I think we will scrape top four this season whilst boring the pants off of everyone who watches our matches. We'll then spend another £150m-£200m this summer, and we'll be a bit better next season but still worse than Chelsea or City and still boring to watch.
The future under Van Gaal - lay your chips
- Thread starter Pexbo
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Well, we need someone who isn't a coward then and will gladly take a risk. Being Manchester United manager should be exactly about that, Guardiola was under massive pressure at Barcelona in his first season and they played very offensively in a bold manner that wasn't really popular before, this is what made him successful. Mourinho is your safe option if you want results with little risk but we obviously didn't want him.
I don't think top managers will really come to a job and fear getting sacked. It won't be on their minds. If anything keeping Moyes after last season would have sent a worse message ('don't worry, we'll keep you anyway').
I think LVG will build a killer team for the future, but I don't think we'll see any trohpies under him. 3 seasons is the longest he's stayed at any club and now that he is old I just can't see him staying here for a long time. I think the man who comes in after LVG will bear the fruits of his labour.
The reason I don't think we'll see any trophies under LVG is because people are expecting City and Chelsea to sit on their arses whist we sign this player and that player. We are still a long way off their squads and it looks like the players are struggling with LVG's system. I reckon at least another season until we're challenging for anything.
The reason I don't think we'll see any trophies under LVG is because people are expecting City and Chelsea to sit on their arses whist we sign this player and that player. We are still a long way off their squads and it looks like the players are struggling with LVG's system. I reckon at least another season until we're challenging for anything.
Meh. The point stands. He didn't get a full season. Which is very unusual, no?
He essentially did though. It was impossible for him to finish in an acceptable position, the Everton loss made it numerically impossible.
I'm a bit disappointed by him of late. His tactical moves have been awkward for the team, and I really expected him to be a manager who "frees" players, which is the opposite of what is happening now. Caution seems to be what we're going for and it's not really what I was expecting at all.
I'm expecting the football to be pretty dull this season given he's basically going to stick to the 352 and playing players in strange and unfamiliar positions.
Oh well, what can you do. I'm just hoping over time he proves to be a manager who can get such a great set of attackers to play great attacking football.
I'm expecting the football to be pretty dull this season given he's basically going to stick to the 352 and playing players in strange and unfamiliar positions.
Oh well, what can you do. I'm just hoping over time he proves to be a manager who can get such a great set of attackers to play great attacking football.
Champions league trophy in 3 years 
He's going to get sacked if he sticks with the current formation and it would be well deserved. And he needs to change his philosophy because the current one seems to involve playing as many players playing out of position as possible.
I have been a bit surprised by LVG so far. When he joined the club he looked absolutely perfect in terms of his style and personality, and he/Woody then backed that up with a strong summer in the transfer market.
However I am surprised and rather disappointed by the lack of quality football we have played, and also by what I perceive to be cowardice on LVGs part with regard to team selection.
Call it anything you like, transition, unbalanced team (this is LVGs fault from the summer anyway), not trusting defenders - with the players he has at his disposal, LVG should have these guys playing some good stuff. His insistence to play two strikers has hindered our play (and it was LVGs decision to bring in Falcao, which arguably necessitates playing two up front), and the way we seem to play 5 defenders and 5 attackers it reminds me of the Fergie days - except then it was because we had no competent midfielders, now we do, but they are benched.
However I am surprised and rather disappointed by the lack of quality football we have played, and also by what I perceive to be cowardice on LVGs part with regard to team selection.
Call it anything you like, transition, unbalanced team (this is LVGs fault from the summer anyway), not trusting defenders - with the players he has at his disposal, LVG should have these guys playing some good stuff. His insistence to play two strikers has hindered our play (and it was LVGs decision to bring in Falcao, which arguably necessitates playing two up front), and the way we seem to play 5 defenders and 5 attackers it reminds me of the Fergie days - except then it was because we had no competent midfielders, now we do, but they are benched.
I don't know if he will be sacked but boring everyone to death after spending 150 million shouldn't be considered acceptable IMO. What's the point of spending so much if you're going to be so cautious and play dire football?
Yes, especially the board accused him of playing the players in the wrong positions. (Hoeness stated this publicly some years after the contract termination.) So once he didn't deliver the expected resultes he was sacked. Otherwise he would have stayed longer because in general he was a good fit for Bayern.
Might fluke a top 4 this season and in the longer term (i.e. it meaning he sticks around for another summer) I'm not convinced at all whether that would be a good thing.
Too many stupid decisions, a systemthat doesn't work and incredibly dull football. No sign or even hint of improvement on any of these fronts.
Excuses always made by people about injuries or the squad not being strong enough, but it's rendered irrelevant by the fact he can't even use the players he has available correctly...not even the ones that HE chose to buy.
