Really, then I'd assume you'd already know that their relationship is described as being 'like father and son'? Because I'm struggling to think of many relationships that would more fit the description of 'very close'.
Top 4 race 2016/17
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Really, then I'd assume you'd already know that their relationship is described as being 'like father and son'? Because I'm struggling to think of many relationships that would more fit the description of 'very close'.
Given youse are on the topic. Heres a video from a journalist a few years ago who spoke out about it on SKY. Explains it well i think
Dont mind chelsea's fans enjoying the success but its pretty ignorant for them and indeed others to brush it under the carpet and downplay it in light of the repercussions of how said money was obtained.
Its really quite annoying when fans ( liverpool and united fans are extremely guily of this) try to trivialise world issues just because of the inherently triablistic nature of football, its quite sickening that many are not able to remove the proberbial rose-tinted glasses and actually realise that 'hang on a minute the more we continue to perpetuate the idea this is okay the more people will suffer'.
Its like people live in a bubble where only football exists and everything else is inconsequential.
Jesus mate, Google something with a bit more depth to it.
There are more threats to Abramovich than just his 'father' turning against him.
Hey what does James Cameron have to do with this?
Downplay it? Seriously, when you look at how almost all large fortunes are made it's basically impossible to look at it with anything other than disgust. Behind almost all billionaires there is a trail of vileness that would make any normal decent person sick.
So why don't we hold football owners to those standards? Well to be honest with you, football to me is a diversion. It's about the one thing in my life aside from family that has always been there, an ever present thread running from being a toddler to today. Does that make me think that somehow Abramovich is beyond being judged? Absolutely not, but in a world full of seriously vile and morally repulsive individuals, companies and governments, I choose to not give a single flying feck about this one, because to do so would mean I'd have to divorce myself from something that actually gives me enjoyment. Should I? Would it make a single solitary difference to anything if I did? No. It'd just be one person in a world full of assholes, denying themselves something that makes them happy because they felt the need to single out one asshole in particular.
If you have a moral need to seperate yourself from anything that is linked to deeply immoral practises then stop buying things today. Seriously, don't buy a single goddamn thing from any major retailer or supplier. Don't have energy delivered from any of the major energy companies. Stop paying taxes to your government who will quite literally kill people or let people die to ensure an election result.
You can't free yourself from involvement in morally horrific practices because they surround you every day and are immersed into every aspect of your life. The only reason we even live in an advanced country is because it was built on the theft and exploitation of countries weaker than ours. So you pick your battles, because frankly there's not a single thing else you can do.
I agree with the sentiment in regards to everyday life, there is just way too much exploitation and morally corrupt behaviour that is enacted by the very people we entrust to look after our best interests for us to take too much of a moral high ground. Hell I even understand why you'd want to diverge away from addressing the issue right at home ( your own football club) the truth is we could as you rightly say cite examples from every facet of our daily mundane lives to reinforce and play "whos the sickest" taking it in turns to misconstrue facts and simultaneusly reassure ourselves that whatever slender morally acceptable act emerges from the rubble is enough justification in our own little moral compasses.
However the truth is if we wilfully choose to remain ignorant whenever it suits us then what's the point in fighting back and believing that the vile injustices we see every day can eventually subside. Whats going to act as a deterrent if not ourselves because its sure as hell not going to be a governing body. Corruption is ingrained and seeps through every pore and crack in the people who are ostensibly supposed to be the moral compass.
I get why on a footballing scale you'd want to put some palpable distance between the greater wrongs and the acceptable ones. But the truth is every time we admit defeat and every time we resort to petty triablistic taunts its a win for the corporations, as we fight among ourselves and ignore the greed. They win and they dont even have to do it with any sort of nuance, feck accepting it and making it easy for them.
Very good post!
They already won. When you heard about people working in the smartphone factories in Asia killing themselves because of the horrific working conditions, or the people working in the rare minerals mines working practically as slaves doing backbreaking labour for pennies a day, did you stop using your smartphone? When our major food companies were convincing our governments to overthrow democratic regimes to help maintain their profit margins, did we stop buying their food?
