Transgender Athletes

Halftrack said:
Phil has been consistently arguing that no one is born trans and that it's the act of transitioning that makes one such, while also citing edge cases of people with fetishes and some who've suffered trauma who transitioned, in what I can only assume is an attempt to back his claim. Thus he seems to think people choose to be trans. This is the assertion I've challenged him on.
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It's just deliberate misunderstanding to support arguments and ignore anything other than it.
 
Carolina Red said:
He literally covered what you’re saying here in a post to you. A post I’ve quoted above. Quite frankly, I’m done talking about it, because it is clear what has and hasn’t happened.
Next time, maybe someone should use the report function for what they think is bigotry instead of derailing a thread again.
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And as I've said, he's chatting absolute shit because that's not how it works. The act of transitioning isn' what makes you trans, being trans leads to transitioning.

And miss me with bigotry shit, I haven't accused him of anything, despite him repeating and referring to some very questionable shit.

He did accuse me of homophobia though, so I suggest you have a go at him for that if you're going to throw a strop.
 
Halftrack said:
And as I've said, he's chatting absolute shit because that's not how it works. The act of transitioning isn' what makes you trans, being trans leads to transitioning.

And miss me with bigotry shit, I haven't accused him of anything, despite him repeating and referring to some very questionable shit.

He did accuse me of homophobia though, so I suggest you have a go at him for that if you're going to throw a strop.
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I was missing you with the bigotry shit. Because I was clearly talking to the other person I quoted in the post.

Can we get the thread back on the rails now?
 
Carolina Red said:
I was missing you with the bigotry shit. Because I was clearly talking to the other person I quoted in the post.

Can we get the thread back on the rails now?
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I think the discussion around whether someone "chooses" to be trans or are born that way is an important part of the debate, especially since the claim that being trans is a choice was used as a reason for why they shouldn't be allowed to compete against women.
 
Carolina Red said:
And yes, this is calling someone a bigot.
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no, it isn't. i mean i literally said Phil's points resemble points made against gay people in the past. which is a factual statement. i'm not sure why you can't see that distinction (well, I do, but anyway).
 
Halftrack said:
I think the discussion around whether someone "chooses" to be trans or are born that way is an important part of the debate, especially since the claim that being trans is a choice was used as a reason for why they shouldn't be allowed to compete against women.
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it's rather telling that, when pressed, no one actually addresses this point.
 
It's the physical characteristics that I have an issue with - in simple biological terms the average transgender woman will be stronger and more physically able than the average woman (and in the same way the average trans man will not be as strong or physically able as the average man - you can build muscle but I don't think you can change bone density, etc.), that's a simple fact. Therefore to me it does feel that this is an unfair advantage trans women will have over women and in the fairness of sport I don't feel comfortable with it - in some sports this won't be evident of course and there is no issue but in some, particularly those based around speed and strength there is a clear biological advantage for a trans women.

How to overcome this issue I don't know - perhaps in those types of sports trans women and men could compete against other trans women and men to make it a fair playing field.
 
Halftrack said:
I think the discussion around whether someone "chooses" to be trans or are born that way is an important part of the debate, especially since the claim that being trans is a choice was used as a reason for why they shouldn't be allowed to compete against women.
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It's got nothing to do with the debate. It's only relevant to those that go through the medical transition and are elite level sports people.

Whether they were born trans or not has no bearing on any of this in my mind.
 
Conor said:
Not really, people can misspeak on the internet just as much as in real life when discussing something. I believe he has expanded on his point enough for my point to still stand. I'm out anyway, enjoy your continued streak of never, ever, ever 'losing' on the internet.
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Where's this coming from? If by "losing on the internet" means being wrong, then I've lost plenty of times and have no qualms about saying so. Such a weird thing to make up about someone.
 
So much bad faith debate in this thread (from the usual suspects). The decision to transition is obviously a choice. The clue is in the word “decision”. This is not the same thing as arguing that gender dysphoria (or, indeed, sexuality) is a choice. Calling someone a bigot for making this point is pathetic tbh. Albeit predictable.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
So much bad faith debate in this thread (from the usual suspects). The decision to transition is obviously a choice. The clue is in the word “decision”. This is not the same thing as arguing that gender dysphoria (or, indeed, sexuality) is a choice. Calling someone a bigot for making this point is pathetic tbh. Albeit predictable.
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repeating once again, because I have no idea how this is your takeaway if you've read the last few pages in full: the original comment from Phil was that trans people choose to identify as trans - i.e. they are not born trans. if he wants to clarify that statement, then by all means, but he has yet to do so thus far.

it's an important point, because if you are born trans, then transitioning is massively, fundamentally important to that individual's mental health and wellbeing. as I already said earlier, we should be creating a tolerant environment/society in which trans people can transition safely and easily, not creating even more obstacles to what they already face. What is being proposed is essentially discrimination against trans people because they were born with a misaligned gender identification, and then justifying it as ‘well you chose to transition’. that isn't the actions of a tolerant society.
 
