Transgender Athletes

[Spoony]

What if women's football becomes full of transgender folk. Would that improve the sport?

 

[arnie_ni]

I don't think anyone has changed gender to win at sports.

It's worth noting that if someone realises they're trans early, are given proper care and support and they're allowed to transition, should they wish to do so, then they wouldn't have an advantage or disadvantage, compared to those who identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. The changes that set men and women apart in terms of physical capability happen during puberty, and we have the means to alter how a body develops.

See, while I understand with what you're saying in relation to sports, there's no way i can get behind letting a child transition before puberty. They're far too young to make that decision, in medical terms imo. I mean you're talking what 10 or 11 years old

 

[Reditus]

It's worth noting that if someone realises they're trans early, are given proper care and support and they're allowed to transition, should they wish to do so, then they wouldn't have an advantage or disadvantage, compared to those who identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. The changes that set men and women apart in terms of physical capability happen during puberty, and we have the means to alter how a body develops.

Kids transitioning before puberty is a whole different subject. It’s a very tricky topic but I think one that would see far more backlash that anything happening in sport right now

 

[Halftrack]

See, while I understand with what you're saying in relation to sports, there's no way i can get behind letting a child transition before puberty. They're far too young to make that decision, in medical terms imo. I mean you're talking what 10 or 11 years old

There are physicians and mental health professionals involved. Puberty blockers are used to allow for more time to consider whether this is something they want to do, and to prevent any unwanted changes from taking place. It's completely safe and doesn't hinder development, and statistics tell us that it's a good and viable solution. These are not steps that are taken lightly, and it isn't done at the whims of a child.

Kids transitioning before puberty is a whole different subject. It’s a very tricky topic but I think one that would see far more backlash that anything happening in sport right now

It's undoubtedly a tricky and controversial topic, not least because of a continued effort to paint affirmative care with regards to children diagnosed with gender dysphoria as child abuse.

 

[sullydnl]

One of the difficulties in forming firm opinions on this issue is that both sides present their own "scientific evidence", which I am immediately inclined to mistrust simply due to constant toxicity around the debate.

Evidence on one side framed as proof that concerns are completed unfounded and fueled by transphobia, even though there are clearly legitimate and intuitive reasons to question whether some athletes are unfairly (and potentially dangerously) at a disadvantage compared to their competitors. And evidence on the other side cloaked in the implication (or outright assertion) that trans athletes are deviously and deliberately transitioning just so they can win sporting events, or bully women, often accompanied with a completely unneccesary misgendering of the athlete involved.

All of this really infomed by the fact that most of this debate seems to take place on social media, where the worst people in the world go to share their opinion.

 

[VorZakone]

There are physicians and mental health professionals involved. Puberty blockers are used to allow for more time to consider whether this is something they want to do, and to prevent any unwanted changes from taking place. It's completely safe and doesn't hinder development, and statistics tell us that it's a good and viable solution. These are not steps that are taken lightly, and it isn't done at the whims of a child.

It's undoubtedly a tricky and controversial topic, not least because of a continued effort to paint affirmative care with regards to children diagnosed with gender dysphoria as child abuse.

I don't think anybody is doubting the medical ops themselves but rather the decision-making of a child. What do you mean "isn't done at the whims of a child"?

 

[arnie_ni]

There are physicians and mental health professionals involved. Puberty blockers are used to allow for more time to consider whether this is something they want to do, and to prevent any unwanted changes from taking place. It's completely safe and doesn't hinder development, and statistics tell us that it's a good and viable solution. These are not steps that are taken lightly, and it isn't done at the whims of a child.

It's undoubtedly a tricky and controversial topic, not least because of a continued effort to paint affirmative care with regards to children diagnosed with gender dysphoria as child abuse.

I'm sure it is a good a viable solution but at the end of the day it's a child and I'm not sure a 10 or 11 year old should be making massive medical decisions about what sex they want to be.

And I appreciate that could make their teen years suck, putting it lightly, but me personally, I'm not comfortable with someone so young making such a lift altering decision.

 

[Halftrack]

What do you mean "isn't done at the whims of a child"?

