missing James.
They have deserved it .. but saying they didnt get lucky with the draw or have had it easy is silly.
But it doesnt really matter. No one will remember the path to the semis in a few weeks..
They have deserved it .. but saying they didnt get lucky with the draw or have had it easy is silly.
But it doesnt really matter. No one will remember the path to the semis in a few weeks..
Understand all of that. At the same time think people without a vested interest in the team should be allowed to make comments about the tournament and route to final without being labelled sad and bitter or accused of being anti English by hyper sensitive fans. Nobody is saying anything controversial but the defensive reactions have been pretty cagey at times
This is equally as much of a wind up. Don’t see why it is so difficult to accept the blindingly obvious? I’m very happy we have reached the semis, and that’s all that matters. Nobody gonna remember, Nobody gonna care who we beat to get there. I don’t. But damn arguing it’s not been easy and the other half “appears” to be tougher in comparison is just...
Would you rather draw the champions of Austria in the knock out round of the CL, or the 2nd best team from Spain?
That doesn’t surprise me, but I feel you’re expecting an unrealistic qualifying of every single statement and are raising the issue purely because you disagree with it. If it makes you feel better edit my posts with whatever qualifier makes you feel comfortable. You’ve neglected to quote my post that actively discourages lumping all England fans together. You’re arguing with the wrong person I think, or have created an illusion that you feel justifies your anger.
There are indeed posts in here that would really irritate me if I was an English fan. Offhand and snide comments in places on the forum. Seems odd that my posts provoked such annoyance but that’s your prerogative
I agree that this is a pointless discussion but it's not the English who've been saying this since the draw happened.
When England finished second and there was talks of semi finals, there was an uproar of arrogance levelled by the other home nations because England dared to dream, now the home nations are saying 'easy draw' and lucky. I would suggest that the OP is aiming his post at those and not the rest of us who are just happy we're still in the competition at this stage.
When you state something as fact then you can expect to be asked to back it up. You’re aware that different people can think it’s easy and another entirely different group of people can think they’ll lose. All I’m asking is for you to show me one person on this forum who said you would lose to Colombia or Sweden who are now saying the games were easy. Shouldn’t be too hard given how many are supposedly doing it.
Certainly, this a public forum where people of all nationalities are free to post their opinions and whatnot, just don't be surprised when the England fans respond with highly defensive retorts. We are quite precious where our national team is concerned. Personally, I blame the English press.
This.
To win any competition, you have to beat the best at some point. England have played the in-form teams of the competition so far, if they've have knocked out Argentina and Spain on the way to the semi's, people would still be saying 'yeah, but they've been shit this tournament'.
So it doesn't matter what you say and it's pointless discussing it. I'm sure many would have rather played Leicester than United, City, Chelsea or Tottenham a couple of years back...
I get that too. I think having been labelled bitter, sad, sanctimonious, preachy and accused of having a chip on my shoulder about English people, despite all my posts being fair - and truly not especially perturbed by the prospect of England winning it (though I’d rather they didn’t) mean I’m more inclined to argue my corner. On a fundamental level it does seem odd that some would resort to such name calling rather than concede an inch about England’s route.
If we're being honest, there hasn't really been a standout team in this tournament and most of the traditionally great sides have either underwhelmed or didn't even qualify. The openness and unpredictability is what's made it so entertaining. Nobody supporting England is going to give a sh1t about the route to the final if we find another level and beat Croatia. Hodgson's England wouldn't even have made it this far, irrespective of the opponent!
To get to a World Cup semi by beating...
Tunisia
Panama
Colombia minus James, and then Sweden is highly anomalous.
To then possibly get to a World Cup final by adding Croatia in there is almost surreal.
There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that - it isn't a narrative, it's just an obvious reality.
It isn't England's fault though, but trying to claim it's some of agenda or narrative is pathetic.
Tunisia
Panama
Colombia minus James, and then Sweden is highly anomalous.
To then possibly get to a World Cup final by adding Croatia in there is almost surreal.
There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that - it isn't a narrative, it's just an obvious reality.
It isn't England's fault though, but trying to claim it's some of agenda or narrative is pathetic.
Have you been using the internet during the World Cup, outside of this forum? Serious question.
England fans on here making a similar point this time last week were being buried under a sea of posts decrying their unbearable arrogance.
Yes, we've had a easier draw than we might otherwise have done - that's the reason people weren't too upset at finishing second in the group and it's also the reason we've made it as far as we have.
If we'd been in the top half of the draw, we'd likely have been KO'd by Brazil on Friday, and I wouldn't have been able to spend most of Saturday in a beer garden with great booze, great food and amazing weather, watching England qualify for a World Cup Semi-Final! We're just enjoying it while it lasts.