Mourinho esque style of acting like a knob in press conferences/interviews and then people reacting as if it's really cool, rather than just playground stupidity.
Too many stupid decisions, a systemthat doesn't work and incredibly dull football. No sign or even hint of improvement on any of these fronts.
Excuses always made by people about injuries or the squad not being strong enough, but it's rendered irrelevant by the fact he can't even use the players he has available correctly...not even the ones that HE chose to buy.
Mourinho esque style of acting like a knob in press conferences/interviews and then people reacting as if it's really cool, rather than just playground stupidity.
not at all.
AvB, Rafael Benitez at inter, Klinsmann at Bayern, Hodgson at Liverpool, LvG (the second time at Barca), the managers at Real after quieroz till pellegrini. (and most of them didn't do as badly as moyes)
actually we were more patient than the others, and there is no way he would have survived so long anywhere else.
We'll (somehow) scrape a top 4 finish, spend £200m on defenders and still play 352 next season. And then get knocked out of the CL qualifers.
Your optimism just blew me over.
I've found this backlash a bit weird tbh.
LVG arrived to a club with a long list of problems to sort out and a squad with several years of significant under-investment to do it with. One by one he's ticked off some of the problems on the list and got us to a position where we're well in with a chance of finishing 3rd or 4th.
He's bought in 5 new players, all of whom have been an improvement on what we had. He also brought in a loanee, who hasn't really worked out, but with bringing him in on loan (and considering his goalscoring record in the past) it was hardly a wild gamble.
Of the players he got rid of, can't say any of them have proven him wrong so far.
We're still stuck with some players we'd like to upgrade, but man, we got rid of 10 and brought in 6. That's a pretty epic changeover. Sure we could have upgraded Jones, Evans, Rafael, Valencia, Young & Fletcher. But is it realistic to get rid of 15+ players and bring in 10 to 15 new ones? At what cost? That would be crazy. These things take a couple of seasons.
The players repect the manager, seem committed & we seem to have a happy camp. We've had none of that talk we had last year about key players unhappy, dressing room fall outs, all that nonsense. And just as importantly the manager seems at home in a club the size of ours, rather than looking intimidated by the job.
He started badly in the first 5 games, but then stabilised. Since losing to Leicester we've won 10, drawn 5, lost 2. That kind of form is perfectly acceptable for this season. Indeed when you look at our results, only the Southampton and Villa games jump out as missed opportunities during that run. I totally understand that after a run of wins its unnerving when you then lose, particularly when you see Liverpool and Arsenal on the up. But its not like our form has gone out of the window. I dont see a team low on confidence all of a sudden.
He's started to address the problem with an inability to keep possession that we've all moaned about at times over the years. Indeed the style of football he's going for should be a lot more longlasting than what we saw under Fergie, because it doesn't need Fergie to make it work.
The football has been a bit dull at times, no doubt. Even then people have over-egged it, we've also played some fine football. But ignoring that, LVG knows how crucial it is it to get winning. Crucial to finish top 4, but also crucial to get into the habit of winning. Nothing delivers good football like high confidence, and nothing breeds confidence like winning. This is a team that had forgotten how to win under adversity last season.
Sure there's a way to go - we need more commitment to attack, we need to play the ball out from the back without needing 5+ defensive players, we need pace up front, we need a straight upgrade in quality in defensive areas and we need to juggle the squad around to end up with more round pegs in round holes.
But its only been six months. Is that really so little to have achieved in that time that people are beginning to judge him as a failure? Are we really saying that he should have sorted every single problem in the club out in that time? Or are we saying that wide open football is so important that it alone outweighs every other thing he's done right?
I'm quite content with how its gone so far. Lots more work to do, but that's to be expected. And if we go backwards, then of course we're stuffed. But when is that ever not the case?
LVG arrived to a club with a long list of problems to sort out and a squad with several years of significant under-investment to do it with. One by one he's ticked off some of the problems on the list and got us to a position where we're well in with a chance of finishing 3rd or 4th.
He's bought in 5 new players, all of whom have been an improvement on what we had. He also brought in a loanee, who hasn't really worked out, but with bringing him in on loan (and considering his goalscoring record in the past) it was hardly a wild gamble.
Of the players he got rid of, can't say any of them have proven him wrong so far.
We're still stuck with some players we'd like to upgrade, but man, we got rid of 10 and brought in 6. That's a pretty epic changeover. Sure we could have upgraded Jones, Evans, Rafael, Valencia, Young & Fletcher. But is it realistic to get rid of 15+ players and bring in 10 to 15 new ones? At what cost? That would be crazy. These things take a couple of seasons.