It's not done because a boy says "I'm a girl", there's a years long process involving physicians and mental health professionals before it ever gets to the point where one would consider medical transition. Many children do desist and go on to identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. The goal isn't to make children trans, it's to identify those who are early and allow them the treatment that will allow the to be comfortable with themselves and lead happy lives, hopefully preventing years of suffering and anguish. If gender dysphoria persist into puberty (or into the years where one would enter puberty if on blockers) it's very likely to be permanent.

And to add, most places don't allow actual surgeries before they reach age of majority.

I'm sure it is a good a viable solution but at the end of the day it's a child and I'm not sure a 10 or 11 year old should be making massive medical decisions about what sex they want to be.

And I appreciate that could make their teen years suck, putting it lightly, but me personally, I'm not comfortable with someone so young making such a lift altering decision.

Not only their teen years, potentially significant parts of the rest of their lives.

I won't claim to know all the answers, I'm merely pointing to an available solution. I trust the professionals to know how best to go about it.

 

[crappycraperson]

I wish folks who do support trans atheletes participating in their identified gender would just start advocating for removing women tiers from most sports and make it gender neutral. I say so because this is where this is all heading. One hasn't even begun to look at the conundrum non binary people would pose. Theoretically they despite having being born as a male may want to compete in women's sports if atheletically they identified as a female. If one doesn't want to disadvantage non binary folks then you can't ask them to adhere to regulations around hormonal therapy either.

 

[NotThatSoph]

I don't think anybody is doubting the medical ops themselves but rather the decision-making of a child. What do you mean "isn't done at the whims of a child"?

Not sure what you mean by medical ops, but no children are getting operated on. We are talking about puberty blockers here. They delay puberty, that's it.

And by not done on the whims of a child, I assume they mean that it's not like a child can just decide that they're trans and go to get pills. We're talking about both professional therapy and social transitioning over a prolonged period of time.

 

[Rektsanwalt]

2 categories in sports: predominantly biological male and predominantly biological female, based on a transparent categorization that's based on the newest science
alternative is an additional gender neutral class imo

 

[arnie_ni]

It's not done because a boy says "I'm a girl", there's a years long process involving physicians and mental health professionals before it ever gets to the point where one would consider medical transition. Many children do desist and go on to identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. The goal isn't to make children trans, it's to identify those who are early and allow them the treatment that will allow the to be comfortable with themselves and lead happy lives, hopefully preventing years of suffering and anguish. If gender dysphoria persist into puberty (or into the years where one would enter puberty if on blockers) it's very likely to be permanent.

And to add, most places don't allow actual surgeries before they reach age of majority.

Not only their teen years, potentially significant parts of the rest of their lives.

I won't claim to know all the answers, I'm merely pointing to an available solution. I trust the professionals to know how best to go about it.

I definitely don't have the answers either that's for sure.

My wife works with a woman and her daughters best friend was born a boy but identifies a girl, she's 1st year in secondary school here in NI which I think is 11.

The kid has only just be allowed a mobile phone for example. I just don't know how you can honestly allow that kid to begin whatever it takes to transition.

My wife has no doubt the kid will eventually but at that age, I just wouldn't ever be able to wrap my head around it. Il

 

[JohnZSmith27]

See, while I understand with what you're saying in relation to sports, there's no way i can get behind letting a child transition before puberty. They're far too young to make that decision, in medical terms imo. I mean you're talking what 10 or 11 years old

It's a weird one. Must be very difficult for the parents of these kids. Like I understand wanting to pause puberty if it helps the child figure themselves out. But theres studies to suggest the majority of dysphoric kids will indentify with their biological sex if left to pass through puberty normally. Whereas the overwhelming majority who take puberty blockers will go on to take opposite sex hormones according to that tavistock report. Plus although we hope it's completely safe, the long term studies are scarce at best.

It's quite the minefield. With regards to sports, I would agree if you've gone through male puberty you should not be competing in the women's category.

 

[Roane]

Not sure if right place to write/ask this.

But heard about the female jockey who won a big event recently. Not really a horse racing fan so know very little.

Would horse racing be a sport where gender isn't a big issue? Wouldn't it maybe favour women due to the whole size and weight issues?

If so why haven't more women won bigger events in horse racing?

NB: totally out of my depth with horse racing so sorry if it's a daft question.

