Transgender Athletes

Shamwow said:
Again the phrasing was in response to someone trying to guilt trip me over the idea of some poor kid who gets to do the sport they love as a career, is supported in it 100% by their family who can afford to do so, and then comes second unfairly? It's not great for them but on the scale of things they have still done alright.
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I disagreed with your phrasing and don't agree here either.

Some sports maybe about wealthy parents etc but often it isn't about luck or wealth just dedication from parents.

As I said I was into cricket but I wasn't from a well of family. Cricket wasn't cheap and my bats were often second hand or bought from Pakistan as it was cheaper than paying £100 here.

I forget the cricketers name just now but he went pro. Yet his dad had literally made a small practice pitch in the garden and would just bowl at him for practise. Asian kid played for England briefly.

It's hard work and dedication and having to go without and hours of practice.
 
Shamwow said:
Yes I realise that but the debate is being done in much more broad strokes (male/female) and the capability differences haven't clearly manifested themselves in competitive sport yet aside from a very small number of outliers at this point.
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An on average 40% muscle mass difference being brought down to 28-35% over 1-3 years of hormone therapy is pretty clear.

And why exactly shouldn’t handicapped athletes just be happy with coming in 2nd to non-handicapped ones if that’s what biological women are supposed to do in your vision of sports?
 
Roane said:
I disagreed with your phrasing and don't agree here either.

Some sports maybe about wealthy parents etc but often it isn't about luck or wealth just dedication from parents.

As I said I was into cricket but I wasn't from a well of family. Cricket wasn't cheap and my bats were often second hand or bought from Pakistan as it was cheaper than paying £100 here.

I forget the cricketers name just now but he went pro. Yet his dad had literally made a small practice pitch in the garden and would just bowl at him for practise. Asian kid played for England briefly.

It's hard work and dedication and having to go without and hours of practice.
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You need luck in having the physical characteristics for professional sport and maybe the particular one you want to play.

Having dedicated parents is lucky. Many kids don't get that. Many kids parents don't have the time.

Thats why I brought up my own experience of having a stroke as a teenager. I worked hard for stuff, but it was being able to walk again, catch up with the studies I'd missed while I was in hospital etc. We all make sacrifices. If yours are getting you silver medals then you're really not doing that bad.

But of course bringing that up was wrong of me and I deserved all the insults I got for it.
 
Carolina Red said:
An on average 40% muscle mass difference being brought down to 28-35% over 1-3 years of hormone therapy is pretty clear.

And why exactly shouldn’t handicapped athletes just be happy with coming in 2nd to non-handicapped ones if that’s what biological women are supposed to do in your vision of sports?
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Or the other way round. Going off tangent here but I remember a sketch by the American stand up Katt Williams about "poor little tink tink". Not sure if it was in relation to Oscar pistorios before his sentence.

Basically he won a few races and was disqualified for having an unfair advantage against men with legs and feet.
 
Roane said:
Or the other way round. Going off tangent here but I remember a sketch by the American stand up Katt Williams about "poor little tink tink". Not sure if it was in relation to Oscar pistorios before his sentence.

Basically he won a few races and was disqualified for having an unfair advantage against men with legs and feet.
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It was Pistorius indeed.
 
Shamwow said:
You need luck in having the physical characteristics for professional sport and maybe the particular one you want to play.

Having dedicated parents is lucky. Many kids don't get that. Many kids parents don't have the time.

Thats why I brought up my own experience of having a stroke as a teenager. I worked hard for stuff, but it was being able to walk again, catch up with the studies I'd missed while I was in hospital etc. We all make sacrifices. If yours are getting you silver medals then you're really not doing that bad.

But of course bringing that up was wrong of me and I deserved all the insults I got for it.
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Luck isn't a big factor often times as you seem to suggest. Sure if you want to be a basketball player but only grow to 5'4 the yeah unlucky. Or say a sport like golf maybe about money.

The average kid in neighbourhoods like where I grew up don't have the money or parents with a lot of time. But many have gone on to do good things with support and sacrifice.

I've known personally guys like Imran sherwani and his winning medals with England men's hockey. His dad had a newsagents but made sacrifices for his son. Hockey wasn't even big around our ways.

