The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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Case closed.
I hate barrier time 
Last season's 2nd place was a good achievement (I guess) but a lot depends on the context.
We finished 2nd, yet we weren't challenging for the title. We went full throttle in the league, I think in order to mask that shameful exit to Sevilla in CL.
Liverpool had their eyes set on CL, they played just enough in the league to finish inside top 4, not bothered by the exact spot as long as it's inside the top 4.
Chelsea were in a huge turmoil, manager falling out with everyone and their dog. Yet still they did beat us in FA Cup final.
Arsenal players gave up the moment it was revealed that AW will be leaving.
You can only really say Spurs underperformed, but then again you can attribute that to them playing on the Wembley.
And yeah, we looked like shiit hence why them pundits were touting us as "the worst looking team (play wise) to have finished 2nd".
We finished 2nd, yet we weren't challenging for the title. We went full throttle in the league, I think in order to mask that shameful exit to Sevilla in CL.
Liverpool had their eyes set on CL, they played just enough in the league to finish inside top 4, not bothered by the exact spot as long as it's inside the top 4.
Chelsea were in a huge turmoil, manager falling out with everyone and their dog. Yet still they did beat us in FA Cup final.
Arsenal players gave up the moment it was revealed that AW will be leaving.
You can only really say Spurs underperformed, but then again you can attribute that to them playing on the Wembley.
And yeah, we looked like shiit hence why them pundits were touting us as "the worst looking team (play wise) to have finished 2nd".
When you come to think of it, even the first season wasn't all that good tbh.
We didn't get into CL for being one of the 4 best teams in the league, but by barely scraping wins for a 2nd tier European trophy against a much, much weaker opposition.
We didn't get into CL for being one of the 4 best teams in the league, but by barely scraping wins for a 2nd tier European trophy against a much, much weaker opposition.
I was listening to the totally football podcast and one of the guests described the effect of Mourhinos dour and negative demeanour, attitude and tactics were akin to being chased by an erupting volcano, you may be able to outrun it for a while but the the non stop lava and poisonous gases will get you in the end. A good analogy and how it’s kind of felt for me during his tenure
I want him gone simply because two and a half years is perfectly enough to develop your game and progress. There is no progress, same sh't day and night. One marginally better game followed by a football game that causes many of our fellow fans to loose their minds and in brink of a suicide. I cant remember a game where we have dominated, we've been better yes but really dominated no. I enjoy city games more than ours now (football wise), and that's something I cant forgive myself.
It's more like a compost heap driving a bus.
I checked that:
1:1 away + 1:0 at home vs. Rostow
1:1 away + 2:1 after extra time vs. Anderlecht (Quarters)
0:1 away + 1:1 vs Vigo (Semis)
2:0 vs Ajax (who were barely advancing vs Lyon Schalke and Kopenhagen)
Overall advancing by 1 goal vs Rostow and Vigo and 1 goal in extra time vs Anderlecht. That's not convincing at all especially considering Pogba had cost more than Rostow + Anderlecht squad combined.
I'd say it simply so: ManUtd under Mourinho despite winning titles doesn't play like a Champion.
Not on whoscored, I checked several matches to be sure. You can check yourself by going into chalkboard.
People acted like Spurs and Liverpool were better than us. We were ahead of both the entire season. Liverpool couldn't beat us. We beat every team in the league. People bash Lukaku now but he was missing for the FA Cup final and it was costly. Liverpool were in danger of falling out of the top 4 until the last game of the season. Wembley had nothing to do with Spurs form as they adapted to it not too long into the season.
How is that for context?
Chalkboard on whoscored or different site?
Not saying De Gea don't kick the ball long as he does it more often that not, just saying how long ball is measure in whoscored site which doesn't make sense as a good pass to fullback is also a long pass according to them.
I desperately want him to have a revelation and sort things out, sort of a manager version Ebenezer Scrooge, i also want to win the lottery.
Not sure which is more likely to happen.
We're well into his third season and he hasn't established anything even resembling a playing style. While other teams are progressing by playing expansive football focusing on passing the ball quickly and having a lot of movement, we're playing some of the slowest football i've seen, very little movement and to top it off we're still useless in defense.
I'm not sure how many times i've seen movement stop completely around the box because the idea is to get the ball wide and cross it in, players are then stuck just waiting for the cross, it's bizarre, or the amount of through balls we're trying by lofting it from our own half.
