Transgender rights discussion

DanH said:
She might just believe what she is saying.
There are so many posts in here attempting to justify or minimise the abuse she is receiving.
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She might indeed, but some of her views are countered by actual science.

For my part, I don't take issue with wanting to have a discussion about allowing trans women into what have traditionally been safe spaces for women, but it's a complex issue that requires people to be able to understand and sympathise with the other side. And also, it's probably not one I as a man should be part of.

The problem with Rowling is that she continues to conflate sex and gender, spreads misinformation and falsehoods, and tries to have the aforementioned debate. All at once. It makes having a reasoned debate impossible. Then she, and the rest of the gender critical community, denounce any criticism as misogyny.
fergieisold said:
The Blair video is good...not sure why non trans people are so utterly desperate to paint Rowling as transphobic even at the expense of actual trans people who don’t care about the tweets...it’s weird!!
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I'm shocked that a transphobic person doesn't take issue with Rowling's tweets. It's almost like they agree or something.

Again, Blair White is an extremely bigoted person, who believes the only correct way to be trans is to be exactly like her. And even if you are, you're still mentally ill, and there's nothing wrong with misgendering you. It's also okay to bully and harass you, should you fail to pass as your preferred gender. If you didn't want to be bullied and harassed, you should have tried harder. She's a useful idiot. She's to trans women what Milo Yiannopoulos is to gay men, and what Candace Owens is to Black Americans. She aspires to be one of the good ones, while providing justifications and cover for bigots to continue being bigoted. That's literally the only reason anyone knows who she is, just like with Milo and Candace.

She also has a really bad habit of misrepresenting the views of anyone she's addressing or responding to in her videos, to the point that they're essentially worthless.
 
Halftrack said:
She might indeed, but some of her views are countered by actual science.

For my part, I don't take issue with wanting to have a discussion about allowing trans women into what have traditionally been safe spaces for women, but it's a complex issue that requires people to be able to understand and sympathise with the other side. And also, it's probably not one I as a man should be part of.

The problem with Rowling is that she continues to conflate sex and gender, spreads misinformation and falsehoods, and tries to have the aforementioned debate. All at once. It makes having a reasoned debate impossible. Then she, and the rest of the gender critical community, denounce any criticism as misogyny.

I'm shocked that a transphobic person doesn't take issue with Rowling's tweets. It's almost like they agree or something.

Again, Blair White is an extremely bigoted person, who believes the only correct way to be trans is to be exactly like her. And even if you are, you're still mentally ill, and there's nothing wrong with misgendering you. It's also okay to bully and harass you, should you fail to pass as your preferred gender. If you didn't want to be bullied and harassed, you should have tried harder. She's a useful idiot. She's to trans women what Milo Yiannopoulos is to gay men, and what Candace Owens is to Black Americans. She aspires to be one of the good ones, while providing justifications and cover for bigots to continue being bigoted. That's literally the only reason anyone knows who she is, just like with Milo and Candace.

She also has a really bad habit of misrepresenting the views of anyone she's addressing or responding to in her videos, to the point that they're essentially worthless.
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Well maybe she is manipulating me then because I found her video on the issue described everything pretty perfectly. I can’t stand milo...

edit:bigoted trans people. We really are pushing the envelope of wokeness here!:lol::lol::lol:
 
fergieisold said:
Well maybe she is manipulating me then because I found her video on the issue described everything pretty perfectly. I can’t stand milo...

edit:bigoted trans people. We really are pushing the envelope of wokeness here!:lol::lol::lol:
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Not sure what you find so funny about it, it's not really a laughing matter. It's got nothing to do with wokeness, so kindly miss me with that shit.

e: Like, do you honestly believe being a member of minority group mean you can't be bigoted?
 
fergieisold said:
The Blair video is good...not sure why non trans people are so utterly desperate to paint Rowling as transphobic even at the expense of actual trans people who don’t care about the tweets...it’s weird!!
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The gender identification of the painter, or the defender have no bearing on the accuracy of the label. And the transphobic label applied to J.K. Rowling is accurate by any definition that I have seen:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transphobia
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transphobia

J.K. Rowling is transphobic. She fits the definition. This is how we do language. All this (paraphrasing) "mislabelling" and "she can't be, it's her opinion" and "only by the woke brigade" is senseless rubbish. J.K. Rowling promotes transphobic material to millions of people. She can stop being transphobic if she wants and then she will not be a transphobe any longer (unless she starts again) but until then we settle on this accurate description of her behaviour towards this specific marginalised community.