Footballers come from deprived backgrounds. Likes of Robbie Earle and Garth crooks didn't have wealthy parents and faced other barriers like discrimination. Heck even Robbie Williams was not from a wealthy background.

By the way I lost my mum a couple of months back to a stroke so I wouldn't find anything funny about knocking that.
 
Carolina Red said:
An on average 40% muscle mass difference being brought down to 28-35% over 1-3 years of hormone therapy is pretty clear.

And why exactly shouldn’t handicapped athletes just be happy with coming in 2nd to non-handicapped ones if that’s what biological women are supposed to do in your vision of sports?
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Your comparison is flawed though, you'd have to compare a person born with a handicap with a person who acquired one after say puberty for arguments sake.

And youre already using averages to make broad divisions rather than looking at individual capability.
 
Roane said:
Or the other way round. Going off tangent here but I remember a sketch by the American stand up Katt Williams about "poor little tink tink". Not sure if it was in relation to Oscar pistorios before his sentence.

Basically he won a few races and was disqualified for having an unfair advantage against men with legs and feet.
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And eventually came 8th in the Olympics. A fair few handicapped people have competed, I seem to remember a legally blind person winning either shooting or archery recently.
 
Shamwow said:
No the ableism came from the disgusting response I got from revealing that I had a stroke when I was young which stopped me from having the priviliged life of a young athlete being fully supported in their goals and dreams by their financially capable family. Apparently I should feel sorry for people like that if they don't get a gold medal. I'd be happy with just qualifying.
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Got you. I didn't think that could be what you were saying.

There is nothing wrong with just competing. It is what the vast majority do and that is the main power of sport. However, elite athletes are a very different case. Many have dedicated their entire life to win an Olympic medal. Whatever the solution it isn't conscionable to not consider the rights of these athletes. Luckily the number of real issues are few at the moment so perhaps we have time to get a carefully considered and nuanced solution.

I'm not labelling everyone that but people who say transwomen are just men who want to become women or similar are definite transphobes and there is a clear element of fearmongering which is obviously a red flag when talking about any minority.
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It is a very complex and nuanced issue and I know I'm not fully across it despite having a trans nephew which has given me some insight but not that much more than most and less than many. In the case of sport trans and intersex (and all other cases of the acronym) are somewhat different but seem to be constantly conflated which gets worse when simplicity one size fits all solutions are sought because it tends to ignores the rights of cis, trans or intersex athletes.
 
Shamwow said:
Your comparison is flawed though, you'd have to compare a person born with a handicap with a person who acquired one after say puberty for arguments sake.

And youre already using averages to make broad divisions rather than looking at individual capability.
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So the person in wheelchair tennis that was born without legs vs the one who lost them in an accident. Right.

But still, shouldn’t they be happy with 2nd to a person with legs?

Finally, I’m not using averages. Medical scientists are using averages to see how trans athletes would impact sports. Those stats came from a peer reviewed study I posted many pages ago.
 
Roane said:
Luck isn't a big factor often times as you seem to suggest. Sure if you want to be a basketball player but only grow to 5'4 the yeah unlucky. Or say a sport like golf maybe about money.

The average kid in neighbourhoods like where I grew up don't have the money or parents with a lot of time. But many have gone on to do good things with support and sacrifice.

I've known personally guys like Imran sherwani and his winning medals with England men's hockey. His dad had a newsagents but made sacrifices for his son. Hockey wasn't even big around our ways.

Footballers come from deprived backgrounds. Likes of Robbie Earle and Garth crooks didn't have wealthy parents and faced other barriers like discrimination. Heck even Robbie Williams was not from a wealthy background.

By the way I lost my mum a couple of months back to a stroke so I wouldn't find anything funny about knocking that.
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It wasn't you mate you've been alright even though we strongly disagree. Just those other bastards who thought it was a good idea to take the piss out of it. Really sorry to hear about your mum.

Personally I think being identified as good at a sport at a young age and then being given the support required to make it into a career is quite lucky as it doesn't happen for most people.
 
Carolina Red said:
So the person in wheelchair tennis that was born without legs vs the one who lost them in an accident. Right.