I want him to succeed here, but i just can't see it happening. Not to mention that he's completely unable to rotate a squad. Fergie had it spot on in 06/07, when the result or team dictates it, get players off and bring fresh legs on because it's a long season. Mourinho plays his key players for the full 90 mins, no matter how they perform, certain players are key to his strategy and they should play no matter what. The end result is that they play far too much football and if they pick up an injury there's no one that can go in and easily replace them. Even though we didn't have the same quality coming off the bench under Fergie, the players knew exactly what was expected to them and the role they were to play.
Instead of just resting Matic here and there, trying different combinations to give him as much rest as possible, he's allowed to consistently perform poorly to the detriment of the team and it will last for an extensive period until Mourinho feels he's had enough chances and he'll more or less be out of the team for good. Sort of what he did with Sanchez, first choice without doubt no matter the performances for an extensive period, then you're out and you'll struggle to get back in. I just don't understand the concept.
Not sure which is more likely to happen.
We're well into his third season and he hasn't established anything even resembling a playing style. While other teams are progressing by playing expansive football focusing on passing the ball quickly and having a lot of movement, we're playing some of the slowest football i've seen, very little movement and to top it off we're still useless in defense.
I'm not sure how many times i've seen movement stop completely around the box because the idea is to get the ball wide and cross it in, players are then stuck just waiting for the cross, it's bizarre, or the amount of through balls we're trying by lofting it from our own half.
I want him to succeed here, but i just can't see it happening. Not to mention that he's completely unable to rotate a squad. Fergie had it spot on in 06/07, when the result or team dictates it, get players off and bring fresh legs on because it's a long season. Mourinho plays his key players for the full 90 mins, no matter how they perform, certain players are key to his strategy and they should play no matter what. The end result is that they play far too much football and if they pick up an injury there's no one that can go in and easily replace them. Even though we didn't have the same quality coming off the bench under Fergie, the players knew exactly what was expected to them and the role they were to play.
Instead of just resting Matic here and there, trying different combinations to give him as much rest as possible, he's allowed to consistently perform poorly to the detriment of the team and it will last for an extensive period until Mourinho feels he's had enough chances and he'll more or less be out of the team for good. Sort of what he did with Sanchez, first choice without doubt no matter the performances for an extensive period, then you're out and you'll struggle to get back in. I just don't understand the concept.
It's like waiting for Mourinho to be put out his misery (and the fans too!)
Getting a new manager would give the club the new manager bounce meaning we could still get top 4.. if we carry on down the same path nothing will change, and we will finish outside the top 4. A proactive board would've pulled the trigger ages ago.. nothing to be gained by pursuing with this fraud of a manager.. just costing the club more money for less results as his reputation means he is required to be the best paid manager in the League.. but reputation won't get us top 4.
Mourinho has done nothing to deserve this much faith, not at this club. That's what he should be judged on.. not what he did at Chelsea 14/15 years ago.
It's like the board are desperate for Mourinho to succeed based on some weird obsession with his past record at other clubs and big reputation that he was destined for this job or something.. so giving him more time than Average Joe.
Atleast The Lowry Hotel is coining it in while he isn't packing his bags and getting the hell out of Manc, I suppose.
Getting a new manager would give the club the new manager bounce meaning we could still get top 4.. if we carry on down the same path nothing will change, and we will finish outside the top 4. A proactive board would've pulled the trigger ages ago.. nothing to be gained by pursuing with this fraud of a manager.. just costing the club more money for less results as his reputation means he is required to be the best paid manager in the League.. but reputation won't get us top 4.
Mourinho has done nothing to deserve this much faith, not at this club. That's what he should be judged on.. not what he did at Chelsea 14/15 years ago.
It's like the board are desperate for Mourinho to succeed based on some weird obsession with his past record at other clubs and big reputation that he was destined for this job or something.. so giving him more time than Average Joe.
Atleast The Lowry Hotel is coining it in while he isn't packing his bags and getting the hell out of Manc, I suppose.
Chalkboard on whoscored. I checked the stats because I wanted to do more in depth by counting the direction for each long pass but realised quickly it was way too much work. De Gea in the last 5 games had 100+ long passes.
As bad as those wanting a second EU referendum. Stick to your vote and see what happens first FFS !
They don't do it like Squawka, shame as it was great site.
Just to get better context I checked his last few games.
Vs Young boys home - 24 passes and 9 long passes but 7 of those long passes were ground passes and only 2 were chipped.
Vs Crystal Palace - 24 passes, 9 long passes and all 9 of them were ground passes
Vs City - 28 passes, 19 long passes and 17 of them were ground passes.