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stepic said:
repeating once again, because I have no idea how this is your takeaway if you've read the last few pages in full: the original comment from Phil was that trans people choose to identify as trans - i.e. they are not born trans. if he wants to clarify that statement, then by all means, but he has yet to do so thus far.

it's an important point, because if you are born trans, then transitioning is massively, fundamentally important to that individual for their mental health and wellbeing. as I already said earlier, we should be creating a tolerant environment/society in which trans people can transition safely and easily, not creating even more obstacles to what they already face. What is being proposed is essentially discrimination against trans people because they were born with a misaligned gender identification, and then justifying it as ‘well you chose to transition’. that isn't the actions of a tolerant society.
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No one is saying they can't or shouldn't transition but when it comes to ELITE level sport those advances gained from being born male just can't be ignored. It isn't fair to the other party, cis women.
 
arnie_ni said:
No one is saying they can't or shouldn't transition but when it comes to ELITE level sport those advances gained from being born male just can't be ignored. It isn't fair to the other party, cis women.
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Actually, Gensect, provided as a source in this debate by the very person who said that people choose to identify as trans, do say that they shouldn't transition. No one in this post has specifically said that people shouldn't transition, and no one has, as far as I know, claimed that anyone did.
 
stepic said:
repeating once again, because I have no idea how this is your takeaway if you've read the last few pages in full: the original comment from Phil was that trans people choose to identify as trans - i.e. they are not born trans. if he wants to clarify that statement, then by all means, but he has yet to do so thus far.

it's an important point, because if you are born trans, then transitioning is massively, fundamentally important to that individual's mental health and wellbeing. as I already said earlier, we should be creating a tolerant environment/society in which trans people can transition safely and easily, not creating even more obstacles to what they already face. What is being proposed is essentially discrimination against trans people because they were born with a misaligned gender identification, and then justifying it as ‘well you chose to transition’. that isn't the actions of a tolerant society.
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I actually don’t disagree with any of that.

But in a discussion about transgender athletes it’s obviously relevant to talk about the point at which they “choose” to transition as this is the point at which they first compete against people with a different biological sex. That’s not the same thing as arguing that being transgender is a choice and it’s bad faith to spin this point the way it’s been spun in this thread. Never mind making accusations of bigotry.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
But in a discussion about transgender athletes it’s obviously relevant to talk about the point at which they “choose” to transition as this is the point at which they first compete against people with a different biological sex. That’s not the same thing as arguing that being transgender is a choice and it’s bad faith to spin this point the way it’s been spun in this thread. Never mind making accusations of bigotry.
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The guy specifically said being trans was a choice, and has affirmed this when pressed on it. He has it in his head that the act of transitioning is what makes someone trans, and not, you know, being born that way.

There's also this
PhilQ said:
Lia Thomas could have continued to compete with the other males. Instead she's decided she wants to compete with the females where she has an advantage and we expect the biological women to be ok with it or be called bigots.
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which is, even with the most charitable reading, a fecking shitty thing to say. A fantastically unkind assumption to make about a person and their motivations.

But yeah, bad faith.
 
Halftrack said:
which is, even with the most charitable reading, a fecking shitty thing to say. A fantastically unkind assumption to make about a person and their motivations.

But yeah, bad faith.
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But why is it wrong to state that competing against women was in her best interest? Izsac Henig also has the option to take the hormone treatment and compete against men if he so decided but for one reason or another they made a decision.
 
If someone is born trans, goes through childhood feeling trans, but then goes through adolescence and puberty and, at the end of it, they no longer feel like that. Maybe they go on to be cis and gay or whatever.

Then were they really born trans?
 
hobbers said:
If someone is born trans, goes through childhood feeling trans, but then goes through adolescence and puberty and, at the end of it, they no longer feel like that. Maybe they go on to be cis and gay or whatever.

Then were they really born trans?
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Then they had gender dysphoria, but weren't trans. Simples.
 
Halftrack said:
There's also this

Lia Thomas could have continued to compete with the other males. Instead she's decided she wants to compete with the females where she has an advantage and we expect the biological women to be ok with it or be called bigots.
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which is, even with the most charitable reading, a fecking shitty thing to say. A fantastically unkind assumption to make about a person and their motivations.

But yeah, bad faith.
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Which is very interesting. Accusations of bigotry is apparently the big bad wolf. It derails the thread, it's bad faith, etc. Making up accusations of bigotry, however, that's fine. They don't even take notice, just like they don't care about people linking to extremely anti-trans spaces like Gensect. Gensect is one of the main drivers of the obviously transphobic and pseudoscientific concept of rapid onset gender dysphoria, but silence. It's selective outrage.
 
Went fishing, came back, same folks still can’t figure out the hint to stop derailing the thread. Locked until folks can figure it out.
 
Right decision in my mind. Protect the fairness of the women's event, while also looking to create an open category in the future that trans athletics can compete in if they wish. Though whether that will just be an renamed men's division or a third divisions will remain to be seen.
 
Wibble said:
Transgender swimmers prohibited by FINA due to significant performance advantage.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...rred-from-female-competitions-after-fina-vote
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I like they're trying to move away from testosterone levels as it always seemed a bit an arbitrary and simplistic measure to reduce the differences between men and women in athletic performance. Each sport is different and that was causing more issues and disrupting the fairness in the female category.
 