 

[Carolina Red]

Not sure if right place to write/ask this.

But heard about the female jockey who won a big event recently. Not really a horse racing fan so know very little.

Would horse racing be a sport where gender isn't a big issue? Wouldn't it maybe favour women due to the whole size and weight issues?

If so why haven't more women won bigger events in horse racing?

NB: totally out of my depth with horse racing so sorry if it's a daft question.

With the jockey, gender disparities are very small to basically non-existant, it would seem.
https://horsenetwork.com/2021/06/jockey-gender-isnt-an-advantage-in-racing-finds-economic-study/

With the horse, however… only 3 fillies have ever won the Kentucky Derby in its 146 year history.

 

[arnie_ni]

Not sure if right place to write/ask this.

But heard about the female jockey who won a big event recently. Not really a horse racing fan so know very little.

Would horse racing be a sport where gender isn't a big issue? Wouldn't it maybe favour women due to the whole size and weight issues?

If so why haven't more women won bigger events in horse racing?

NB: totally out of my depth with horse racing so sorry if it's a daft question.

As a novice the horse is the most important aspect and to my knowledge not many female horses (mare?) have won much of anything.

 

[arnie_ni]

With the jockey, gender disparities are very small to basically non-existant, it would seem.
https://horsenetwork.com/2021/06/jockey-gender-isnt-an-advantage-in-racing-finds-economic-study/

With the horse, however… only 3 fillies have ever won the Kentucky Derby in its 146 year history.

As a novice the horse is the most important aspect and to my knowledge not many female horses (mare?) have won much of anything.

Better explained than I did

 

[Grylte]

It's a weird one. Must be very difficult for the parents of these kids. Like I understand wanting to pause puberty if it helps the child figure themselves out. But theres studies to suggest the majority of dysphoric kids will indentify with their biological sex if left to pass through puberty normally. Whereas the overwhelming majority who take puberty blockers will go on to take opposite sex hormones according to that tavistock report. Plus although we hope it's completely safe, the long term studies are scarce at best.

The thing is.... kids wouldn't even know this was a thing if it wasn't written so much about in media/social media. Sure, they might feel different, i have no clue, but you don't know how others feel, so you have noone to compare with.
I always felt different to people around me, nothing related to this subject at all, but i didn't know how others were thinking, maybe they were thinking the same? So i didn't talk to anyone about it, got my little diagnosis last year, so now i know, and things make sense. Seeing tweets posted on Reddit (i know, it's always the worst that are linked there, but those people are real anyway) where people talk about their kids' genders, kids under 10, and giving them blockers, is disgusting.

Let kids grow up and then figure shit out, you don't have to wear blue if you're a boy and pink if you're a girl!

 

[Acheron]

Not sure if right place to write/ask this.

But heard about the female jockey who won a big event recently. Not really a horse racing fan so know very little.

Would horse racing be a sport where gender isn't a big issue? Wouldn't it maybe favour women due to the whole size and weight issues?

If so why haven't more women won bigger events in horse racing?

NB: totally out of my depth with horse racing so sorry if it's a daft question.

Maybe it's something like car racing or motorsports in general.

 

[R'hllor]

This topic always reminds me of Bill Burr.

 

[Ajr]

This topic always reminds me of Bill Burr.

This topic I wish would just stop being brought up

 

[Halftrack]

I definitely don't have the answers either that's for sure.

My wife works with a woman and her daughters best friend was born a boy but identifies a girl, she's 1st year in secondary school here in NI which I think is 11.

The kid has only just be allowed a mobile phone for example. I just don't know how you can honestly allow that kid to begin whatever it takes to transition.

My wife has no doubt the kid will eventually but at that age, I just wouldn't ever be able to wrap my head around it. Il

We're talking about making irreversible changes to a person, so I can definitely understand why some would be uncomfortable with it as an alternative.

The thing is.... kids wouldn't even know this was a thing if it wasn't written so much about in media/social media. Sure, they might feel different, i have no clue, but you don't know how others feel, so you have noone to compare with.
I always felt different to people around me, nothing related to this subject at all, but i didn't know how others were thinking, maybe they were thinking the same? So i didn't talk to anyone about it, got my little diagnosis last year, so now i know, and things make sense. Seeing tweets posted on Reddit (i know, it's always the worst that are linked there, but those people are real anyway) where people talk about their kids' genders, kids under 10, and giving them blockers, is disgusting.