The players repect the manager, seem committed & we seem to have a happy camp. We've had none of that talk we had last year about key players unhappy, dressing room fall outs, all that nonsense. And just as importantly the manager seems at home in a club the size of ours, rather than looking intimidated by the job.
He started badly in the first 5 games, but then stabilised. Since losing to Leicester we've won 10, drawn 5, lost 2. That kind of form is perfectly acceptable for this season. Indeed when you look at our results, only the Southampton and Villa games jump out as missed opportunities during that run. I totally understand that after a run of wins its unnerving when you then lose, particularly when you see Liverpool and Arsenal on the up. But its not like our form has gone out of the window. I dont see a team low on confidence all of a sudden.
He's started to address the problem with an inability to keep possession that we've all moaned about at times over the years. Indeed the style of football he's going for should be a lot more longlasting than what we saw under Fergie, because it doesn't need Fergie to make it work.
The football has been a bit dull at times, no doubt. Even then people have over-egged it, we've also played some fine football. But ignoring that, LVG knows how crucial it is it to get winning. Crucial to finish top 4, but also crucial to get into the habit of winning. Nothing delivers good football like high confidence, and nothing breeds confidence like winning. This is a team that had forgotten how to win under adversity last season.
Sure there's a way to go - we need more commitment to attack, we need to play the ball out from the back without needing 5+ defensive players, we need pace up front, we need a straight upgrade in quality in defensive areas and we need to juggle the squad around to end up with more round pegs in round holes.
But its only been six months. Is that really so little to have achieved in that time that people are beginning to judge him as a failure? Are we really saying that he should have sorted every single problem in the club out in that time? Or are we saying that wide open football is so important that it alone outweighs every other thing he's done right?
I'm quite content with how its gone so far. Lots more work to do, but that's to be expected. And if we go backwards, then of course we're stuffed. But when is that ever not the case?
This is the problem for most people though. Yes we have a good defensive record - arguably because of De Gea. Take out many of his wonder saves and we lose those games. Our performances in the 3-5-2 of late have been tragic, and if not for changing the system at QPR would have ended up ANOTHER draw. Draws do not win you titles or get you high in the table. You mention the "leicester and west ham situation". Yes Leicester was a poor collapse because of poor defending in Evans and Blackett. West ham was because of the Rooney red card.
I guarantee you now if our attacking form doesn't improve and we stick to 3-5-2 in games even when it's not working, we will not get top 4 because of it.
If it was just a case of dire organised football and squeezing out points, then I'd be fine. But it's not even that. We've been flat out shit in many games and have had to rely on luck to see us through. The most frustrating thing about it is that we went through a period when we actually played some nice stuff but Van Gaal for some reason decided he no longer liked playing players in the rightful positions.
Based on what I've seen so far, I don't believe LVG is going to be a success at United in terms of winning titles or CL. The reasons are part formation and part his faith in big names who, if they aren't too old already, will be in the near future. At this point in time I can't see our attack being title winning quality under LVG as I don't see him abandoning enough of the current "fixed line-up" attackers to give us a reasonable chance of success. I would like his chances a lot more if Januzaj and Wilson were regular starters rather than say RVP and Mata; at least you could reasonably expect them to improve. It is just possible that Falcao will come good over the next few months, in which case I would be more optimistic.
- He will purchase the players that he thinks will balance the team.
- He will use a system that he likes, 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1
- Our defense will still be shaky and maybe De Gea less decisive.
- Serious questions will be asked about his abilities.
We will get Wingers and Better Center Backs,
The 4-3-3 all the way to a treble.
The 4-3-3 all the way to a treble.
i disagree with your post. especially the bits in bold.
will try to come back and explain why
Agreed
I can honestly see season ticket holders starting to turn on him if we continue with this negative, boring, anti-football formation. I’m going to be truthfully honest here and say we are one off, if not the most boring team to watch this season, it’s painful at times and I’ve found myself losing interest in the games we play.
What is he trying to prove by his defensive football? Is he afraid of taking a risk? Where is the football we were playing in pre-season? Why is he playing Rooney as a centre mid and Di Maria as a forward? Why isn’t Herrera playing? Why are we playing with 6 defensive outfield players? Why drop Falcao in and put two CB’s on the subs bench? He makes some strange decisions.
He hasn’t got a clue what our best team is 6 months into the job, and that concerns me more than anything. It was so obvious against QPR that we needed to switch the positions of Di Maria and Rooney, it was obvious from the first minute but he stuck to his guns and refused to change things up. The only reason we went to 4 at the back against QPR was due to the injury to Evans.
I can understand why he’s playing defensive football given our issues at the back but we have the potential to have a fantastic frontline, one that would put the fear of God into any team but he’s sacrificing that to focus on our weakness instead of playing to our strength.
I know it may not sound like it but I still trust the man, he’s just making it difficult for me to continue to do so.