Nick Griffin is no less racist when accused of being a racist by a white person than he is when accused by a person of colour. But if you like Blair White then you can maybe forget this bit, it's something about reasoning, you might not be interested.

J.K. Rowling is transphobe.
 
dumbo said:
J.K. Rowling is transphobe.
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I wonder if she feels intense anxiety, has a panic attack or just shrieks in terror whenever she encounters a transexual person?
 
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Kinsella said:
I wonder if she feels intense anxiety, has a panic attack or just shrieks in terror whenever she encounters a transexual?
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Do you also wonder if oil feels intense anxiety, has a panic attack or just shrieks in terror whenever it encounters water?
 
Kinsella said:
I wonder if she feels intense anxiety, has a panic attack or just shrieks in terror whenever she encounters a transexual person?
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Ah, so funny. You're real fun.

Islamophobia, homophobia, xenophobia, transphobia etc. are non-clinical phobias, and aren't considered anxiety disorders. They refer to irrational fear or hatred.
 
Kinsella said:
I wonder if she feels intense anxiety, has a panic attack or just shrieks in terror whenever she encounters a transexual person?
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What a strange thought to have, but I wouldn't rule it out, I guess such an irrational response might partly explain why she is so unkind towards marginalised people.
 
Halftrack said:
Ah, so funny. You're real fun.

Islamophobia, homophobia, xenophobia, transphobia etc. are non-clinical phobias, and aren't considered anxiety disorders. They refer to irrational fear or hatred.
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Indeed, and I'm interested in how language can be used to stifle debate and often suppress views which are perfectly rational and aren't governed by an irrational fear or a prejudice.

Take the first example you mentioned - Islamophobia. If a person from a non-islamic country objects to the precepts of Islam taking root and flourishing in the country he/she is from because he/she doesn't want to live in an islamic society, then that person isn't suffering from a phobia. Rather, it's an entirely rational and reasonable position to take.
 
Kinsella said:
Indeed, and I'm interested in how language can be used to stifle debate and often suppress views which are perfectly rational and aren't governed by an irrational fear or a prejudice.

Take the first example you mentioned - Islamophobia. If a person from a non-islamic country objects to the precepts of Islam taking root and flourishing in the country he/she is from because he/she doesn't want to live in an islamic society, then that person isn't suffering from a phobia. Rather, it's an entirely rational and reasonable position to take.
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Reading comprehension isn't your strong suit, huh?

There's nothing rational or reasonable about your example. It's textbook Islamophobia.
 
Kinsella said:
Indeed, and I'm interested in how language can be used to stifle debate and often suppress views which are perfectly rational and aren't governed by an irrational fear or a prejudice.

Take the first example you mentioned - Islamophobia. If a person from a non-islamic country objects to the precepts of Islam taking root and flourishing in the country he/she is from because he/she doesn't want to live in an islamic society, then that person isn't suffering from a phobia. Rather, it's an entirely rational and reasonable position to take.
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You mean just like you did by warping the definitions of transphobia that I posted from commonly referenced, established websites - and that you sneakily left out when quoting me - to make the definitions conditional upon physical responses.

I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and considered you may have been joking about, which would have been alright if a little mean spirited. But your follow up makes it look like your deflection was malicious in nature.

So congratulations on taking me on this tangent distracting from the more important issue of discrimination faced by marginalised people, and stifling the fecking debate.
 
Kinsella said:
Because the given example is postjudice.
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Postjudice requires a previous experience, but you mentioned no such thing in your example. Good job retroactively changing the premise.

Postjudice and a phobia aren't mutually exclusive either, so again:
Halftrack said:
What point? Seems to me that you, despite having the difference explained to you, want to keep conflating clinical and non-clinical phobias.
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Halftrack said:
Postjudice requires a previous experience, but you mentioned no such thing in your example. Good job retroactively changing the premise.