Vs Juventus - 24 passes, 21 long passes and 18 of them were ground passes
Vs Bournemouth - 28 passes, 23 long passes and 22 of them were ground passes.
Vs Everton - 34 passes, 24 long passes and 22 of them were ground passes.
So yeah, lot of long passes but without doing calculation it looks like more than 90% of them are ground passes which means more likely it's passed to Fullback or winger.
It was costly because we had no plan B. For the period with Lukaky out injured we stuck Rashford up top without changing strategy, it's not like anyone expected that to be a success. We have different types of strikers, the key is to manage the squad and make sure that if your first choice is injured you have an alternative that knows what's expected and that the team can change style to suit the other strikers. Sticking your striker turned left/right winger back as a striker and pretending he's an an entirely different player is usually not going to help.
Ref Tottenham and Liverpool: Fair enough, we can isolate them and look at an individual season and miss the entire point that everyone is trying to make.
It's all about progress, building towards something. Progress rarely happens instantly. Our second place last season was a one off, bit like Everton finishing 4th. Tottenham, having a limited budget both in terms of wages and transfer fees, will struggle to compete over time. Liverpool, who have splashed some serious cash on both transfer fees and wages are expected to compete for trophies. They are undefeated in their last 27 league games at home, it would surprise me if they aren't mounting a title challenge this season, given the way they are performing i expect them to compete with City. Doubt they will win, but they will come a lot closer than we were last season.
Well if we wanted real progress we needed to add width and defenders that can help build up. Doesn't totally excuse our poor start but I dont get what people really expected. We needed to add new dimensions to the team through recruitment and it didn't really happen. Anyway, lets hope Dalot has a good game tomorrow.
90 minutes away from it being a pretty shite season.
Go back to the threads during the first season. Plenty of us weren’t happy with what was going on. I personally was pretty discouraged from about 3 months in and I could see absolutely no patterns in our play (bar bits of magic from Zlatan).
But, but, but he wasn't backed! Mourinho is the only manager who can spend mega bucks and still cry pauper and have fans lap it up. We have overall been pretty average in his tenure. We play a very tepid brand of football where I think the players aren't fully free and that is why you can see us look so unsure until it's desperate times and we have to go gung ho. We need to move on from him as soon as possible and get the feel good factor back at the club.
Was listening to the football social on XS manchester last night, and the discussion went to who would win - LvGs United or Jose's United.. It was pretty much agreed that LvG did not have the luxuries within his squad that Jose has, yet all agreed that LvGs united would still win. Says it all really.
LvGs football was ancient and painful to watch, but it had a bit of a structure, where you could see what he kind of was attempting. It was just brutal.
The only time i can really identify Jose's plan is when Fellaini comes on and we play hoofball
LvGs football was ancient and painful to watch, but it had a bit of a structure, where you could see what he kind of was attempting. It was just brutal.
The only time i can really identify Jose's plan is when Fellaini comes on and we play hoofball
There's no system in place to ensure progress, and that's not about transfer spending it's about the manager. Why has Lukaku gone backwards, Pogba, why do we look worse off than we did last season, why isn't there a clear pattern in what we're trying to achieve. Lack of improvement in one area can explain the team not reaching new heights, not falling to new lows.
Agreed. LVG had a great track record with Ajax and Bayern too, didn't mean he was right for us.
Well when the manager asks for proper wingers and defenders to help build up and doesn't get it you lose big dimensions to your team....
This 100%.. I went mental when he came out with that nonsense that time about not having Fellaini on the bench, therefore did not have any options to bring on. Whilst on the bench sat £50M FRED & Herrera. And 19M Dalot, 30M Bailly, and Andreas Pereiria not even in the squad!
Yet none of that challenges anything I've said, does it?
Now you're bs-ing. Considering Lukaku's track record against big teams, it's still debatable whether him missing that game was a blow or a blessing in disguise.
In case you didn't get it, it was my point exactly, they were more focused to keep their players ready and avoid potential injuries for the sake of advancing in CL.
I mean you can keep telling to yourself that playing on Wembley (pitch is both wider and longer) had nothing to do with Spurs underperforming, but that's not the case.
Us beating every other team in the league is a pretty good achievement, but it won't change the fact we looked absolutely diabolical, playing some absolutely soul crushing football whilst doing so.
I'm curious would have our 2nd spot and a crack at Chelsea in FA Cup final, for a 4th place finish and a chance at Madrid in CL final?
Yeah the wheels were already coming off last season weren't we. We started off winning all those games 4-0 but playing very direct, pragmatic football which was obviously miles behind City's. The longer the season went on, the worse we looked.