I'm actually not completely fatalistic about this despite how those previous words sound, and I'm all for people taking a stand, but until people realize quite how deep the corruption goes then standing up and waving a banner or not buying a football ticket really is nothing more than a token gesture. In a way that's even worse, because then we're convincing ourselves that we're not part of the problem, when we all are. Not by any reasonable choice, but by our actions and inactions none the same.
Im not in any way saying stop going to matches or start waving protest banners. I'm merely asking that the fact that the russian people's rights have been defiled and stamped on unceremoniously be acknowledged! Like you stated albeit a tad depressingly, everything we encounter on a daily basis can be construed in one way or another to be obtained within a grey area to say the least and be deemed to be completely unethical.
However accepting that we as a planet are dying gives us an opportunity to conduct a thorough post-mortem. Particularly in the dawn of the internet era, it gives us a platform and yes we may be threatened and subjugated, our views streamlined and altered to fit a more pleasing narrative to be spoonfed to the masses, but at least in the very essence of its form it allows us to uncover the obscene acts that occur on a day to day basis. At least it affords us an opportunity no matter how futile and minimalistic to make aware the rest of the planet. It really can be only a good thing the more tech savvy and world educated people become on world issues and not submitting to the script and being maniplulated in to fighting each other and becoming intoxicated with everything but the truth.
Its an insatiable desire for success that drives the very top footballers, if theres a lesson we should learn it should be that in respect to the truth. I understand the stance you take, and the miserable and doom-laden picture you paint is not althogether untrue, but we shouldnt let football let us deviate from the wider picture. If there's ever a time to expose the atrocities that led to the current state of affairs, now is it. Taking a stand is as simple as believing.
I don't see Top 4 happening for us, we should have used the previous slips ups to get in there and then fight to keep it. The run in is very difficult, I think we should take Europa seriously if we want Champions League next season.
I think it's great. United, Liverpool, & Arsenal - 8 European Cups, 51 League titles, lord knows how many FA/League cups, all finally competing with each other again!
(For top 4)
(For top 4)
Your insertion of the word "little" out of nowhere is all the proof that you're not thinking straight. What's getting you emotional? This has got to be a bit more than a Chelsea-Spurs rivalry.
Ah well that explains it. Fully understand then. No need for me to respond further. Have at it mate. I'll take my simpleton, know nothing self away from this and focus on football, thank you.
Why do Chelsea fans have to be uncomfortable with Roman Abramovich? Could you tell me a single thing that he did wrong with Chelsea Football Club? He bought Chelsea, paid all the debt, invested in squad, built new training ground. The club have been winning trophies, increasing revenue, value, sponsorship. 4th most followed, 7th most valuable football club. He has turn a financial trouble club in England into one of the biggest football club in Europe, in-waiting champions of England this season. He did the best things that a man can do for his club.
Now, you apparently don't like him. That's okay as it doesn't affect anything. But you seem happy with your club's success in last 2 seasons (still win nothing) and forget many things in the past.
If Roman Abramovich did really want to have your club, he would have got it. Levy quoted £50 million for all ENIC's shares, equivalent to 29.9% of Spurs. This would have valued your club at around £150 million at that time. Roman thought it was a ridiculous price. He paid the same amount for Chelsea, including the cost of £60 million and all the debt. How does that mean? That means he valued Chelsea higher than Tottenham. He bought Chelsea instead.
As Sven Goran-Eriksson said:
‘He was thinking Chelsea or Tottenham.
‘He phoned me and said: “Who shall I buy?”
‘I said if you want to win the league then Chelsea – because you only have to change half of the team.
‘At that time with Tottenham maybe you would have had to change the whole team.’
In fact, Chelsea had been in top 6 for 7 seasons prior to Roman's reign, being in top 4 and qualifying Champions League twice, winning 2 FA cups, UEFA Cup Winners' Cup, UEFA Super Cup (beating Real Madrid). Tottenham was a club at bottom half table and won one Football League Cup during the same period.
That's about the past. I just want to remind you that if Roman did really want your club, he would have got it. So if you are happy now because he is not your club owner, you are just lucky because he did reject your club.
