Mane featured in 10 of those 16 games. I think fixture congestion and a resultant drop in intensity may well have been a significant contributory factor.
Top 4 race 2016/17
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Mane featured in 10 of those 16 games. I think fixture congestion and a resultant drop in intensity may well have been a significant contributory factor.
On the basis we can at least lose one game I'd fancy our Top 4 chances better. Let's face it, our odds vs Arsenal are better than successfully negotiating two knockout rounds vs. Celta and Lyon.
9 actually. One he was a late sub (75 mins) and two he was subbed off early (inc. his injury vs. Everton). Fixture congestion in January was certainly an issue for the smallest squad of the Top 6. And other injuries ? Henderson, Lallana, Coutinho, Firmino, Sturridge, Matip etc. have they not affected us ?
Looking at the respective run-ins, if United finish above us and knock us out of the top 4 then fair play. That's a nightmare schedule, especially when you throw in at least 2 Europa League games into the mix and the players that are missing. There really is no excuse if City miss out.
Of course, Liverpool could still make way and it was interesting that Mourinho mentioned them and said it wasn't just about catching City, implying both City and United could finish in the top 4. Not sure whether that will be the case but Liverpool have tended to not do well against the lesser sides this season.
I wouldn't count Arsenal out yet and they always seem to find a way to do it but I'd consider them outsiders at this stage.
Of course, Liverpool could still make way and it was interesting that Mourinho mentioned them and said it wasn't just about catching City, implying both City and United could finish in the top 4. Not sure whether that will be the case but Liverpool have tended to not do well against the lesser sides this season.
I wouldn't count Arsenal out yet and they always seem to find a way to do it but I'd consider them outsiders at this stage.
With City's remaining fixtures, I'll be stunned if they don't make it.
I see, featured in 10, but only played 15 minutes in one of them. Thanks for the info. Yes of course injuries will have had an effect, another consequence of fixture congestion combined with Klopp's unforgiving style of football, perhaps?
So to summarise, in the early part of the season when your players were fresh and injury-free and had one game per week to prepare for, you scored lots of goals "50% more than United". In the 4 months since then, your workload has more-closely resembled that of United, City, Arsenal and Spurs and you've suffered numerous injuries, won fewer games, and scored goals at a rate below that of United (in the same period).
Technically, Liverpool require both City and United to drop points if they are to secure a place in the top four.
Yesterday's result was the worst possible for Liverpool because it keeps both United and City firmly in the top 4 race, so much so that if theoretically we both won all our games from this weekend onwards we'd be finishing 3rd and 4th respectively. However, in reality that's unlikely given the tough fixtures we have at least. I think Liverpool can get over that line, not comfortably or stumbling across- but somewhere in between. We cannot assume that every lower placed team is going to take points off them. The Stoke and WBA results were huge for them. Looking at the remaining fixtures I think Man City will win the majority of their games. I'd expect them to finish in the top 4.
As for ourselves, we definitely have the hardest run in with away fixtures to Arsenal, Tottenham (stellar home record) and Southampton. Then there's the added dilemma of the Europa Semis. If we had a fully fit squad then it would be a different scenario where we could juggle both, but we are struggling now to try and patch together potential holes whilst diminishing further risk of injury. Can we do it? Yeah but we have to take it in phases. Securing 6 points against Swansea and Arsenal will be crucial to give us some leeway vs Spurs. We will have probably have to ride our luck the most out of all the contenders.
Arsenal cannot be counted out either, but the problem with them is that we don't know which Arsenal we're going to get. Traditionally this is the time Arsenal pull themselves together and salvage their season with a good run of results, which has already started. However they have the NLD and ourselves which will most likely decide the fate of their League season. Pass those tests with flying colours and they could very well make top 4. It's very important for them not to lose to ourselves as a loss gains us 3 points, whilst effectively taking a chance to reclaim 3 points on us from them.
As for ourselves, we definitely have the hardest run in with away fixtures to Arsenal, Tottenham (stellar home record) and Southampton. Then there's the added dilemma of the Europa Semis. If we had a fully fit squad then it would be a different scenario where we could juggle both, but we are struggling now to try and patch together potential holes whilst diminishing further risk of injury. Can we do it? Yeah but we have to take it in phases. Securing 6 points against Swansea and Arsenal will be crucial to give us some leeway vs Spurs. We will have probably have to ride our luck the most out of all the contenders.
Arsenal cannot be counted out either, but the problem with them is that we don't know which Arsenal we're going to get. Traditionally this is the time Arsenal pull themselves together and salvage their season with a good run of results, which has already started. However they have the NLD and ourselves which will most likely decide the fate of their League season. Pass those tests with flying colours and they could very well make top 4. It's very important for them not to lose to ourselves as a loss gains us 3 points, whilst effectively taking a chance to reclaim 3 points on us from them.