Postjudice and a phobia aren't mutually exclusive either, so again:
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Postjudice may require previous experience, but it also requires an examination or observation of the facts.

For example, a person doesn't require a previous experience of living under a fascist or communist state, to form an opinion on whether he/she wants to live under such a regime.
 
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Kinsella said:
Postjudice may require a previous experience, but it definitely requires an examination or observation of the facts.

For example, a person doesn't require a previous experience of living under a fascist or communist state, to form an opinion on whether he/she wants to live under such a regime.
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As long as they've gotten their knowledge from factual and reliable sources, and their reasoning is sound, you're right that personal experience isn't required to know whether or not you'd want to live in certain form of society.

But to your example; Islam has arguably taken root and flourished in many Western countries, without these countries being anywhere near becoming Islamic societies. It would also require Islam to be a monolithic religion, which it isn't.

For these reasons, a negative attitude towards Islam and Muslims based on a fear of your country becoming some form of unspecified Islamic society is an irrational and unfounded fear, or Islamophobia if you will.
 
Let me help you then:

J.k. Rowling is a transphobe by every reasonable definition.

This thread is a discussion of J.K Rowling's transphobia, with given examples of her actively supporting transphobic comments and advocating for known transphobic persons. This is further underlined by a sustained campaign broadcast to her millions of fans and subscribers highlighting female apprehension towards trans rights. Some of these apprehensions are understandable and forgivable and others are reprehensible dog whistles that play on negative stereotypes of marginalised people.

Then there is a second layer of contributers that seeks to deny what is evident either due to a continued ignorance of the supplied evidence, or due to transphobic, malicious intent.

That is the thread.
 
dumbo said:
Let me help you then:

J.k. Rowling is a transphobe by every reasonable definition.

This thread is a discussion of J.K Rowling's transphobia, with given examples of her actively supporting transphobic comments and advocating for known transphobic persons. This is further underlined by a sustained campaign broadcast to her millions of fans and subscribers highlighting female apprehension towards trans rights. Some of these apprehensions are understandable and forgivable and others are reprehensible dog whistles that play on negative stereotypes if marginalised people.

Then there is a second layer of contributers that seeks to deny what is evident either due to a continued ignorance of the supplied evidence, or due to transphobic, malicious intent.
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Well, this much was clear in about 20 pages. But then, there is a clear sidetrack about death threats and abuses.
 
dumbo said:
Let me help you then:

J.k. Rowling is a transphobe by every reasonable definition.

This thread is a discussion of J.K Rowling's transphobia, with given examples of her actively supporting transphobic comments and advocating for known transphobic persons. This is further underlined by a sustained campaign broadcast to her millions of fans and subscribers highlighting female apprehension towards trans rights. Some of these apprehensions are understandable and forgivable and others are reprehensible dog whistles that play on negative stereotypes of marginalised people.

Then there is a second layer of contributers that seeks to deny what is evident either due to a continued ignorance of the supplied evidence, or due to transphobic, malicious intent.

That is the thread.
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Well damn. I guess it’s good I’ve never read one of her books then.
 
a bookstore here has banned Harry Potter books, whether you agree with that decision or not (I don't personally) banning books is probably the best PR an author can get to increase sales

I dislike her for her transphobic views but for me it's important to draw a distinction between that and her right to write what she wants - which I'd support

I suppose the one caveat to that would be if her books incited hate or violence (never read one myself)
 
I don't know how much PR she really needs or whether she can even sell anymore books at this rate, or even if the negative reaction to her views will offset any potential gains from the increased exposure. I don't like her and she seems to have quite a nasty character about her (even besides her trans views). I think Harry Potter is pretty terrible myself and having to sit through some of those films as a guardian was extremely tedious. I have no stake in her as a person or her work.

And I say all this as someone who agrees that banning Harry Potter books seems unhelpful. She's a popular author who has encouraged millions of children to read; her work brings joy to many. I've been to Harry Potter world and seen first hand the pleasure this stuff brings to young kids. There is very little in the books/films that I'm aware of that is excessively harmful to children (I know there are a few things, particularly around representation that could be better, but that is true of most things) and many of the book's messages are good ones.

Leave Harry Potter be, let J.K Rowling enjoy her billions, free from abusive messages and death threats. All I would hope for in exchange is that she stopped denigrating marginalised people.
 