About Chelsea and the future, it is now not an unsustainable club and a liability to its owner as people think. Chelsea is now being valued at £1.2 billion, ranked 7th most valuable football clubs in the world. It just signed a £900 million deal with Nike and £200 million with Yokohama, with none of those deals being related to Russia or Roman's backyard businesses. In fact, those deals are the results of a massive global fan base: 4th biggest global fan base, 4th most followers on social media, 4th highest shirts sales, most followed premier League club in South America, Mexico, Russia, Spain, Italia, second most followed English club in the US, France, Germany and third most followed club in various countries. That popularity is the core asset of the club now. The club will earn and live well with its popularity one day and by the time, its owner will be paid back.
Resources:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2421675/Levy-breaks-his-silence-on-Abramovich-link.html
http://metro.co.uk/2013/11/05/sven-...t-tottenham-but-i-advised-him-not-to-4173882/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/10/13/chelsea-confirm-huge-60m-a-year-kit-deal-with-nike/
https://www.forbes.com/teams/chelsea/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...r-club-globe-according-Twitter-followers.html
Here's the thing though, you ALREADY choose to remain ignorant whenever it suits you. 99% of the time. Otherwise, as @Kentonio pointed out, there's a lot of technology you wouldn't be using right now and a lot of clothes you wouldn't be wearing and a lot of protests out on the streets you'd be doing against the government. I can go on and on. So it's a bit rich to pick football where some of us have gotten a lot of our livelihood for most of our lives as the one area where you want to take a stand.
Most of the Western world as we know it today was built on the backs of black African slaves. And you and I are enjoying the benefits of what those slaves were forced to do. We're talking about LITERAL slavery here. Why don't we both burn our passports and move elsewhere since we don't want to willfully choose to remain ignorant whenever it suits us then? There are a litany of examples I can start listen but I think I've said enough and @Kentonio has done a good job of expressing my thoughts for me. Besides, we're already derailing the thread.
Let's drop this faux moral compass towards Chelsea fans, shall we?
Look at the Liverpool fans moralising shit
. If you had any morals you'd stop supporting the disgusting racist club of yours.
. If you had any morals you'd stop supporting the disgusting racist club of yours.Not happy with the influence money has in football today. But this is a global problem and not limited to football. And I don't even think that Wenger out would solve capitalism.
Agree to stop derailing the thread so this'll be my last post on the subject. If you or @Kentonio want to discuss this further feel free to pm me.
You see the thing is, whilst you're drumming in the point about the everyday reality of the situation, you're completely missing the fact I already addressed the point on a larger scale. So i can only conclude its passed over your head or you're just blatantly distorting my words and instead trying to conjure it and simplify it in to a personal vendetta vs Chelsea fans.
So i'll repeat the essence of my earlier posts and i'll attempt to elucidate it a little.
I'd be saying the same thing if I was talking about the influence of the PSG/City/Qatari money. My point being that whilst I understand the need to want to bifurcate away football as a place unimpeded by a gluttony of corrupt and loathesome individuals who only seek to exploit the people and gleefully amass an abundance of wealth far exceeding what any normal human being really needs. The unfortunate reality is that the moment we concede hope and admit defeat in that aspect and indeed any facet of life, football included, the grave and bleak picture kentonio depicted will become an insurmountable reality. In every walk of life we have to acknowledge the barbarity we are privy to and start to speak out and believe that in this day and age it is possible to rectify to some extent the heinous behavior and actions we see and know.
I hope that clarifies my position, but I fear probably not as a poster below you has already thrown pointless verbal barbs once again trivialising such huge world issues to petty triabalistic shite whilst displaying an incredible prospensity for dim-wittedness.
I'll re-emphasise one last time, I have no issue with chelsea fans enjoying success, I wouldnt begrudge anyone that. But i feel we have a duty even in football to keep fighting and speaking out, and to not do so just because we're already seemingly entrapped just feels like giving up and to justify acts of ignorance with the examples you cited with other acts of ignorace just leaves us in a perpetual circle of arguments culminating in us attempting to live with a shifty conscious constantly deriding and blaming each other to justify our own moral compasses whilst failing to tackle the issues at all.
Thats how we lose, by playing the game by fighting amongst ourselves instead of against the real opposition.
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Probably the most intelligent discussion between you guys I've ever seen on the Cafe, with all parties having valid and convincing points....and therein lies the nature of humanity and the societies we have created. For every valid point, there will always be an opposite view that is just as valid for that person/society. When it comes greed, power, exploitation....well....it's part of our animalistic nature, we've always done it. Whereas we used to hunt for food and the better the hunter the more successful, powerful and respected you were.....now the prey is money - at all costs! Money is the nemesis of any moral compass and unfortunately I can't see that changing unless there is some sort of world catastrophe!!