Just one of United/City dropping points will be enough for Liverpool. They have reason to be confident, given the respective schedules.
Most of our defenders are injured and Blind's main position is CM. We don't have anyone who is as good as Pogba and Liverpool can manage without Lallana. Are Henderson, Mane, Lallana and Matip all missing at the same time in the same match? City would have fecked us like Chelsea scored 4 if we had gone on the attack the whole game. It's better to get a draw than lose 4-0 and get embarrassed by our biggest rival.
You over-simplify in what seems to be an attempt at being a smart-arse - please correct me if that is mistaken and I will apologise
We don't have the largest most expensive squad ever assembled so naturally injuries and absenteeism (AFCON) is going to affect us a lot more than a squad that has ample cover (most of the other Top 6 squads). Look at our bench vs Palace .... all youngsters ( average age of the bench last weekend was 19.2)!
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I quite agree, if that is all you had but is Rashford-Martial-Myki that weak ? I don't think so. And is Herrera-Fellaini-Carrick also weak ? Just because you were missing Pogba doesn't mean your midfield has becomne shite. Herrera and Carrick are two of the mainstays and Fellaini is generally strong and reliable even if his skillset isn't Pogba's. You can't denigrate Blind (who has played more for United in defence than Midfield since his arrival) since he helped keep a clean sheet and Valencia & Bailly are some of the best in their positions in the league. You are crying Wolf when in fact you had a strong team out regardless of injuries - it's why you have amongst the strongest (and certainly largest) squads in the PL.
Henderson, Lallana and Mane have all been missing at the same time for I think 3-4 matches now (since Everton), Matip is on/off with minor issues but will have missed matches when at least some of the others were, if not all of them (I'd need to check that to be sure and it's too late here for that), absent.
Utter nonsense. That's like saying Klopp has nothing to do with it if you do make it into top 4. Downplay a manager's importance all you want.
Yes because a manager scores and concedes goals due his individual errors. He may set up the team but once they are on the pitch managers can do little to influence the game (bar perhaps tactical changes at HT or subs) and naturally the result is now far more dependent on players playing well, or not, than anything the manager can do at that stage. It's hardly rocket science though you seem to have missed it.Utter nonsense. That's like saying Klopp has nothing to do with it if you do make it into top 4. Downplay a manager's importance all you want.
Which is why you can stick pretty much anyone in the manger job at a top club, and they'll do a similar job, right?
Jesus Christ. Yeah because that's exactly what I said didn't I ? fecking yaaawn.
Martial is low on confidence,Mkhi had a bad game and Rashford is 19. Herrera-Fellaini-Carrick can't do what Pogba does, replacing Pogba with Fellaini is like replacing a Ferrari with a Beetle. Blind struggles against teams which have pace and City have players like Sterling, Aguero and Sane.
I am not crying wolf and it wasn't all defence, defence and defence. There is something called counter-attacking football and any team can use it, it's not illegal. I am happy that we at least got a point away from home against a good team.
If we had Rojo and Pogba, I'm sure Jose would have told them to play more offensively. Liverpool can win even without Mane as they don't depend on him as much as we depend on Zlatan and Pogba.
You underestimate the influence managers have. I'll say no more because you're either too vacuous to listen, or too fecking argumentative to actually intelligently debate. So fecking tiresome.
And you are far too fond of your own opinion to even consider that others may have a point. What you clearly mean is that because someone has a differing viewpoint to you and will not accept your preaching as gospel then no debate is possible.
I agree, people that self-opinionated are impossible to debate with.
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Read up mate, I'm not the lad you're arguing with. I simply took offence to your tone/stubbornness, as anyone fecking would if they had to deal with you in a 'debate'.
Kentonio has a long history with Scousers so you are maybe the one that's needs to wind his head in on this one. He would argue the sky is yellow with pink spots if I said it's blue. But the 'how much can a manager affect a game in progress' is a long standing theoretical debate so it's not as if I'm espousing some nonsensical personal theory. Many managers claim after matches in which their team didn't perform to expectations that players 'didn't follow instructions' or other such excuses, so it's an interesting debate to have.
I'm sorry but those are just excuses, you had a very strong team out the fact Myki didn't play well, Rashford is 19 (so what ? He's PL experienced, has played in nerve-inducing top tournaments and is rightly highly rated - his age is irrelevant in terms of his ability) and Martial is 'low in confidence' ... doesn't negate their qualities !
Is Pogba now the be all and end all of United's midfield ? Of course not, Herrera-Fellaini-Carrick is still a very strong midfield. And again Blind helped keep a clean sheet yet you are still for some reason finding excuses for him that he doesn't require - strange.