But still, shouldn’t they be happy with 2nd to a person with legs?
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They probably would be. I'm not sure how much fun the person with legs would have though. I'm not sure this comparison is as strong as you think it is.
 
Shamwow said:
They probably would be. I'm not sure how much fun the person with legs would have though. I'm not sure this comparison is as strong as you think it is.
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Probably would be my ass :lol: there’s a reason separate leagues & Olympics exist. So they have a level playing field.

You really don’t get it when it comes to what it means to be a competitor.
 
Carolina Red said:
Probably would be my ass :lol: there’s a reason separate leagues & Olympics exist. So they have a level playing field.

You really don’t get it when it comes to what it means to be a competitor.
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I actually thought it was for inclusiveness as the Olympics existed before the Paralympics.

Back to the personal stuff. Cool mod.
 
Shamwow said:
Disabled sports are much more broken down by classification though to ensure inclusivity. And those classifications are more focused on the capabilities of the individual rather than how the trans issue is being approached right now.
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Although disabled sport is separated from able bodied sport. The discussion here is about trans/intersex athletes potentially getting an unfair advantage when competing against CIS female athletes. There are very few cases so hysteria isn't needed but I think we do need to consider far more carefully how to proceed that considers everyone's rights. As I've also said earlier I'm also very uncomfortable with sporting regulators dictating medical treatments as a condition of sport even though I also recognise that they are trying to balance trans/intersex people's rights with CIS people's rights.
 
Are able bodied cis people just not capable of letting other people have more rights for once? This entire world is built and run for you lot. Is it really that unconscionable that elite athletes have to make some compromises for the sake of inclusion?
 
Shamwow said:
You need luck in having the physical characteristics for professional sport and maybe the particular one you want to play.

Having dedicated parents is lucky. Many kids don't get that. Many kids parents don't have the time.

Thats why I brought up my own experience of having a stroke as a teenager. I worked hard for stuff, but it was being able to walk again, catch up with the studies I'd missed while I was in hospital etc. We all make sacrifices. If yours are getting you silver medals then you're really not doing that bad.

But of course bringing that up was wrong of me and I deserved all the insults I got for it.
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Your stroke was a tragedy, it wasn't a conscious decision. You never choose to get one, or the other kid never choose to be rich or poor (if they can choose, they'll choose rich)

But being a transgender is something you can choose.
 
Shamwow said:
I actually thought it was for inclusiveness as the Olympics existed before the Paralympics.

Back to the personal stuff. Cool mod.
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Yes, when your posts frequently display a complete lack of understanding of something, that is fair game to point out.

And if setting up a separate Olympics for handicapped people = inclusiveness, then setting up a separate Olympics for biological women also = inclusiveness. Well done!
 
Sky1981 said:
Your stroke was a tragedy, it wasn't a conscious decision. You never choose to get one, or the other kid never choose to be rich or poor (if they can choose, they'll choose rich)

But being a transgender is something you can choose.
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Hard disagree.
 
Shamwow said:
Are able bodied cis people just not capable of letting other people have more rights for once? This entire world is built and run for you lot. Is it really that unconscionable that elite athletes have to make some compromises for the sake of inclusion?
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Then hwy don't they compete in Male class, and enjoy being 2nd or 3rd or forever not gonna win this.

because, hey... it's all about compromise isn't it? who cares about winning

They have all the rights to compete, just not the right to compete in that particular class.
 
@Shamwow for the love of god - shut the F up. This was an interesting thread full of nuanced debate, full of opinions I disagreed with but at least the focus was on the merit of the arguments and you have turned it into a shitfest.

No one cares about the stroke you had. I broke my arm in 2001 - doesn’t provide a valid excuse to act like a cnut for 50 odd consecutive posts.
 
Sky1981 said:
But being a transgender is something you can choose.
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I would argue against that. I would err to the side that being psychologically transgender is something you are born as, the same as being homosexual. The physical transition going along with it would be the choice.
 
Raees said:
@Shamwow for the love of god - shut the F up. This was an interesting thread full of nuanced debate, full of opinions I disagreed with but at least the focus was on the merit of the arguments and you have turned it into a shitfest.

No one cares about the stroke you had. I broke my arm in 2001 - doesn’t provide a valid excuse to act like a cnut for 50 odd consecutive posts.
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It would if it was something as traumatic as a stroke and people insulted you for it repeatedly but whatever.
 
