This is what has us science nerds so geeked about mRNA vaccines. The ability to change the encoded protein “on the fly” is mind blowing and something traditional vaccines just can’t do.
The vaccines | vaxxed boosted unvaxxed? New poll
- Thread starter Badunk
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Nobody gets denied a vaccine where I live. I'm sure the US and elsewhere that does occur but why would Moderna, Pfiser and AZ throw millions of development dollars at developing a vaccine if they know they won't be able to profit from it in the event they are successful?
Great isn't it?
I agree with both of you. The concept of mRNA vaccines these companies have developed is not ground breaking. mRNA vaccines have been around for a while in the vet world. What they have pioneered is the insane production scale up, as well as the delivery system (basically how the mRNA is stabilized for injection). Each company spent billions rapidly developing these systems, and for that they should be rewarded. The future that mRNA vaccines brings is mind blowing.
So here is where I agree with @Wibble. The production of thousands of different types of mRNA vaccines is child’s play once you set up a facility to make them. Traditional protein and polysaccharide vaccines require very specific set ups to ensure proper protein folding and post translational modifications (ie methylation, acetylation, etc.). Each vaccine is different, so each production line is unique. With mRNA vaccines the only difference between a COVID vaccine and a flu vaccine is the sequence encoded by the mRNA. All you need to do to change this is swap out the primers used during synthesis. So the same production line can make vaccines to pretty much anything. If Pfizer is forced to reveal or give up its patent for the vaccine delivery system they loose the magic sauce.
Now, I also agree with @entropy that for too long vaccinations have been kept out of the poorest nations by sheer cost and greed. This is wrong, not just for COVID, but for all vaccinations.
there needs to be middle ground. Pharma companies need to be incentivized to make these breakthroughs that can potentially revolutionize how we treat infectious diseases, but those treatments must be guaranteed for everyone, not just the wealthiest people and countries. I don’t know what the answer is, but it needs to be found.
They are not throwing away anything. These companies got billions in subsidies from the govt here in the US. And they have already generated close to 4 billion through contracts with other countries.
I don't know so much about Moderna and Pfizer, but an investigation by the Guardian looking into the Oxford/AZ vaccine found that 97% of the research costs were publicly funded. Interestingly this isn't just the cost for researching the vaccine since early 2020, this is the cost of research going back to the early 2000s covering the development of the vaccine technology as well that underpins it as well.
https://www.theguardian.com/science...covid-vaccine-research-was-97-publicly-funded
A quick google search suggests for Pfizer the German government gave 445 million up front to accelerate research while the US committed to buying 100 million doses ($2 Billion) before anyone knew whether it would get FDA approval an committed to buying another 500 million if that approval was given.
I know the Covid vaccine has had a different evolutionary process to most others but the companies here were never taking the huge financial gambles that they'd like us to think.
If they get paid, however that is then the incentve remains. Just tearing up their IP removes their ability to earn money from them. Big pharma isn't exactly on my Christmas list but just tearing up IP laws when it suits us is a recipet for disaster. Maybe these huge incentives you talk of should be conditional on free or cheap supply to developing nations via an organisation like the UN or WHO? Whatvere the solution I see a danger in creating a situation where the next pandemic doesn't result in a huge race to develop a vaccine at all.
If governments cover some or all of the costs of development then the contract should have built provision for cheap/free distribution in developing nations into the contracts. I'm sure there are (and should be) solutions but I think simply cancelling copyright is fraught with danger and likely illegal anyway.
I agree with you in general, but given the extraordinary circumstances of Covid-19 waiving the copyright would allow countries to produce their own versions and take a big step to doing away with vaccine diplomacy/arguments/shortages etc. AstraZeneca is non profit which fits the idea of cheap free distribution, but that's still not getting it out to many places as quickly as we would like.
I think it's easy for us in developed countries, where the vaccine is readily available, but lots of others are really struggling to get any doses at all. Covax which was set up to help with this has only been able to deliver about 50 million doses so far, which is a drop in the ocean compared to what is needed. The pandemic clearly will not be over until we have all been vaccinated so waiving the copyright and allowing anyone to produce it themselves makes perfect sense to me ... in this circumstance.
Wouldn't be a solutions to force pharma industries to make a % quota at a cost? they can choose that or no patent during the pandemic. They can still profit (a lot) in the developed country markets
The national progress page is much more reliable.
Marche had another 50,000 doses delivered yesterday and administered 12,000.
The patents are the tip of the iceberg really. Most of the core technologies were developed with public funding. Oxford and Biontech got grant support for basic research. Some of the key rights are actually with the US government NIH who developed technology to allow the Spike proteins to be mimicked in a stable form.
What the pandemic has demonstrated is that there's a lack of manufacturing capacity globally. The US government was able to protect the supply chains for Pfizer and Moderna using things like export controls and the Defence procurement Act. Even so, firms like J&J and Novavax were left scrambling for US capacity and blocked from sending materials abroad.
I suspect, whether the patents are waived or not, the Biden administration expect the real money is in the process of technology transfer and licensing. Novavax have deals with Korea, India, Australia, Japan, Canada etc to make their product. But they still haven't hit production volume in the US, UK or the EU plants - so they're months away from being useful. J&J, a much bigger company, aren't ramping up fast either.