I'd imagine that, if you excluded the first 10 games (so excluded our amazing start), we'd have been hanging on for fourth spot in the final table. Obviously those first 10 games are just as valid as the rest of the season but we clearly went into decline afterwards. It's a bit reminiscent of the 85/86 season, when United won all their first 10 games and ended up hanging on to fourth spot.
Even in May, people were demanding Mourinho leave and predicting the nightmare we'd endure this season. Don't think any of us expected it'd be this bad though.
He literally scored against Chelsea last year and I think he even won man of the match. Yes we did miss Lukaku against Chelsea and only bullshit revisionists will try to deny it.
We were better than every other team apart from City. Spurs were just fine at Wembley and we were ahead of Liverpool the entire season so the bollocks about them resting players doesn’t run.
Which proper wingers did he ask for during the summer ? You don't lose big dimensions, you don't regress badly, at worst you should be stuck at status quo
I think LVG with this team would be doing better than Jose. Which is so sad on many levels.
I agree - we have a much better midfield than the one he left.
May I ask you:-
Do you want Jose to be given more time as Man Utd manager and what do you think he will bring to us if given a huge transfer budget in January/summer? Considering he's been here nearly 3 seasons now.
Yeah I remember games being really close against Rostov and Celta. Not to mention we finished 2nd in the group behind Fenerbahce.
Yeah I remember. Mourinho was never the right manager for us, but still even now there are some refusing to accept that .
I think we need to sign defenders and wingers regardless of the manager. I do not think any other manager does much better with this side. Granted, we should have more points than we do this season, we shouldnt be drawing to Palace for example. When you lack width and defenders which are comfortable on the ball it gets very difficult to build and link play. It does heavily impact the team as a whole.
When we collect 81 points, finish 2nd and reach a domestic cup final, the manager should be backed with players that can help the team add more dimensions. That’s clearly width and build up.
Well the ones we know about are Willian and Perisic. He wanted fullbacks as well. We badly need width, everyone can see it. Obviously he wanted defenders as well and wants better build up from deeper areas. Something both Willian and Perisic can help with as well.
Agreed but LVG would still be purchasing duds instead of having this team.
Every single time some big game was approaching, you just knew it's bus parking time. Last season, us parking the bus after a flying start (4:0 games like you mentioned) against Liverpool was very much humiliating. We went there with Stoke City mentality.
Also those 4:0 games, tbf were the games which were pretty open with us being ahead 1:0 up until last 10-15 minutes where we would make them pay on the counter.
So we wanted Perisic this august ? Which fullback did he want ? Where's the credible info to back up any of this. Apart from the centre back there's nothing about attacking players, we even have Mourinho himself stating there were no need for more attacking players as long as no one leaves.
Just checked for you:
Note - All but 4 of these passes reach very close to or over the half way line.
Crystal Palace:
Left of pitch - 1 Long Pass
Middle of pitch - 5 Long Passes
Right of pitch - 3 Long Passes
Total - 9
City:
Left - 3
Middle - 8
Right - 8
Total - 19
Bournemouth:
Left - 6
Middle - 11
Right - 6
Total - 23
Everton:
Left - 13
Middle - 6
Right - 5
Total - 24
Chelsea:
Left - 11
Middle - 7
Right - 7
Total - 25
Total:
Left - 34
Middle - 37
Right - 29
Final Third - 15
Middle Third - 81
Defensive Third - 4
Left of pitch - 1 Long Pass
Middle of pitch - 5 Long Passes
Right of pitch - 3 Long Passes
Total - 9
City:
Left - 3
Middle - 8
Right - 8
Total - 19
Bournemouth:
Left - 6
Middle - 11
Right - 6
Total - 23
Everton:
Left - 13
Middle - 6
Right - 5
Total - 24
Chelsea:
Left - 11
Middle - 7
Right - 7
Total - 25
Total:
Left - 34
Middle - 37
Right - 29
Final Third - 15
Middle Third - 81
Defensive Third - 4
In the same period of time Chelsea had 36 total long passes compared to Uniteds 100. That took a while to do!
He definitely wanted Perisic the summer before last, we were also heavily linked with Willian this summer. We were heavily linked with Alex Sandro and signed a RB. Mourinho said he wanted two players but thought he would only get one more days before deadline day. If one was a CB (which he thought he was getting), what was the other position? The links to a physical presence up front (Mandzukic, Arnautovic) died after Fellaini signed a contract.
The second player was most probably a RW. Everyone knows we need one.
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