Acheron said:
I like they're trying to move away from testosterone levels as it always seemed a bit an arbitrary and simplistic measure to reduce the differences between men and women in athletic performance. Each sport is different and that was causing more issues and disrupting the fairness in the female category.
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Not to mention forcing people to medically moderate their testosterone to compete is, imo, ethically dubious.
 
Carolina Red said:
In the article it talks about creating an open division that they can compete in.
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Will there be enough entrants? I feel bad for trans athletes but I would also feel bad for athletes who may have lost medals or whatever in a potentially unfair way. Maybe this is just the least shit solution?
 
If MTF athletes don't have an advantage over cis-female athletes just from the fact that they used to be biologically male presumably you'd see FTM athletes that have been given hormone therapy and legally become male competing at a high level of mens' sport too? Fact is pretty much every trans athlete worthy of note is either MTF and competed in womens' sports after transitioning, or FTM, and competed in womens' sports before transitioning. The only example of a FTM athlete competing with men that I can find is Schuyler Bailar, who was one of the best swimmers in the country in his age group when he was competing against girls, swimming alongside swimming legend Katie Ledecky, and is now an above average college level swimmer in the mens' category. That seems to be the bottom line. Even a potential Olympic gold medallist won't be better than middle of the pack after transitioning to male. Biology is just simply a hell of a drug.

It's a difficult issue because it's going to be unfair on someone no matter how it's handled, and there can't really be any shades of grey based on hormone levels or something like that. It's undeniable that, all other things equal, MTF athletes do have a significant advantage that no amount of hormone therapy will ever take away from them, and even the best cis-female athletes can't do anything legal to level the playing field in that respect. Banning trans athletes from competing in women's events is the least bad option of the two, simply because the other option unfairly affects a much larger group of people.
 
Wibble said:
Transgender swimmers prohibited by FINA due to significant performance advantage.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...rred-from-female-competitions-after-fina-vote
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A bit of sanity.

I can't for the life of me understand, why some people are so willing to throw away fairness in women's athletics in the name of inclusivity. I've said it before, but not being able to compete in high level competitive sports is such a small, small sacrifice to make for people who transition.
 
Reading the article I understand why FINA have come to their decision but the compassionate side of me feels its tough on trans athletes. There is unfortunately no simple fix that enables us to have a simple and quick solution to what is a very complex and nuanced problem.

This subject is fraught with difficulty, mainly because both sides most extreme views bleed into the central discourse, infecting it with hyperbole, insults and bad faith arguments.

On one side you have a side claiming literal genocide if 100% of their demands are not met and on the other a side claiming a grooming conspiracy and degeneration of morality if even 1% of demands are met.

It's a wedge issue (loathed to use that term) that both sides can use as a cudgel. Combine this with social media and it becomes a toxic wasteland. It doesn't help trans people and it doesn't help women. It just creates a divide.

In regards to the athlete question, which I have spent a lot of time thinking about, I think this is a decision made to protect the integrity of women's sports which is a good, but doesn't address the need to allow trans athletes to compete which is a bad.
 
Mike Smalling said:
A bit of sanity.

I can't for the life of me understand, why some people are so willing to throw away fairness in women's athletics in the name of inclusivity. I've said it before, but not being able to compete in high level competitive sports is such a small, small sacrifice to make for people who transition.
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I think, it most cases it comes from a place of compassion but I agree with you.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I think, it most cases it comes from a place of compassion but I agree with you.
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Yeah, compassion, inclusivity, fear of offending, wish to appear progressive, etc. It's a bit of everything. We have moved so much in the right direction on a lot of issues related to gender, race and LBGT+ issues over the last years, and 98% of it is for the better. But we are also reaching a limit, where we have to stop and think on a few topics. This is certainly one of them.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Reading the article I understand why FINA have come to their decision but the compassionate side of me feels its tough on trans athletes. There is unfortunately no simple fix that enables us to have a simple and quick solution to what is a very complex and nuanced problem.

This subject is fraught with difficulty, mainly because both sides most extreme views bleed into the central discourse, infecting it with hyperbole, insults and bad faith arguments.

On one side you have a side claiming literal genocide if 100% of their demands are not met and on the other a side claiming a grooming conspiracy and degeneration of morality if even 1% of demands are met.

It's a wedge issue (loathed to use that term) that both sides can use as a cudgel. Combine this with social media and it becomes a toxic wasteland. It doesn't help trans people and it doesn't help women. It just creates a divide.

In regards to the athlete question, which I have spent a lot of time thinking about, I think this is a decision made to protect the integrity of women's sports which is a good, but doesn't address the need to allow trans athletes to compete which is a bad.
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I think they are adding an open event for them. they aren't going to be prevented from competing
 
Stacks said:
I think they are adding an open event for them. they aren't going to be prevented from competing
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I have a feeling the argument against this might be that affirmation is an important part of gender identity and defacto competing in a non-female group might cause distress.
 
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