Your 'counter attacking' led to 3 shots and one on target and that's unacceptable even for a counter-attacking team. United could have played a different system, been just as competitive and have had a far better chance of actually winning the match. I don't think many on RC would have agreed with you, pre-match, about being happy with a point. Many thought you'd win and I certainly thought it would be a far different, more even, game to the one we endured.
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I don't have a long history with Scousers, I just hate Liverpool FC. The two are not the same thing, hell I even dated a Scouser once upon a time.
Your argument here was just wrong though. You tried to wildly underplay the amount of influence a manager has over a team, and I'm willing to bet you did it purely because the subject was Jose. Today isn't the 1950's where the manager just sits on the bench smoking a fag. Modern sports is insanely technical, with manager and coaching team giving hugely detailed instructions about every facet of play, and the managers tweaking formations and tactics as required during the game.
You lot really should get over your Jose butthurt.
Seriously, can you not see why your posts are being picked apart?
You can't come on a United forum and lecture United fans about expectations and the strength of our 2nd string. The people you are lecturing have seen far more of United than you have.
Our second string isn't as strong as our first 11. The fact we have a squad to compensate for our injuries is thanks to Jose.
It's called management. Just because Klopp failed at this doesn't nullify the fact we have suffered just as many injuries as you have, injuries that clearly impacted our approach last Thursday night.
Did we expect to trouble their back 4? Yes.
Did we expect to keep a clean sheet? No.
Did we expect any of our midfielders to carry the ball? No.
Ill bring up some other expectations. The expectations of most of this forum and Liverpool fans that we'll have struggled at this point of the season. The games v Chelsea, Burnley and City have been brought up with glee v Liverpool fixtures yet here we are, better off than we were before we faced Chelsea.
It's your opinion to say that those are excuses. Rashford is playing his 3rd game as a striker this year, his game has to develop more and his decision making has to improve . Mkhi and Martial are out of form. Having the ability and having the form and confidence are different things. Even the players with the best of abilities have bad games sometimes. You still aren't understanding that we rely heavily on Pogba, no other player in our squad can do what he does. United have also played more games than City. The same defense let City get 2 goals the last time. If City had better finishing they could have easily scored 2-3 goals in this match. The City players got physical and basically took Rashford and Martial out of the game and that's why we have less shots. Most of the people here would prefer a draw than to lose by 3-4 goals and get humiliated. I guess you are still frustrated that we played defence, defence and defence and drew against Liverpool while you guys had 13 shots and 4 on target and still couldn't score more than 1 goal.
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He is arguing just for the sake of arguing and down playing the importance of 3 key players. He thinks United are still strong with Pogba, Zlatan and Rojo missing
. He is just frustrated that they couldn't beat us this year cause Jose "parked the bus".I remember an out of form United travelled to a rampant Liverpool side and kept them out for a point.He is arguing just for the sake of arguing and down playing the importance of 3 key players. He thinks United are still strong with Pogba, Zlatan and Rojo missing
Their fans were busy telling us they were happy with a point, how its only a good point for whoever wins their next game (they had a home banker, we were away to Chelsea ffs)
We're almost in May and if we win our game in hand we are that 1 Anfield point in front of them in fourth. Funny how it all works out.
I think you need Fergie back to show you what a top manager can do. Matter of fact, i think Liverpool fans miss him.
You do this all the time (final paragraph) - introduce comments and opinion that have nothing whatsoever to do with the post(er) you're quoting. As if somehow it strengthens your case rather than being what it is, a childish attempt to win 'points'.
I'm pretty sure I've seen more of United this season than half the board so I feel perfectly entitled to comment on United's team and squad ! Though of course I know very well (hello Cyberman) my posts will be attacked by some 'defending their honour against the Scouser', whilst others will actually silently agree. Anyone who can't see how strong the United team vs. City was is in denial. On the one hand you deny it is strong and on the other credit Jose for how good it is ! There is no Klopp vs Jose in this discussion because I wasn't debating Klopp - so why introduce him ? Obviously to obfuscate, as you love to do, by introducing as many irrelevant facts as possible to muddy the waters.
Did anyone say the team that played vs. City was as good as what you refer to as your '1st Team (string)' ? No I don't think so. But that doesn't mean it was weak, to the contrary .. it wasn't. Why not debate your tactics, and the performance' ?
Why on earth would you leave yourself open to ridicule with just 4-5 matches to go ? You may be right, however you may also well regret that post
Yes of course you remember the 1% rather than the 99% cursing the fact we didn't beat you when we were playing well and United were on the ropes.
Jesus. We were having a debate. This is just childish.He is arguing just for the sake of arguing and down playing the importance of 3 key players. He thinks United are still strong with Pogba, Zlatan and Rojo missing
Your personal reliance on Pogba is embarrassing (as is your excuse for not enough shots). No one player in United's squad defines how your team plays - or with the most expensive squad in history, shouldn't.