Moderna are effectively novices in mass production, but they got there and could now start doing the tech transfer for their product - and I bet they'll be handsomely rewarded for it. They've already said they won't try and enforce their IP rights on covid vaccines (as have J&J). My money's on the US government deciding exactly which friendly nations deserve such tech support.
Pfizer clearly know a lot now about both the vaccine and the manufacturing ramp-up and have started to share that with their pals. If they get encouraged (ie: paid now and in the future) to share it more widely as an instrument of US foreign policy, then they will. The fact that they may be able save millions of people won't be lost on them either - the people who work in "big pharma" aren't generally monsters even though it may look like that at times.
What the pandemic has demonstrated is that there's a lack of manufacturing capacity globally. The US government was able to protect the supply chains for Pfizer and Moderna using things like export controls and the Defence procurement Act. Even so, firms like J&J and Novavax were left scrambling for US capacity and blocked from sending materials abroad.
I suspect, whether the patents are waived or not, the Biden administration expect the real money is in the process of technology transfer and licensing. Novavax have deals with Korea, India, Australia, Japan, Canada etc to make their product. But they still haven't hit production volume in the US, UK or the EU plants - so they're months away from being useful. J&J, a much bigger company, aren't ramping up fast either.
Moderna are effectively novices in mass production, but they got there and could now start doing the tech transfer for their product - and I bet they'll be handsomely rewarded for it. They've already said they won't try and enforce their IP rights on covid vaccines (as have J&J). My money's on the US government deciding exactly which friendly nations deserve such tech support.
Pfizer clearly know a lot now about both the vaccine and the manufacturing ramp-up and have started to share that with their pals. If they get encouraged (ie: paid now and in the future) to share it more widely as an instrument of US foreign policy, then they will. The fact that they may be able save millions of people won't be lost on them either - the people who work in "big pharma" aren't generally monsters even though it may look like that at times.
We've had two government ministers talking to the press about international borders not reopening in Australia even once a significant proportion of the population is vaccinated. The rationale is uncertainty regarding the duration of immunity and efficacy against variants. To me, this seems overly cautious given some of the problems that locked international borders cause; decimation of tourism industry, separation of families, numerous economic costs. From what I have read it seems vaccination prevents severe disease irregardless of strain, and longevity of immunity, although still somewhat unknown, will likely be for at least a year. When you add the glacial pace at which the vaccine rollout is occurring here and the hesitancy due to the clotting issue, it seems that my hopes of seeing my family in the UK soon (within the next year) are extremely low.
It's hard to gauge what the general feeling on closed borders in Australia is. I could imagine if you don't have close family abroad or work in an industry that is not affected then you might be happy with closed borders indefinitely. But then apparently in 2020 29.8% of Australia's population were born overseas and presumably all of those people have loved ones abroad. I am concerned that Australia seems to pursuing an indefinite zero covid policy. I always thought the idea was to eradicate, vaccinate, open, but it seems that at least some people in government may not ever accept any covid cases here.
It's hard to gauge what the general feeling on closed borders in Australia is. I could imagine if you don't have close family abroad or work in an industry that is not affected then you might be happy with closed borders indefinitely. But then apparently in 2020 29.8% of Australia's population were born overseas and presumably all of those people have loved ones abroad. I am concerned that Australia seems to pursuing an indefinite zero covid policy. I always thought the idea was to eradicate, vaccinate, open, but it seems that at least some people in government may not ever accept any covid cases here.
Next year's vaccines. A combined flu/covid jab from Novavax - first reports of results from animal (hamster) trials.
It’s a day of reckoning that was always going to happen. Vaccines were never going to be 100% effective and it’s obviously not feasible to enforce hotel quarantine forever. So it’s inevitable that the virus will get a foothold in Australia and end up killing Australian citizens. You can see why there’s a lack of political will to put it as bluntly as that but it’s the reality of the situation.
The #zerocovid gang are evangelical to the point of madness. It’s fascinating seeing them go to war with scientists who disagree on social media. Not a hint of pragmatism or compromise. And they’re all extremely qualified and well recognised experts. Must be a nightmare for politicians stuck between these opposing ideologies. Who do you listen to?!
Niiiiiiice.
The whole influenza vaccine thing is interesting Every winter we accept the health service getting flattened by a virus that we already have vaccines for. At least in part because the uptake of that vaccine is so low. In a post-covid world I don’t think that will be tolerated any more.
isn't there also an issue around the lack of raw materials?
I think the flu vaccine uptake being low is probably due to the fact it costs money and there will be a higher uptake if it is offered for free. I know I never had it until I started getting vouchers through work. It probably would have been different if I ever had got the flu mind.
Yep. Though some companies probably could re-purpose production lines if they knew exactly what ingredients are required - not a quick process, not a simple one (to do to the right quality/purity). They'd need massive tech transfer and regulatory support to do it. Some components are effectively locked down because they really are just in extreme shortage and take months, even years (in the case of some of the natural components) to produce. Procurement cooperation would help though.