Let kids grow up and then figure shit out, you don't have to wear blue if you're a boy and pink if you're a girl!

Disgusting? What's disgusting about it?

Kids generally learn to differentiate between genders before they're 2 years old, and become aware of their own gender before they're 3. Gender dysphoria can set in as early as age 4-5. I doubt these kids do a lot of reading on the topic. Are there those, among the somewhat older, who might decide they're trans because they want to be special? Probably, but that's why there should be professionals involved. Are there parents who might want their kid to be trans to be special? I don't know, I hope not, but Münchhausen-by-proxy is a thing, so I'm sure they exist. But again, that's why professionals should be involved.

"Let kids grow up and figure things out" is terrible advice, as a huge portion of them suffer a great deal of distress as a result of the mismatch between their assigned and perceived genders. If a kid keeps insisting that they're the opposite gender, you should get in touch with professionals who can help them. Even if you're opposed to prescribing them puberty blockers and hormones, then at the very least let them talk to a professional who can help them sort through their thoughts and feelings, and if they do suffer from gender dysphoria, let them socially transition. If that helps them and resolves their dysphoria, or at least alleviates it, maybe consider actually allowing blockers and later hormones, so that puberty doesn't make irreversible changes that may bother them for the rest of their lives or might require expensive surgeries to fix.

 

[Matthew84!]

We're talking about making irreversible changes to a person, so I can definitely understand why some would be uncomfortable with it as an alternative.


Disgusting? What's disgusting about it?

Kids generally learn to differentiate between genders before they're 2 years old, and become aware of their own gender before they're 3. Gender dysphoria can set in as early as age 4-5. I doubt these kids do a lot of reading on the topic. Are there those, among the somewhat older, who might decide they're trans because they want to be special? Probably, but that's why there should be professionals involved. Are there parents who might want their kid to be trans to be special? I don't know, I hope not, but Münchhausen-by-proxy is a thing, so I'm sure they exist. But again, that's why professionals should be involved.

"Let kids grow up and figure things out" is terrible advice, as a huge portion of them suffer a great deal of distress as a result of the mismatch between their assigned and perceived genders. If a kid keeps insisting that they're the opposite gender, you should get in touch with professionals who can help them. Even if you're opposed to prescribing them puberty blockers and hormones, then at the very least let them talk to a professional who can help them sort through their thoughts and feelings, and if they do suffer from gender dysphoria, let them socially transition. If that helps them and resolves their dysphoria, or at least alleviates it, maybe consider actually allowing blockers and later hormones, so that puberty doesn't make irreversible changes that may bother them for the rest of their lives or might require expensive surgeries to fix.

This is the biggest pile of shit I've ever read, must be a joke!

 

[Halftrack]

This is the biggest pile of shit I've ever read, must be a joke!

Really now. Why, if I may ask?

edit: like really, what the feck is objectionable about suggesting people should get help they need, from professionals at that? Is it preferable we leave them to suffer in silence, so that you lot don't have to be disgusted at the idea that they exist?

 

[maniak]

I don't know the answer to this as it's certainly a very complex issue. What annoys me though is seeing people (I'm not talking about anyone here) who don't give two fecks about women's sports suddenly outraged women's sports are being ruined. So much transphobia disguised as concern makes it almost impossible to discuss this seriously in society at large.

 

[VorZakone]

I don't know the answer to this as it's certainly a very complex issue. What annoys me though is seeing people (I'm not talking about anyone here) who don't give two fecks about women's sports suddenly outraged women's sports are being ruined. So much transphobia disguised as concern makes it almost impossible to discuss this seriously in society at large.

Weird argument. There's many things people don't have to care about as a hobby or interest but still feel it's necessary to call out something they deem unjust or unfair.

 

[Halftrack]

Weird argument. There's many things people don't have to care about as a hobby or interest but still feel it's necessary to call out something they deem unjust or unfair.

Nothing weird about it, just replace "don't give two fecks about women's sports" with "treats women's sports as a punchline" and it might make more sense.

