The REAL reason we are failing

redmanx said:
it was when the Glazers arrived in in 2003 we had money to burn.
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Irish Jet said:
A lot of people harp back to the good old days of Ferguson but the rot had largely set in under him.
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Truth is the Glazers deprived the club of a competitive transfer budget for very many years and relied on SAF to squeeze performances out of less than stellar players. I sometimes think SAF would have protested more if it hadn't been his hubris that had brought about the Glazer purchase in the first place.
 
As far as things go with regards to a manager , we are in the middle of nowhere at the moment. Either we go the modern rout of DOF or we take some inspiration from this club's history, Busby came and went and people probably said "there'll never be another Busby" and then years later came SAF. Our success has been primarily down to 2 figurehead managers, why not another one?
 
UpWithRivers said:
There is a lot of blame going around blaming every single player and manager and the board and the owners. We keep saying we need to buy this player and that player and get another manager, change this, change that. But lets look at it from a different angle.

We have one of the most experienced managers in football with equal number of trophies to Pep. We have one of the most expensive squads with very talented players. Previous to Mourinho we had Van Gaal another very experienced and highly decorated manager and an expensive squad. Ok we can start arguing that most of our players wont get into Cities team and we play boring football etc. But that is not the point. To win the Prem you need to be consistent. We can loose to City and thats not ok but its acceptable. What we should do is beat the other 15 teams home and away. Thats 90 points. Ok. Ok thats not realistic. There will be off days. But we can make up those points from drawing and winning a few games against the top 5 even if we arnt as good as them on paper as they also will have off days against us.

This is what for me was the genius of Ferguson. He knew that he had a system and a methodology that would produce a team that would relentlessly win against most of the other teams. It was a machine. Yes we had great players but the greatness was the ability to grind out results week in week out.
So why cant we do that now? Its the players? No it isnt. Our team is better at least than 15 other teams. Its the manager? No. Better than at least 15 other teams. Its the way we play. Shouldn't matter. We should be beating Brighton, West Ham and the rest of them week in week out with the odd freak result going against us then coming up against City etc and losing or maybe grabbing a lucky win/draw.

So whats the problem you ask? No one believes in the Managers philosophy. Not Van Gaals, Not Mourinho's and not even David Moyes. How do we get anywhere when the fans, the board and even the players do not believe in the managers philosophy? This stems from the 'Utd Way' and the legacy that was Ferguson. Even this season you can see Mourinho talking about being more attacking. When you look at the team. Do you see a Mourinho team? No. Its is nothing like his teams of old. Do you see players with absolute trust and dedication to his system and his methodology? No way. Players are questioning him all the time. So are the fans and the board. We can get rid of Mourinho but whoever we get in we will never get anywhere until we (the board, the fans and the players) all believe 100 percent in the manager and support him no matter what.

And I say this as a fan that just wants the 'Utd Way' brought back. But maybe its time to let go.
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Or bring in someone who does want to play that way like City, Liverpool, Spurs and Chelsea did. We've thrown 3 dour defensive managers at the problem. Nobody wants shit football so why keep doing it?
 
3 different managers, 3 different styles with the ceo meddling in transfer business way too much and getting it wrong as he's not a football person. It's a no brainer.
 
Lost arguably the best manager that has ever existed

Lost a long term chief executive at the exact same time. Poor planning that both were able to leave at the same time.

Because of the way the club was structured losing these two men at the top meant we lost direction and stability.

Hired a terrible manager who should never have been approached for the job. This wasn't help by the fact all the top managers had already agreed to other jobs

Appointed a new chief executive with no football experience at the exact same time as the terrible manager. When you actually look at this it was a recipe for disaster from the very start. What the hell were the Glazers thinking.

Moyes signed two players that didn't fit his formation. Started the season with a squad that hadn't been strengthened whilst all rivals had. The fact that Ferdinand, Vidic and Evra all left at pretty much the same time meant we desperately needed to strengthen in defence that season, Moyes was buying midfielders.

Second manager hired who again should not have been appointed. He had a completely different philosophy to the first manager.

Van Gaal went about changing the team far to quickly. Sold our current players on the cheap whilst buying expensive duds which has set us back years.

Hire yet another managers, who again has a different philosophy to the previous manager. Spent a fortune on what look like good players on paper. Decides not to use them or don't fit into the system he wants to play. We have ended up still using half a squad of players we had under Ferguson and Moyes.

The club standing by players who haven't been good enough for years, and paid too much money they would not get at other clubs. Then we can't sell them for good value. The only top club that can't make good profits on the sale of players. Our highest transfer sale is Ronaldo sold in 2008 as the best player in the world. Second is Di Maria, which we lost £15m on the purchase in just one season. After that its David Beckham in 2003!

Whilst all this has happened City have been allowed to strengthen to a point they will be untouchable for years to come. Chelsea has spent a fortune which is rarely reported, they actually spent more than City last season (well over £200m). Liverpool have bought in a good manager that understands what the club needs and fans want. The whole club is working together as a unit, Spurs similarly.
 
sunama said:
From what I recall, the person in charge of contracts is Matt Judge. I believe that this man has an accountancy/financial background and has no interest in on-pitch football performances.
It sounds like I am making this all up, but this is what our club is actually doing.