This narrative has made me wonder about previous tournaments. There must be plenty of times Team A has won it, but maybe another couple of great teams have been pitted against each other and ultimately not had a chance to have a pop at Team A.
Also, England could easily have played "better" teams, but some of those teams didn't qualify at all or went out, beaten by the "easy" teams England played! It's a knockout competition with a (to some extent!) random draw, luck has to figure somehow!
England have got knocked out before, by teams who were considered "lesser", and the discussion was always "but England are so good on paper, why aren't our galacticos performing" "We were beaten by a team greater than the sum of it's parts who actually play as a team", "why won't these spoilt stars play like a team" etc... So here we are, a mostly young England team (except ironically Young) who actually seem to be playing as a team doing well! English fans can enjoy this, I am *
* The only caveat to that being the first world cup I remember watching was Argentina '78, and I supported Scotland there. Even had the shirt a year or so later, to fit child aged 9! Then 1982 was enough to put anyone off supporting England. Then the last few years of overpaid over-rated managers and underachieving players and the whole "Gerard or Lampard" crap that lumbered on for ages. The answer to which was Scholes. Also being of the United > England mindset as well. Though never forget the big part our Bobby played in 1966, even though he was quieter in the final cancelling out Beckenbauer
Also, England could easily have played "better" teams, but some of those teams didn't qualify at all or went out, beaten by the "easy" teams England played! It's a knockout competition with a (to some extent!) random draw, luck has to figure somehow!
England have got knocked out before, by teams who were considered "lesser", and the discussion was always "but England are so good on paper, why aren't our galacticos performing" "We were beaten by a team greater than the sum of it's parts who actually play as a team", "why won't these spoilt stars play like a team" etc... So here we are, a mostly young England team (except ironically Young) who actually seem to be playing as a team doing well! English fans can enjoy this, I am *
* The only caveat to that being the first world cup I remember watching was Argentina '78, and I supported Scotland there. Even had the shirt a year or so later, to fit child aged 9! Then 1982 was enough to put anyone off supporting England. Then the last few years of overpaid over-rated managers and underachieving players and the whole "Gerard or Lampard" crap that lumbered on for ages. The answer to which was Scholes. Also being of the United > England mindset as well. Though never forget the big part our Bobby played in 1966, even though he was quieter in the final cancelling out Beckenbauer
Because I don't care for England and Colombia are one of those nations that will always be a bit of an underdog? Because I wanted Belgium to win? How is any of that bitterness?
Your post doesn't make any sense. I don't think United supporters wanting Liverpool to lose in the CL final were bitter about anything - we just wanted to avoid a summer of gloating from their supporters.
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I don’t think we have played the in form teams. Firstly, it’s debatable if they are in form or won one knockout game against the odds. Secondly, if you (debatably) even assume we have played the in form teams, we’ve only played the in form teams on our half of the draw. Which, frankly, are lower quality to the teams on the other side.
Agree we have to beat the best. And eventually, perhaps in the final, we will play the best. But to argue we’ve played the best so far is really a stretch.
Like Ive said many times in this thread, I think this whole discussion is a waste of time cos no one cared, cares, and will care who we face. But those saying it’s been piss easy and those saying we’ve played the inform best teams are both way off the mark on either side of the spectrum.
Also, to add perspective, any side on this half of the draw can claim to have had a relatively easier run than one might expect. Including Croatia. So I don’t think this is specifically just about England.
I agree that there hasn’t been a standout team. It’s all been a-bit mental to be completely honest, it reminds of the year Porto won the CL. But to say it hasn’t been an easy route to a WC Semi is madness. But that doesn’t mean there’s a mass conspiracy against the English or some sort of agenda. It really is just fact. I don’t get why some English fans are so wound up over people pointing this out.
Yes. I haven’t paid huge attention to the ramblings of people on Twitter though. One example will do for starters.
Exactly and so you should enjoy it. Get hammered, have fun that’s what it’s all about. It’s the snowflakes getting their g-strings in a twist over people pointing out the obvious that is completely mental.
One thing is absolutely certain though, in order for England to win the world cup, we will have to beat a top-ranked team at some point in the near future - be that France, Belgium or Croatia - so any doubting of the England teams credentials after that will be illegitimate.
Nobody should dispute that. Even Croatia despite the recent drop in performance are a top international side.
Nobody is saying otherwise.
Fair enough!
European football has changed in last decade. Countries supposedly minnows are now producing class players. The wide gap which existed earlier between elite teams and rest is much narrow now. German team looks ordinary because other teams were better. Most of us are still nostalgic of 80s, 90s but the truth is rest of the countries have caught up or catching up fast. Heck, Italy and Netherlands did not qualify this time! Rest now too have good infrastructure, coaching has improved and their academies are producing good technical players. Point is, do not be prejudiced just because you don't see so called elite teams in world cup any more.