I wonder if the level of scrutiny applied to her work/opinions has anything to do with the demographic of her readers? The people most invested in her books are at an age where they get the most worked up (EDIT: that’s a little unkind... care most passionately?) about social justice. Hence she is much more likely to be pilloried than someone who has always written books for adults.

Obviously, she’s ended up putting her head above the parapet by going public with her opinions on trans views but it all started with her being attacked about stuff to do with the sexuality of a fictional, non-human character (I think?) Which seemed kind of silly at the time. Her mistake was to get involved in that bun fight at all. She should really have tried to ignore it and hoped it went away.

This whole thing feels a a bit like the Graham Linehan descent into madness. Someone tries to take on the progressive internet on a controversial subject - feels attacked - and ends up doubling down, repeatedly, until their views become more and more extreme and objectionable. Basically, woke Twitter is now fighting a monster of its own creation.

Radicalisation via internet arguing is definitely a thing. Happens on redcafe all the time. I’ve come bloody close to saying Paul Pogba is shit at football, many times. Which is obviously stupid - and wouldn’t reflect my true feelings - but if you spend enough time butting heads with Pogba evangelists you get taken to some pretty dark places!
 
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Pogue Mahone said:
I wonder if the level of scrutiny applied to her work/opinions has anything to do with the demographic of her readers? The people most invested in her books are at an age where they get the most worked up (EDIT: that’s a little unkind... care most passionately?) about social justice. Hence she is much more likely to be pilloried than someone who has always written books for adults.

Obviously, she’s ended up putting her head above the parapet by going public with her opinions on trans views but it all started with her being attacked about stuff to do with the sexuality of a fictional, non-human character (I think?) Which seemed kind of silly at the time. Her mistake was to get involved in that bun fight at all. She should really have tried to ignore it and hoped it went away.

This whole thing feels a a bit like the Graham Linehan descent into madness. Someone tries to take on the progressive internet on a controversial subject - feels attacked - and ends up doubling down, repeatedly, until their views become more and more extreme and objectionable. Basically, woke Twitter is now fighting a monster of its own creation.

Radicalisation via internet arguing is definitely a thing. Happens on redcafe all the time. I’ve come bloody close to saying Paul Pogba is shit at football, many times. Which is obviously stupid - and wouldn’t reflect my true feelings - but if you spend enough time butting heads with Pogba evangelists you get taken to some pretty dark places!
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The readers of her books are in their 30s, I think it's pretty disingenuous to paint them as young lefties going through a phase, before the real world has hit them(at least that's what it sounds like you're suggesting, not sure as it reads like a pretty crap conservative generalisation of anyone younger than themselves).
 
Conor said:
The readers of her books are in their 30s, I think it's pretty disingenuous to paint them as young lefties going through a phase, before the real world has hit them(at least that's what it sounds like you're suggesting, not sure as it reads like a pretty crap conservative generalisation of anyone younger than themselves).
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First paragraph is really just a throwaway comment but it’s not as though kids only read Harry Potter books when they first came out, so the only Harry Potter fans on the planet are all 30+. My point is her readership demographic skews young. Which it does, obviously.

I was going to say I can’t imagine many people over the age of, say, 40 becoming a massive Harry Potter fan. But you never know. We’ve definitely got infantilised as a society over the last few decades. As BlindBoy says, the movie Big would make a lot less sense if it was set in the here and now.
 
Halftrack said:
Not sure what you find so funny about it, it's not really a laughing matter. It's got nothing to do with wokeness, so kindly miss me with that shit.

e: Like, do you honestly believe being a member of minority group mean you can't be bigoted?
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Why on earth would a trans person be bigoted towards trans people. Do you maybe think she's just putting her opinion out there on biological sex and people that don't like it cry bigot? It's exactly the same as the 'you're racist' brigade.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I wonder if the level of scrutiny applied to her work/opinions has anything to do with the demographic of her readers? The people most invested in her books are at an age where they get the most worked up (EDIT: that’s a little unkind... care most passionately?) about social justice. Hence she is much more likely to be pilloried than someone who has always written books for adults.