If it makes business sense, then A.Young will be offered a new contract, irrespective of his performance on the pitch.
And this is one of the reasons why I believe every manager will fail to win the league, at MUFC. I simply don't buy the argument that every manager who joins us, underperforms, because they turned shit. LVG and now Jose are basically making do with what they have and constraints placed upon them. With this in mind, they have come up with a playing style which will enable them to get the highest points finish, using players like Smalling, Jones, Valencia, Young, etc.
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I don't absolve Jose entirely by any means, but I think your point remains anyways. If this same team was having fun, expressing themselves, and playing for a manager who motivates them, I think our results and the mood around the club would be better. I do not, however, think that we would be good enough to challenge the top teams in our league let alone in European competition.

The "etc." that I bolded extends to quite a long list of players unfortunately - including several that have significant roles in the squad.
 
I'm pretty sure if we swapped first 11 players with Man City at the start of the season, we would still lost 3-1 the same. With Lukaku, Sanchez and Pogba scoring for Man City side.
 
rpg said:
I'm pretty sure if we swapped first 11 players with Man City at the start of the season, we would still lost 3-1 the same. With Lukaku, Sanchez and Pogba scoring for Man City side.
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Exactly this. Yes City have a better squad but there's not a gulf in quality between the two. Pep is just a way better coach and maximizes what he has.
 
rpg said:
I'm pretty sure if we swapped first 11 players with Man City at the start of the season, we would still lost 3-1 the same. With Lukaku, Sanchez and Pogba scoring for Man City side.
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Xixak17 said:
Exactly this. Yes City have a better squad but there's not a gulf in quality between the two. Pep is just a way better coach and maximizes what he has.
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LOL keep thinking this. Sure, after we get a new manager all will be right again and we will up again challenging for the title. There is no gulf between the clubs, it's all just one guy. Fix that guy and you fix the problem!!!

Our fans are sure having a hard time accepting the new situation we are in, and Mourinho is bearing the brunt of that. We aren't anywhere near City in terms of squad and club structure.
 
Christie said:
LOL keep thinking this. Sure, after we get a new manager all will be right again and we will up again challenging for the title. There is no gulf between the clubs, it's all just one guy. Fix that guy and you fix the problem!!!

Our fans are sure having a hard time accepting the new situation we are in, and Mourinho is bearing the brunt of that. We aren't anywhere near City in terms of squad and club structure.
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Do you have the same view of Madrid as well as they suffered even bigger defeat to their rivals?
 
glazed said:
Truth is the Glazers deprived the club of a competitive transfer budget for very many years and relied on SAF to squeeze performances out of less than stellar players. I sometimes think SAF would have protested more if it hadn't been his hubris that had brought about the Glazer purchase in the first place.
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We played a very simple style of football that even average players could excel in if used correctly.

Our current manager seems to be trying to massively over complicate everything to try and get performances out of players who are simply not capable of playing the way he wants.

We also labour under this awful and tumescent 3-2-4-1 or 5-4-1 or what ever its supposed to be system which leaves us light up top, with only one out ball, to an isolated striker who has nobody running off him, with wing backs who are nowhere in sight and dont do anything with the ball when they do get there.

If Ferguson was still here and had this exact same set of players he would be playing 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 depending on who he played up front.

We would make minimal changes between games and wouldnt give a rats ass if it was Bournemouth or Barcelona we were playing, we would try and get after them and play our way.
 
Christie said:
LOL keep thinking this. Sure, after we get a new manager all will be right again and we will up again challenging for the title. There is no gulf between the clubs, it's all just one guy. Fix that guy and you fix the problem!!!

Our fans are sure having a hard time accepting the new situation we are in, and Mourinho is bearing the brunt of that. We aren't anywhere near City in terms of squad and club structure.
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I guess it's what blind fandom does, but I feel the same way you do. We've got players starting that wouldn't objectively make the bench of our rivals, nevermind their first XI. We've got players starting that aren't technically gifted enough to play for Wolves.

Considering who we had available on Sunday, you could've mistaken the team we put out against our biggest rivals to be Everton or West Ham. If you didn't know otherwise by the kits they were wearing.
 
I am not a United fan but, as an outsider, I believe Mourinho is wrong for Utd because of his personality and not his undoubted ability.

I remember Sir Bobby doing an interview after Fergie announced he would be retiring explaining why he didn't see Jose as the right kind of manager.

The crux of his argument was that Jose was too vocal to the press and that too much of that was about him rather than the team or club.

I'd be surprised if he has seen anything to change that view since he took over at Utd.

I also remember fergie singling out one particular aspect of guardiola's management which demanded respect from players, press, fans and club. That was his humility.

Imo Utd need to start again with a younger, progressive, less volatile manager; build a longer term strategy and work to achieve that. They've been down the quick fix, big time manager route already.
 
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There is no one way to solve a problem, Mourinho's approach is logical to the T, why take 10 touches, when you can achieve the same result with 5, whereas Guardiola's, involves taking risk and being creative, on any given day either one can succeed.

For Mourinho's teams to succeed it involves concerntration, organization and anticipation, being able to constantly anaylze situations within the conduits of the game and take advantage of opportunties.


The squad is not that far way from what Mourinho is trying to achieve, a central defender is a must, a right back and a right sided winger or forward to give the team balance.
 
Ducklegs said:
We played a very simple style of football that even average players could excel in if used correctly...
If Ferguson was still here and had this exact same set of players he would be playing 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 depending on who he played up front.
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Can't help thinking football has moved on since then. Isn't it all about the high press and wotnot now? Not that I really understand this stuff.
 
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