Sky1981 said:
To the very least choosing where you compete if an option.
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I’m speaking specifically about the psychological element of being transgender. I don’t believe that is a choice. Maybe you were just referring to the physical transition element of it.
 
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Carolina Red said:
You mean like how the set up separate leagues for biological females and the handicapped?

I mean.. seriously.
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Yeah it's fine as long as you don't lose out at all as an able bodied cis gendered person.
 
Shamwow said:
Well done, which one? Do you consider yourself lucky to have the potential in the first place to achieve that? Because I do.
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No I do not. I consider it the product of a helluva lot of hard work.

By the way… the 2nd place medal is the most often thrown away medal in the sport of wrestling. No competitor wants to finish 2nd.
 
Carolina Red said:
No I do not. I consider it the product of a helluva lot of hard work.
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See therein lies the blindness to your privilege. You have a body and brain capable of achieving what you achieved and not everyone does in the first place.

Many people work just as hard for much less.
 
Carolina Red said:
Wrestling, baseball, football. Have coached male and female wrestling for over 10 years now.
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Cool, I don't think anyone needs to have first hand experience into competitive sports to perceive they very tangible differences in physical performances between the male and female sex. Then it might not be so obvious to some folks how competitive athletes are and if we're talking about the top athletes then it's a essential requirement to be super competitive and sometimes even agressive and being a bad loser is what it takes to excel.

So yeah athletes are going to be frisky at the very least if a situation they perceive as unfair is presented to them within their sport. I remember the olympics in Rio when a lot of swimmers where having digs at Yulia Efimova every time they had a chance as she had because of her doping scandal. With transgender athletes they would be more vocal if it wasn't such a sensitive issue.
 
Shamwow said:
See therein lies the blindness to your privilege. You have a body and brain capable of achieving what you achieved and not everyone does in the first place.

Many people work just as hard for much less.
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Right, working my ass off = privilege. Got it. You can think that all you want, but it doesn’t justify what you’re wanting to force biological female athletes to do.
 
Acheron said:
Cool, I don't think anyone needs to have first hand experience into competitive sports to perceive they very tangible differences in physical performances between the male and female sex. Then it might not be so obvious to some folks how competitive athletes are and if we're talking about the top athletes then it's a essential requirement to be super competitive and sometimes even agressive and being a bad loser is what it takes to excel.

So yeah athletes are going to be frisky at the very least if a situation they perceive as unfair is presented to them within their sport. I remember the olympics in Rio when a lot of swimmers where having digs at Yulia Efimova every time they had a chance as she had because of her doping scandal. With transgender athletes they would be more vocal if it wasn't such a sensitive issue.
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Quite right. And as you said, it isn’t necessary, but it does give a different perspective to have first hand experience with this kind of thing. I know for a fact that the best biologically female wrestlers in the world wouldn’t stand a chance against a bench warming college wrestler in their weight class. I also know that with only a 5-12% loss in muscle mass from transitioning, that still wouldn’t change. No female wrestler is going to be thrilled about that possibility.

I posted this earlier in the thread and I think it hits the nail of this issue right on the head from the perspective of a competitor…

"First off, I would like to stress that I fully support the transgender community, and that what I'm about to say doesn't come from a place of rejection of this athlete's identity," she said.

However, anyone that has trained weightlifting at a high level knows this to be true in their bones: this particular situation is unfair to the sport and to the athletes.

I understand that for sports authorities nothing is as simple as following your common sense and that there are a lot of impracticalities when studying such a rare phenomenon, but for athletes, the whole thing feels like a bad joke."
- Anna Van Bellinghen, Belgian Olympic weightlifter
https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1108399/anna-vanbellinghen-hubbard
 
Carolina Red said:
Right, working my ass off = privilege. Got it. You can think that all you want, but it doesn’t justify what you’re wanting to force biological female athletes to do.
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Thanks for intentionally misreading my post.
 
Carolina Red said:
Right, working my ass off = privilege. Got it. You can think that all you want, but it doesn’t justify what you’re wanting to force biological female athletes to do.
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Why didn't you win the Nationals or Olympics by the way?
 
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