Let go of the personal attacks for a second. I fully understand your point. I don't think you'll find a single Chelsea fan justifying the means by which Roman got his money. That much has been established. My point is (to you and the other Spurs lad) why choose football as the area to focus on? Surely there are way more effective sectors/industries/areas/(whatever you might call it) to make your voice heard and take steps to stand up to the barbaric nature of the money culture this days? The point of us laying out all those examples is to show you that it's everywhere around you. So why pick on football?
The other fella was trying to antagonize Chelsea fans for not giving a feck about the source of Roman's money. Why? Are we supposed to hound him out of the club? Have a go at Roman himself all you want, I couldn't care less. Just leave Chelsea fans out of it. We've been here long before Roman and we will be here long after Roman. We're just fans that love our club and love our football. This is misdirected anger in many ways. Right fight, wrong target. Do you know how many people over the last 70 years have died at the hands of the Soviet Union and now Russia? Hell, do you know how many innocent Syrians have died at the hands of Russians (and even Americans) just over the past 3 years or so?
It's in human nature to feck each other over. We've been doing it since the beginning of time and it will never stop. The concepts of worldwide peace and harmony are myths. There will always been one issue or the other and one fecked up thing going on somewhere or the other. That doesn't mean we should sit and watch of course. If we never took the courage to stand up to such instincts, humanity would be extinct by now. But directing this at football fans is utterly pointless. It's just a sport mate. Let people enjoy it. As I said, right fight, wrong target.
That's my last word on this as well. Apologies to everyone for derailing the thread.
What the feck has happened in here?
Aye lets leave it there for now bud, another discussion for another time and i fully get where your coming from. Even though it may have come across as such I have no personal issues with chelsea fans. My point was the essence of the fight is we have to fight it in every aspect of modern life just validating that one last time.
In any case I'll be rooting for you monday ( lesser of the two evils and all that
) if theres another thread in a different part of the forum we'll engage it at another time.I know, it's very strange. Why are people talking about Chelsea at all in a thread about the race to finish in the top 4?
We should move all the posts about Chelsea to the "title race" thread and shut then shut that one down until next season starts.
What's up in this thread?
Aye! Enemy of my enemy and all that!Aye lets leave it there for now bud, another discussion for another time and i fully get where your coming from. Even though it may have come across as such I have no personal issues with chelsea fans. My point was the essence of the fight is we have to fight it in every aspect of modern life just validating that one last time.
In any case I'll be rooting for you monday ( lesser of the two evils and all that
No I wasn't, I asked one person if he was comfortable with the owner of his football club being who he is, or at least the front for it being who he is. The problem with that is what?
This is more than about moral compass, even the blatant theft of state assets that should belong to the Russian people or even the hundreds of Russians who were killed in the aluminium wars. It's not down to Abramovich anyway, he was and always will be a front man and a lapdog to the big players, and that doesn't stop at Vlad. He's a convenient cog in a wheel who serves a purpose to his bosses. Abramovich's challenges aren't business related and certainly aren't football related, they centre around keeping himself useful, as in the way he did for Berezovsky.
Abramovich never speaks in public and it's little wonder. When he was forced to take the stand on the Sibneft trial it became apparent very quickly that this is a man who doesn't even understand the oil industry or business in general, which is somewhat strange for somebody who has massed a supposed wealth of $12 billion made through the oil industry.
it's got nothing to do with Chelsea football club, it's more to do whether somebody like this should be allowed to reside in the UK let alone own an asset like Chelsea, and what the purpose of the ownership of Chelsea is really about and who it really helps.
I fear I'm going to face a similar moral dilemma myself. I dread my football club, who I've supported all my life falling into the hands of somebody like the Qatari government, I almost feel that it's more likely than not. I don't know how I would deal with such a disaster but in my heart I feel it will be the day that I'm finished with football even though it would probably make us one of the richest, if not the richest football club in the world. I wouldn't let these people eat at my dinner table and I equally won't eat at theirs.
