Transgender rights discussion

nimic said:
Well that post came after yours, so it can't have been what triggered your post. But of course I think that is acceptable. Do you think literally any opinion is valid?

And if pointing out an opinion and saying "it's wrong" is a sign of the intolerant left, then I think you might need to reconsider what tolerance means. That's about as mild as it comes.
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That post responded to mine, that's the point. Hopefully it's a bit tongue in cheek. But plenty of very similar posts are dead serious.

And yes, declaring certain opinion as wrong and denying the discussion of certain topics (whether that's the throwing of statues into harbours, or trans discussion, or whatever it may be) is clearly not ok. The subject doesn't matter. Who's "right" doesn't matter. It's an intolerance of discussion, which is a terrible thing.
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
Opinion about your own body not other people's bodies. Questions.. why does it concern you if they're making choices that's only affecting THEIR bodies?
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So just shut up and have no opinion? Why? Certain people are denying discussion. That's what I'm talking about. I have zero interest the actual topic, it's not particularly interesting in my opinion. But the shutting down of discussion is absolutely not on, and that's what I'm talking about.
 
Gee Male said:
OK. You're getting hung up on the wrong part of my post, but let's indulge. Start with my question - if the thread is about rights, then what rights do the general population have that trans people do not?
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The simple right to be able to exist in the public space as you or I can without being abused, threatened or marginalised.
If you think they dont get abused, threatened or marginalised then you need to open your eyes because they do, frequently.
Currently around the world there has been an anti trans sentiment whipped up and they as a social group within our societies are receiving more threats than ever before.
Here in NZ just 3 days ago the Police announced a specific request for all those in the Trans community to contact them about any threat they may have had. The reason for this request??? Solid intelligence from their sections monitoring domestic terrorism that there are plans to attack them.

Only 2 weeks ago a community library here had to shut down a school holiday event where some in the Trans community had done a fun Drag queen reading of some books. Anti Trans protestors forced the event to be shut down mid way through. The leaders of the protest and many of the protestors were identified as well known Nazi and white supremicists here in NZ. There is right now around the world a serious mood of threat towards trans people.

To be able to exist without persecution, threat or abuse is ats a pretty major right, something I dont have to worry about.
 
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Camilo said:
So just shut up and have no opinion? Why? Certain people are denying discussion. That's what I'm talking about. I have zero interest the actual topic, it's not particularly interesting in my opinion. But the shutting down of discussion is absolutely not on, and that's what I'm talking about.
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We're at 62 pages, so discussion is obviously allowed. If you're not talking about Redcafe, then your comment came right after a politician called trans people demons, so pretty much anything goes in the public discourse.
 
Dr. Dwayne said:
I assumed you'd watched the video in that Tweet. Not suggesting you feel the same as that guy but I wanted to highlight how people in power use opinions to dehumanize groups they don't like to make it easier for the general population to accept their oppression under the law.
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The reference point of your post and therefore context was clear and if someone wants to bemoan the standard of debate under the censorious and uncivil grip of the "left", they would be best placed to do so having either a) watched the vid posted with the thread and got the context (which I got, as an aside, having not yet viewed it) or b) stop playing games and have the courage of their convictions.
 
Camilo said:
So just shut up and have no opinion? Why? Certain people are denying discussion. That's what I'm talking about. I have zero interest the actual topic, it's not particularly interesting in my opinion. But the shutting down of discussion is absolutely not on, and that's what I'm talking about.
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You are literally having a discussion right now, although it is currently, admittedly, a meta discussion about whether you can have a discussion.

You can express any view you want. Depending upon how you express it, how you say it and where you choose to illustrate it, you will get differing reactions. It has ever been thus.

So discuss the matter at hand. You're free to. Or endlessly talk about how you can't do so, if it makes you happy.
 
I think these people are mentally ill and troubled, and it's quite unfortunate that society rather than treat their problem and get to the root of the cause why they feel uncomfortable in their own bodies, instead it is encouraged. Said people later realize that injecting themselves with hormones and surgeries doesn't help their depression and a large portion of them ends up killing themselves.

My bet is that a lot of these people suffer from severe depression and are looking for answers on how to escape it, but rather than helping them, people encourage it. It's like telling a person who thinks he is a superhero that can fly, that yes, he indeed he can because every person can be what they want. Said person then jumps off a building trying to test his flying powers and dies. Did you really help him by encouraging his ideas?
 
Sviken said:
I think these people are mentally ill and troubled, and it's quite unfortunate that society rather than treat their problem and get to the root of the cause why they feel uncomfortable in their own bodies, instead it is encouraged. Said people later realize that injecting themselves with hormones and surgeries doesn't help their depression and a large portion of them ends up killing themselves.