World cup qualification is there for a reason and I would not write off any European team who survived brutal qualification and reached the finals.
Show respect to the teams. England do not have easy route. There were supposed to be germany and argentina in the same half. They ain't because better teams beat them and England are beating them.
World cup qualification is there for a reason and I would not write off any European team who survived brutal qualification and reached the finals.
Show respect to the teams. England do not have easy route. There were supposed to be germany and argentina in the same half. They ain't because better teams beat them and England are beating them.
I certainly see why you're exasperated, there is no denying what a great opportunity England have been handed by the luck of the draw and Germany and Spain's failure.
The reason I would stop short of saying easy or piss easy or whatever else is because there has historically been no such thing for England. We contrive to make mountains out of relative molehills too often (Iceland in '16, Algeria '10 which for my money was the worst competitive England game I've ever seen) to treat any run of games as easy. Hedges such as 'easier, not easy' may sound mealy-mouthed but what else are perennial underachievers meant to say?
I might have to turn the volume down during EPL matches if England win, otherwise I'l have to bear the 'the best national team in the world' nonsense from the commentators
Will Baddiel and Skinner release a new song if England win?
Germany beat them
Yeah I am not understanding the "Sweden knocked out Germany" comments. Germany beat Sweden so it doesnt make sense to say that. Mexico and South Korea knocked out Germany, Sweden just luckily benefitted from that.
Yes.
If the champions of Austria finished above the champions of Spain and Germany in the group stage, then probably the latter. But it depends on the results.
I think that England have benefitted from something else. The humiliating defeat by Iceland in the last world cup and it's aftermath.
For years England relied on playing names rather than players in form or who have the actual talents to do a job in International football. We have used talismanic "big tall strikers" that rip up the premier league but get whistled and give away a foul every time they jump in International football. So when Iceland humiliated England it showed us the growing trend in international football. That well drilled and motivated teams from "lesser" footballing nations can create a shock when playing the bigger teams, unless the bigger teams are on top of their game.
Look at who has left early this time, Germany, Spain, Argentina, Portugal, Brazil - and those who did not even qualify, Italy, Netherlands. All of them have had their issues with aging squads, big name players underperforming, Managers making poor decisions to cram in certain talent. England has been there done that, and would have carried on doing the same under Allardyce.
So the other lucky factor is that the farcical loss to Iceland and the poor recruitment that followed, meant that when big Sam slipped up there was a willingness to try something new.
I don't think you can argue that England have not had an easier run to the Semi final than you would have ever anticipated. However they have managed to do a few things so far that they have not been able to do in tournaments for decades like....
Pick players and a system suited to international football
Hold onto the ball and retain possession.
Play the ball out from the back
React positively to a setback eg Colombia's late equalizer
Not get frustrated after 60 minutes and start lumping high balls into the box
Actually practice penalties
Show mental resilience in a penalty shootout
Win, lose or draw on Wednesday England have made great progress that hopefully can continue whatever the outcome.
For years England relied on playing names rather than players in form or who have the actual talents to do a job in International football. We have used talismanic "big tall strikers" that rip up the premier league but get whistled and give away a foul every time they jump in International football. So when Iceland humiliated England it showed us the growing trend in international football. That well drilled and motivated teams from "lesser" footballing nations can create a shock when playing the bigger teams, unless the bigger teams are on top of their game.
Look at who has left early this time, Germany, Spain, Argentina, Portugal, Brazil - and those who did not even qualify, Italy, Netherlands. All of them have had their issues with aging squads, big name players underperforming, Managers making poor decisions to cram in certain talent. England has been there done that, and would have carried on doing the same under Allardyce.
So the other lucky factor is that the farcical loss to Iceland and the poor recruitment that followed, meant that when big Sam slipped up there was a willingness to try something new.
I don't think you can argue that England have not had an easier run to the Semi final than you would have ever anticipated. However they have managed to do a few things so far that they have not been able to do in tournaments for decades like....
Pick players and a system suited to international football
Hold onto the ball and retain possession.
Play the ball out from the back
React positively to a setback eg Colombia's late equalizer
Not get frustrated after 60 minutes and start lumping high balls into the box
Actually practice penalties
Show mental resilience in a penalty shootout
Win, lose or draw on Wednesday England have made great progress that hopefully can continue whatever the outcome.
Can't really argue with any of that. People will bristle at the word 'easy' being thrown around - especially at this stage of such a big competition - but this is the draw we were all praying for deep down!