No more on this from me, unless somebody opened a thread on it in a different forum.
Liverpool play tomorrow, gonna be interesting to see if they continue with their best Robin Hood impression.
Isn't your owner one of the blokes who made a fortune trying to crash the British Pound and currently lives in the tax-free Bahamas? Not exactly a shining example of noblesse oblige no?
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Given the topsy turvy nature of our form, a first away win of the season for Burnley is more than likely
Given the topsy turvy nature of our form, a first away win of the season for Burnley is more than likely
Who knows, top 4 is yours to lose imo with your fixtures, but you seem more than able to do so atm.
Will be interesting to see what happens.Joe Lewis and Soros were indeed at the heart of black Wednesday but you might want to mark that one down to the uk govt for joining the ERM at an unsustainable level.
Very happy to discuss this in another thread as its a really interesting subject and was arguably the catalyst for a significant upturn in the UK economy?
It's business, you win some you lose some, I don't suppose Lewis was overly happy when he lost $800m in one day on Bear Stearns.
We aren't talking about business wins and losses here, I'm not Lewis' biggest fan but these worlds are miles apart.
Given the topsy turvy nature of our form, a first away win of the season for Burnley is more than likely
I have no doubt that Liverpool will make the top 4, it's not always as simple as this but you are on of the best 4 sides in the PL with an adventagious run-in.
For Spurs the next 2-3 weeks are vital, if we win our next 3 games I think we will practically seal our position, it's a big if though!
If roman owned Liverpool or Spurs I bet half the posts here wouldn't exist. He's been nothing but amazing for Chelsea
Politics in a top 4 race thread. Whatever next
Arsenals £30m from emirates includes the kit deal as well so in truth its more like 5m for stadium and 25 for the front of the kit.
Personally, I doubt Chelsea will ever sell the naming rights to the stadium. Unless, its a huge deal and all other clubs have done so before them. In business sense it wouldn't hurt though since Chelsea are turining into a marketing juggernaut.
Getting back to the actual point of this thread, I don't think we will make top 4, not anymore. If we managed to win against Bournemouth I'd be more confident but I just don't see us picking up enough points in the next few games. We've got a tough fixture list coming up and we aren't exactly putting teams to the sword at the moment.
Think our best bet is the Europa League, which we should be winning with our squad and the teams remaining. Roma the only other potential candidate it seems.
Think our best bet is the Europa League, which we should be winning with our squad and the teams remaining. Roma the only other potential candidate it seems.
Even they got beat 4-2 by Lyon. I think we need to go all out for the Europa and once CL is secured, we build on it in the transfer market.
Both are the only teams I'd be worried about and one of them will knock eachother out so happy days.
So in essence the argument is that Chelsea are owned by Putin.
Way to go SirAlexJones... oh I mean @SirHenryPercy
And for the last time, the equity far exceeds the debt (as pointed to you on numerous occasions) so stop deluding yourself that the debt to fordstam is ever going to be an issue. Having a debt close to equity insures Abramovich against any attempts to force him to sell the club.
On the other hand if someone bought it off from him amicably it would be far richer than city and psg owners. So unfortunately its all gloom for you lot.
Way to go SirAlexJones... oh I mean @SirHenryPercy
And for the last time, the equity far exceeds the debt (as pointed to you on numerous occasions) so stop deluding yourself that the debt to fordstam is ever going to be an issue. Having a debt close to equity insures Abramovich against any attempts to force him to sell the club.
On the other hand if someone bought it off from him amicably it would be far richer than city and psg owners. So unfortunately its all gloom for you lot.
Why Roma? They're trailing 4-2 to Lyon. I would say they're our biggest threat. We did get very lucky that they drew each other.
So in essence the argument is that Chelsea are owned by Putin.
Way to go SirAlexJones... oh I mean @SirHenryPercy
And for the last time, the equity far exceeds the debt (as pointed to you on numerous occasions) so stop deluding yourself that the debt to fordstam is ever going to be an issue. Having a debt close to equity insures Abramovich against any attempts to force him to sell the club.
On the other hand if someone bought it off from him amicably it would be far richer than city and psg owners. So unfortunately its all gloom for you lot.
Honestly mate let's just leave it, stick to the football, it's an easy game that requires little intelligence to watch and understand.