 

[maniak]

Weird argument. There's many things people don't have to care about as a hobby or interest but still feel it's necessary to call out something they deem unjust or unfair.

I mustn't have explained myself well. Some people who are only interested in attacking transgender women and couldn't care less about women's sports presenting themselves as defenders of women's sports leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You see a lot of "oh no I'm not transphobic, I just care about women's sports being fair, that's all" when it's obviously not the case.

 

[Acheron]

I mustn't have explained myself well. Some people who are only interested in attacking transgender women and couldn't care less about women's sports presenting themselves as defenders of women's sports leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You see a lot of "oh no I'm not transphobic, I just care about women's sports being fair, that's all" when it's obviously not the case.

In this type of issues and controversy the ones more affected aren't very open about it, presumably out of fear of being labelled as transphobic or something similar. Like in the case of Lia Thomas swimming for Penn some of her very own team mates are against it and send a letter unsigned. So the issue has become very sensitive and political when it should be more focused on the athletics and factual evidence.

The very nature of competitive sports at the highest level is not precisely inclusive and the female athletes and their families have every right to be against the inclusion of transgender female. Like even if Lia Thomas won all her events people aren't going to recognize her as the fastest female but the girl who came in second.

 

[NotThatSoph]

The thing is.... kids wouldn't even know this was a thing if it wasn't written so much about in media/social media. Sure, they might feel different, i have no clue, but you don't know how others feel, so you have noone to compare with.
I always felt different to people around me, nothing related to this subject at all, but i didn't know how others were thinking, maybe they were thinking the same? So i didn't talk to anyone about it, got my little diagnosis last year, so now i know, and things make sense. Seeing tweets posted on Reddit (i know, it's always the worst that are linked there, but those people are real anyway) where people talk about their kids' genders, kids under 10, and giving them blockers, is disgusting.

Let kids grow up and then figure shit out, you don't have to wear blue if you're a boy and pink if you're a girl!

Why wouldn't they? Research shows that kids are aware of their gender identity very early, not sure why you would know better.

I have to be honest, this looks identical to the people saying that kids wouldn't know anything about being attracted to kidsof the same gender if society didn't push the notion, ignoring the fact that they're also constantly talking about being attracted to kids of the opposite gender.

 

[LDUred]

It is, of course, a complete joke.

Regardless of whether Lia Thomas wins races or doesn't, biological born men and women should not be competing against each other.

That might sound like a circular argument, but there are clear biological differences between men and women that make it unfair for someone born with XY chromosomes to be competing with those born with XX.

If you take any discipline, natal men lift heavier, run faster, tire less, jump higher and recover quicker than natal females. The differentials are particularly marked in strength, where men can lift nearly a quarter more than females, on average.

So if you have a situation where natal males are competing against natal females in rugby, it could result in serious injury.

This may result in nothing so serious on the surface, but it may lead to more women taking performance-enhancing drugs. Imagine a young woman comparing her shoulders to Lia Thomas's and setting that as her goal. There is no way that she would get there just by staying natty.

It's wrong and it's absolutely stupid on every level to let this happen.

 

[NotThatSoph]

#554 to #1...

"A Look At the Numbers and Times: No Denying the Advantages of Lia Thomas

Just how much of an advantage does Lia Thomas possesses over biological females? The numbers paint a clear picture. The fact that the University of Pennsylvania swimmer has soared from a mid-500s ranking (554th in the 200 freestyle) in men’s competition to the top-ranked swimmer in women’s competition tells the story of the unfairness which is unfolding at the NCAA level."

https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.c...imes-no-denying-the-advantages-of-lia-thomas/

I have no idea how Thomas has done pre or post transitioning, but 500m and 200m freestyle are quite different. Saying that she went from 554 to 1 makes no sense.

 

[WI_Red]

Really now. Why, if I may ask?

edit: like really, what the feck is objectionable about suggesting people should get help they need, from professionals at that? Is it preferable we leave them to suffer in silence, so that you lot don't have to be disgusted at the idea that they exist?

I think it was an excellent post. I have family who are child psychologists and they have said many of the same things regarding the need for children/young adults to talk through these and other emotional issues things with professionals.