Your opinion only on how influential a manager can be ONCE THE MATCH HAS STARTED. Sorry, I felt the need to capitalise that, as clearly you are talking around and ignoring my qualifier. How often do we hear the refrain from managers "we can only do so much, once the match starts it's up to the players" .... which is my point about the effectiveness of managers in influencing a game when it's underway. They have limited opportunities to do so, which may or may not come too late.
I don't think Carrick-Fellaini-Herrera is a strong MF, Rafa. Probably do the job in a strong team vs. half the premier league but...
2/3 of them cannot get around the park quick & the old decent one of them can't get around at all really nowadays - he isn't getting on the ball as much now as he was either, fewer passes from him I'd think we're seeing. Fellaini can't pass at all obviously, but I don't suppose he's there for that. So also... 2 of the 3 are immediately sat in front of the back 4 as their role with the hope Fellaini might get up top occasionally at a set piece maybe.
After the main out ball threat to Rashford is reffed out of existence by feckwit Atkinson you can end up being rolled back or rolled back completely like the 2nd half, which was disappointing, there's no getting away from that. I suppose Martial & Mhiki must have worked hard defensively or we'd have seen Lingard earlier but that's all they were doing really for the last hour. We were lucky to get a point.
edit - this wasn't a 'Jose tactical masterclass'
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I understand that you want to qualify it now, as saying managers aren't important is just silly, but your new version doesn't actually make much sense with regards to the conversation. I said the Spurs match would be a perfect opportunity for Jose to do what he does best, and you said he doesn't matter because he's not out on the field. Which strongly suggests you don't accept that things like formations and tactics are a huge part of determining who wins football games.
Of course I know you do accept their importance, but at the same time you hate Jose for the humiliations he's heaped on Liverpool in the past. This has clearly led you to make strange statements that don't stand up to scrutiny. It's ok, we all have our faults.
I am carefully optimistic that Liverpool might actually drop points against Watford. If we do the job against Swansea, that obviously puts some more pressure on Liverpool, and could be a big step for us towards top 4. Still probably have to beat one of Arsenal/Spurs away mind, but we have done that before.
Saying a manager can do nothing once play has started grossly underestimates the importance of pre-match preparation, including positions, tactics and mentality to name but a few. All of which influence the likelihood of committing an individual error, or collectively as a team. It's well known that Mourinho takes his prep more seriously than Batman, and this no doubt has rewarded him on many occasions, just as he has got them wrong and put the team at a disadvantage too. Examples of success include doing a superb job at nullifying Liverpool at Anfield to the point where their offense was reduced to an insignificant whimper, a job on City yesterday, and a timely job on Chelsea at home- which many rushed to call a 'masterclass'.
Even during the course of a game a manager can subtly influence the proceedings by directing his players and giving instructions. Of course Half Time talks and Subs can have drastic impacts as they often represent a chance to add a new dimension to an aspect of a team, or go to 'Plan B, C etc.' Of course at the end of it, it comes down to the players to execute the game play and perform well, but saying Spurs will win because Mourinho isn't on the pitch is disingenuous to a squad of players that have kept clean sheets against some of the best attacking forces in the league, even at times where there were multiple injuries.
From a purely objective point of view, it's hard to see United beating Spurs away given their outstanding home record and that they are the better team. However let's not forget we have actually beaten Spurs (and kept a clean sheet), and our strong defence will definitely aid our chances. We shall have to wait and see as to what Jose brings out from his sleeve. But first, Swansea and Arsenal beckon. We shouldn't look too far ahead as United fans because these 2 games are more important.
Even during the course of a game a manager can subtly influence the proceedings by directing his players and giving instructions. Of course Half Time talks and Subs can have drastic impacts as they often represent a chance to add a new dimension to an aspect of a team, or go to 'Plan B, C etc.' Of course at the end of it, it comes down to the players to execute the game play and perform well, but saying Spurs will win because Mourinho isn't on the pitch is disingenuous to a squad of players that have kept clean sheets against some of the best attacking forces in the league, even at times where there were multiple injuries.
From a purely objective point of view, it's hard to see United beating Spurs away given their outstanding home record and that they are the better team. However let's not forget we have actually beaten Spurs (and kept a clean sheet), and our strong defence will definitely aid our chances. We shall have to wait and see as to what Jose brings out from his sleeve. But first, Swansea and Arsenal beckon. We shouldn't look too far ahead as United fans because these 2 games are more important.
You might be right. Swansea players are already at the beach whereas Watford are in serious threat of losing millions by being relegated.
I love how bus parking is being considered as genius. Utd fans and Jose are truly deserving of each other.