The other shortage area is for physical plant. Even if you've got the right factory unit the disposables are an issue. The bioreactor liners and the custom sensors, even they plastic tubing. Again, that's about more than just putting a diagram/specification up. Even the current manufacturers providing the components find it hard to add new lines/capacity - again it'll be about tech support, quality control and regulatory backup.
If you don't have the right factory, lead times on things like the mixing and filter vsystems, and the deep freezes used by the current mRNA products are stretched. Some vaccines are easier for manufacturing transfer than others, but they've all got shortages or long lead items. Coordination of supplies is crucial, probably moreso than the patents in the next year.
How likely is it that the Vaccine bookings will open up to me next week in the UK? I'm 38.
Worth keeping an eye on your local GP and if they have spares/ people not taking up their vaccine. I’m far younger than you and that’s how I got mine.
Feck yeah. Pump these data into my veins. Thread below that tweet giving more details.
Great news. Looks about c.10% better than J&J against the variants on both counts.
I know AZ didn’t do well against the variants in the lab, but I wouldn’t be surprised if real world data suggests it’s decent against the variants as well. Either way, it’s all pointing to the fact that we need to get as many people vaccinated as soon as possible regardless of vaccine, which is a relief.
AZ wasn’t rolled out in S Africa because of real world data. Only a small sample size but results were poor. It was a young cohort of patients, none of whom got seriously ill so possible there was good efficacy against severe illness just couldn’t show it in that trials. I’m sure we’ll see more real world data soon.
They are distracting from their disastrous bungling of vaccine ordering and the rollout. The usealess twats bet the house on an AU vaccine (UQ that failed) and an AU manufactured vaccine (AZ that has issues for U50's) leaving them with a small supply of Pfhizer. They didn't order Moderns for some reason. They wanted a party political broadcast launch with 20 Aussie flags in the background. If we had everyone vaccinated by the original October target we could have opened up even if vaccination and home quarantine was a condition of your return. I'm hoping that will happen as #scottyfrommarketing will otherwise have even bigger problems with female voters if my wife doesn't get to see our son this Christmas.
They planned to vaccinate everyone by October and then open up gradually - vaccinated citizens and permanent residents first with 14 days home self quarantine on return. They have fecked up the vaccine rollout and don't want dead Australians as a result as that might hit them even harder in the polls. If the entire Federal cabinet's hair was on fire I wouldn't piss on them.
We are starting to run into more problems with AstraZeneca in Italy. We've run out of elderly people to vaccinate. 38% of over 60s are still not vaccinated but it's not for lack of doses, it's because they don't want the AZ vaccine that is being offered to them. There is vaccine hesitancy in the South anyway but there are almost 2 million AZ doses sitting in refrigerators now. The government is extending authorisation to over 50s to try and get rid of them but it's making it difficult to stay above 500k dose per day target.
Selfishly, i hope it means they get down to the younger population quicker than planned.
https://www.today.it/attualita/over...26.174266033.1620230096-1826579696.1612958683
Selfishly, i hope it means they get down to the younger population quicker than planned.
https://www.today.it/attualita/over...26.174266033.1620230096-1826579696.1612958683
The reports of the AZ vaccine not being offered to the under 40's in the UK has me worried. I was confident I would be able to book an appointment next week. And now I'm not sure.
I'm mid 30's and had the AZ back in March, and classed as being in a 'at risk' group. From my own personal experience, there's nothing to worry about.
Oh, I'm not worried about taking it. I would have it tomorrow. I'm just worried that if they stop giving it for the under 40's then the rollout is going to be affected. I'm so close to that first jab, now.
I think you'll be ok, couple of colleagues who are in a similar age bracket to me got their first AZ vaccines this week in Lancashire. I'd expect them to open up online in the coming weeks.
I got an email asking if I want to be considered for the Valneva trial, not sure if I should do it or not
Should be ok, I thought the line was even in the under 30s that they would use a different one if available, which implies they may still use it if they don’t have another. Who knows
Hopefully this means the rollout doesn’t slow down as I’m looking forward to getting my invite.
Are you asking me or telling me? Confusing why I'm tagged
Will get my jab on the 23rd this month. Really exciting! In Germany I am in prioritiy group 3 due to my profession. Unfortunately I can't go to my general practicioner but to a vaccine center. It's a 20 minute drive so not too bad, but still. I would have loved to just walk down the street and get it there. Also, the cost is much lower (not that I had to pay for it, but still relevant) since my gp just gets 20€ for vaccinating me but at a vaccine center it costs around 250€ per dose. Doctors and staff in such centers earn absurd amounts of money per hour, like around 200€ per hour. Building is expensive, rent, equipment etc...it's an insane waste of money compared to a vaccination at your gp.
Edit:
Getting BioNtech
Edit:
Getting BioNtech
Last edited:
My partner and I are both due our 2nd AZ shots later this month. We're both 30.
It's going to be a bumpy ride
It's going to be a bumpy ride
The communication on that is poor. They want to change the cutoff from 30 to 40 because the risk from covid is lower now, not because the risk from clot is higher.
Yeah that’s a terrible headline. Irresponsible reporting really.