I hope @Matthew84! responds.

 

[Carolina Red]

I have no idea how Thomas has done pre or post transitioning, but 500m and 200m freestyle are quite different. Saying that she went from 554 to 1 makes no sense.

Thomas was ranked #554 as a male in the 200 and then went to being ranked #1 as a female in the 200 going into the NCAA finals. It literally says that in the article.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Thomas was ranked #554 as a male in the 200 and then went to being ranked #1 as a female in the 200 going into the NCAA finals. It literally says that in the article.

Sorry, I didn't realize you were talking about pre tournament seasonal bests. She ended up more than two seconds behind the winner, and would've finished third if she matched her best race.

It looks like the US swim team isn't at their best, though. Thomas would've won a narrow victory last year, before that we have to go back to 2013. Katie Ledecky did compete for a bit, which isn't quite fair, but even without her the winning times have been around 4:31, two seconds faster than Thomas.

 

[Carolina Red]

Sorry, I didn't realize you were talking about pre tournament seasonal bests. She ended up more than two seconds behind the winner, and would've finished third if she matched her best race.

It looks like the US swim team isn't at their best, though. Thomas would've won a narrow victory last year, before that we have to go back to 2013. Katie Ledecky did compete for a bit, which isn't quite fair, but even without her the winning times have been around 4:31, two seconds faster than Thomas.

Thomas still finished 5th in the country in the 200… that’s 549 places higher than the expected finish against men and also knocked someone else off the podium and kept them from being an All-American in that event.

 

[Acheron]

I have no idea how Thomas has done pre or post transitioning, but 500m and 200m freestyle are quite different. Saying that she went from 554 to 1 makes no sense.

It states the event where the 554th place was in the 200 freestyle in the men's category. She already raced the 200 freestyle (I think it's yards) and while not winning the event she still placed 5th which is still a clear huge improvement. Overall she's doing a lot a better in the women category and from the times where she used to compete as a male the 200 freestyle isn't event her best event as she was doing a lot better in longer distances.

Thomas still finished 5th in the country in the 200… that’s 549 places higher than the expected finish against men and also knocked someone else off the podium and kept them from being an All-American in that event.

Yup, the fact that she's making into the finals means she's already displacing every girl that finishes below her.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Thomas still finished 5th in the country in the 200… that’s 549 places higher than the expected finish against men and also knocked someone else off the podium and kept them from being an All-American in that event.

"Expected finish" is a bit of a weird term. She was #554 in what year, 2018 at the latest? At what events, competing against who and at what age? Not even including the fact that people progress at different rates (as a Norwegian, a poignant example is that in biathlon Vetle Sjåstad Christiansen used to dominate Johannes Thingnes Bø as a junior, while JTB went on to become probably the best ever, but that will mean nothing to anyone else), the 2022 winning time was 1.41.12 while it was 1.39.80 in 2018.

Even if Thomas has a physical advantage, the fact that she was supposedly ranked 554 4+ years ago does not mean that she would be expected to finish at 554 today. These are clickbait numbers.

 

[Penna]

If a person has gone through male puberty, grown up to young adulthood as a man and been competitive in a sport as a man, the advantage is already there. Even a man's hand size will be an advantage in swimming, and that's not going to change after transitioning. If I were a female transgender athlete, I would like to think I would recognise that when it comes to individual sport, and be gracious.

I know that you can have born-women who are over 6ft tall and built strongly, but that's a different thing (much like tall people tend to be better at basketball).

 

[VorZakone]

"Expected finish" is a bit of a weird term. She was #554 in what year, 2018 at the latest? At what events, competing against who and at what age? Not even including the fact that people progress at different rates (as a Norwegian, a poignant example is that in biathlon Vetle Sjåstad Christiansen used to dominate Johannes Thingnes Bø as a junior, while JTB went on to become probably the best ever, but that will mean nothing to anyone else), the 2022 winning time was 1.41.12 while it was 1.39.80 in 2018.

Even if Thomas has a physical advantage, the fact that she was supposedly ranked 554 4+ years ago does not mean that she would be expected to finish at 554 today. These are clickbait numbers.

Do you feel that a mountain is being made out of a molehill regarding Lia Thomas?