Obviously, she’s ended up putting her head above the parapet by going public with her opinions on trans views but it all started with her being attacked about stuff to do with the sexuality of a fictional, non-human character (I think?) Which seemed kind of silly at the time. Her mistake was to get involved in that bun fight at all. She should really have tried to ignore it and hoped it went away.

This whole thing feels a a bit like the Graham Linehan descent into madness. Someone tries to take on the progressive internet on a controversial subject - feels attacked - and ends up doubling down, repeatedly, until their views become more and more extreme and objectionable. Basically, woke Twitter is now fighting a monster of its own creation.

Radicalisation via internet arguing is definitely a thing. Happens on redcafe all the time. I’ve come bloody close to saying Paul Pogba is shit at football, many times. Which is obviously stupid - and wouldn’t reflect my true feelings - but if you spend enough time butting heads with Pogba evangelists you get taken to some pretty dark places!
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I think a huge part of the scrutiny is down to disappointment.

No Harry Potter-loving leftie will expect Donald Trump or Ben Shapiro or Katie Hopkins to be anything other than vile and reactionary when it comes to social issues important to them (us, really - I loved the Harry Potter books and I'm very much a leftie), such as trans rights. It's no surprise, it's what they do. There is no disappointment.

Rowling, however... her books were and are an important part of many people's childhoods. She's a self-identified feminist, gay rights advocate, and so on. You'd expect someone like her to not be a transphobe - and then it is just that more painful when she turns out to be one.
 
Tarrou said:
a bookstore here has banned Harry Potter books, whether you agree with that decision or not (I don't personally) banning books is probably the best PR an author can get to increase sales

I dislike her for her transphobic views but for me it's important to draw a distinction between that and her right to write what she wants - which I'd support

I suppose the one caveat to that would be if her books incited hate or violence (never read one myself)
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She has the right to write whatever she wants, but then surely a book store has the right to not sell her books?
 
fergieisold said:
Why on earth would a trans person be bigoted towards trans people. Do you maybe think she's just putting her opinion out there on biological sex and people that don't like it cry bigot? It's exactly the same as the 'you're racist' brigade.
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There is a very high probability you didn't actually read his post. Either that, or you just chose to ignore it, so you could engage in your favourite activity: crying about people calling out bigotry and/or racism.

Oh, and using the word brigade.

Boom gottem.
 
Siorac said:
I think a huge part of the scrutiny is down to disappointment.

No Harry Potter-loving leftie will expect Donald Trump or Ben Shapiro or Katie Hopkins to be anything other than vile and reactionary when it comes to social issues important to them (us, really - I loved the Harry Potter books and I'm very much a leftie), such as trans rights. It's no surprise, it's what they do. There is no disappointment.

Rowling, however... her books were and are an important part of many people's childhoods. She's a self-identified feminist, gay rights advocate, and so on. You'd expect someone like her to not be a transphobe - and then it is just that more painful when she turns out to be one.
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Well, exactly. She’s basically on the same side. There’s a parallel universe where Rowling never got bullied by hundreds of reactionary Twitter twats and never ended up thinking any deeper about trans rights than her left-leaning inclination that they’re probably a good thing.

It’s only after ending up at the bottom of a progressive pile on that she started lashing out, doubling down, feeling more aligned with long-term transphobes that take her side in the argument and ended up with genuinely problematic opinions. Like I said, woke Twitter is trying to cancel a monster it helped to create. A bit more compassion, patience and understanding about whatever initial misstep first put her in the firing line could have ended up with a very different outcome. And that’s the irony every time stuff like this is discussed. Compassion, patience and understanding is supposed to be central to everything that the progressive left stands for. Spend any time on Twitter and they give the exact opposite impression. Absolutely riddled with bullying, mean-spirited, reactionary arseholes
 
nimic said:
There is a very high probability you didn't actually read his post. Either that, or you just chose to ignore it, so you could engage in your favourite activity: crying about people calling out bigotry and/or racism.

Oh, and using the word brigade.

Boom gottem.
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Pretty sure you completely failed to read his post properly. The whole point is about whether Blair White the trans female is transphobic...that assertion is ludicrous in my opinion and switching the goal posts to ask whether minority groups can be bigoted towards other minority groups is stupid.
 
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