This is how I’m seeing our football at the moment
What is he trying to prove by his defensive football? Is he afraid of taking a risk? Where is the football we were playing in pre-season? Why is he playing Rooney as a centre mid and Di Maria as a forward? Why isn’t Herrera playing? Why are we playing with 6 defensive outfield players? Why drop Falcao in and put two CB’s on the subs bench? He makes some strange decisions.
He hasn’t got a clue what our best team is 6 months into the job, and that concerns me more than anything. It was so obvious against QPR that we needed to switch the positions of Di Maria and Rooney, it was obvious from the first minute but he stuck to his guns and refused to change things up. The only reason we went to 4 at the back against QPR was due to the injury to Evans.
I can understand why he’s playing defensive football given our issues at the back but we have the potential to have a fantastic frontline, one that would put the fear of God into any team but he’s sacrificing that to focus on our weakness instead of playing to our strength.
I know it may not sound like it but I still trust the man, he’s just making it difficult for me to continue to do so.
This is how I’m seeing our football at the moment
I like LVG and think he has the right attitude, mentality and experience to lead us to success. However one recurring theme in his career is clubs and fans getting tired of his stubborn and wacky ways. There is only so much of this 3-5-2 bollocks I can take. It's not a formation I think works well for us and I don't think it's particularly suited to the Premier League. I would also like to see Januzaj getting more time. I know he hasn't been great this season but he's been pretty much frozen out.
That's all very fair and reasonable but what are your thoughts on these stats in the context of his steadfast insistence that playing a back four makes us far too vulnerable?
Granted, it's a minor issue in the grand scheme of thinks but suggest a disconnect between what he is seeing and what is actually happening on the pitch that doesn't reflect well on him IMO. Which is particularly worrying when you consider his track record of falling out with the board (and fans) in most of his previous clubs, when they also saw things differently to the way he was seeing them.
I'd go with this too. We might challenge for the title but I don't see us winning it.
Scolari at Chelsea too. Does Hodgson at Liverpool count? Benitez at Inter.
Think you'll get top 4 fairly comfortably, then repeat it next year. Might get to a stage where it needs a new man to finish the job off and win those titles again.
Could we not look more vulnerable in one system without it automatically showing up in the stats? In the same way we could probably look more fluid in attack without it necessarily showing up as shots on target.
The thing is, the best team in terms of quality has the best chance of winning the league. But even then you need a litte luck, and you need even more luck with the Chamions League.
So what I expect is, after the summer window, we have a squad comparable in quality and balance to Chelsea, City and also Arsenal (who've been doing great transfers). Two seasons where four clubs have exactly similar teams in terms of quality, then you still don't have that big a chance of winning the league.
Even if Van Gaal does everything 100% 'right' it will still depend on luck, whether it's luck with injuries of your best players, luck with results in big games, luck with results in general. So I have to agree with you, winning something other than the cup is going to be very difficult - but that also goes for Chelsea, City, Arsenal.
I am convinced that Van Gaal will get it 100% right after the summer window though, and that's the best you can hope for.
Yeah, I wouldn't see it as a disappointment on Van Gaal's part if he does fail to win the league with us as it's incredibly hard to do as you say.
I think it will take more than the summer transfer window for us to have the squad Van Gaal wants, we still have quite a few issues to solve and quite a few players that could be gotten rid of. We could do with two quality centre backs, a right back that can stay fit consistently, cover for left back, a centre midfielder and a pacy winger or wide forward, depending on what formation he wants us to play. That's a lot to get in in one or two windows. I think it could actually take until the start of his third season for us to really see the squad that Van Gaal wants here.
This could very well be true. But I really can't stand the idea of us, Manchester fecking United, having had 4 transfer windows since SAF left and failing to assemble a squad that's on par with the best 4 teams in the world. While spending over 200 million. That would be the ultimate horror show.
We're something like £20m over budget.
Over 200 million spent since Fergie left and the team is actually worse off.
Still failing to get my head around that.
At a guess LVG won't see out his contract, Giggs may take over towards the end of the reign, before we go all out for Pep.
Could be wrong though.
Still failing to get my head around that.
At a guess LVG won't see out his contract, Giggs may take over towards the end of the reign, before we go all out for Pep.
Could be wrong though.
Love LVG but dislike the 352
Yeah you're right. But Welbeck made us some money, and players like Fellani and a lot of others have some resale value. The 200+ million already spent is sickening though.
But our spendings compared to City and Chelsea over the last 5 years, if I'm not mistaken we've spent less than they have (I hope)? If that's true, they're ahead of us because they spent more, which is acceptable.
With @Pexbo all the way on this. The argument against Van Gaal reminds me of a load of spoilt kids screaming until they are sick for some kind of attention.