My bet is that a lot of these people suffer from severe depression and are looking for answers on how to escape it, but rather than helping them, people encourage it. It's like telling a person who thinks he is a superhero that can fly, that yes, he indeed he can because every person can be what they want. Said person then jumps off a building trying to test his flying powers and dies. Did you really help him by encouraging his ideas?
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Transgenders are mentally ill & troubled?

If so, oh dear.
 
Sviken said:
I think these people are mentally ill and troubled, and it's quite unfortunate that society rather than treat their problem and get to the root of the cause why they feel uncomfortable in their own bodies, instead it is encouraged. Said people later realize that injecting themselves with hormones and surgeries doesn't help their depression and a large portion of them ends up killing themselves.

My bet is that a lot of these people suffer from severe depression and are looking for answers on how to escape it, but rather than helping them, people encourage it. It's like telling a person who thinks he is a superhero that can fly, that yes, he indeed he can because every person can be what they want. Said person then jumps off a building trying to test his flying powers and dies. Did you really help him by encouraging his ideas?
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Whoa. Do you have any data to back up these claims?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I mean, it’s an awful post. But is it even possible to be trans without experiencing gender dysphoria? Which would surely constitute being - at the very least - “troubled”?
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I guess the important thing is how you are defining "troubled"
Troubled as in stressed or depressed versus troubled being mentally disturbed in an unhinged manner
 
I was always under the assumption that trans people have a high suicide rate because their transition isn’t accepted by society, not because they were mentally ill and end up regretting it. Is there any link between them being mentally ill and because of this are therefore more susceptible to suicide?
 
2 man midfield said:
I was always under the assumption that trans people have a high suicide rate because their transition isn’t accepted by society, not because they were mentally ill and end up regretting it. Is there any link between them being mentally ill and because of this are therefore more susceptible to suicide?
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It would be unusual to commit suicide without having at least a short term mental illness. I don’t know how anyone could parse between the different causes you mention. It’s obviously a bonkers claim to make that every trans person who commits suicide does so because they regret transitioning.
 
Stack said:
The simple right to be able to exist in the public space as you or I can without being abused, threatened or marginalised.
If you think they dont get abused, threatened or marginalised then you need to open your eyes because they do, frequently.
Currently around the world there has been an anti trans sentiment whipped up and they as a social group within our societies are receiving more threats than ever before.
Here in NZ just 3 days ago the Police announced a specific request for all those in the Trans community to contact them about any threat they may have had. The reason for this request??? Solid intelligence from their sections monitoring domestic terrorism that there are plans to attack them.

Only 2 weeks ago a community library here had to shut down a school holiday event where some in the Trans community had done a fun Drag queen reading of some books. Anti Trans protestors forced the event to be shut down mid way through. The leaders of the protest and many of the protestors were identified as well known Nazi and white supremicists here in NZ. There is right now around the world a serious mood of threat towards trans people.

To be able to exist without persecution, threat or abuse is ats a pretty major right, something I dont have to worry about.
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I get the sentiment of your post, I completely do. I'm on your side in this debate, you're clearly highlighting abhorrent incidents against a section of society that are only really looking for acceptance. I understand all of the frustration that is clearly evident in your post.

But at yhe same time, none of what you're talking about is a rights issue. Groups being threatened to the extent of the police being involved is a criminal issue, not a rights issue. A group having an event cancelled due to Nazis protesting is shit, but in its essence no different than speakers being cancelled in universities due to other views that some find disagreeable.

To be able to exist without persecution, threat or abuse, I mean it's obvious everyone should have that right (no paedo jokes, I know what some of you are like). There are millions, if not hundreds of millions, denied that right every day - from big ticket items like war and other mass racial/religious/other persecution to more individualised issues like domestic abuse. I don't mean to trivialise what trans people go through by saying that - quite the opposite - it's more to point to my initial post in this thread that rights are not at issue, more so that trans people need privilege right now in order to attain equality.
 
2 man midfield said:
I was always under the assumption that trans people have a high suicide rate because their transition isn’t accepted by society, not because they were mentally ill and end up regretting it. Is there any link between them being mentally ill and because of this are therefore more susceptible to suicide?
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Gender dysphoria could be categorized as mental illness, (honestly, I don't see how it is not.) However it is treatable. Also those people do not present danger nor are dysfunctional in society. There are also cases of people transitioning multiple times (I remember reading about one such example in Norway, if I remember correctly). However, making a sweeping statement brushing away gender dysphoria as a real condition and claiming they are all troubled and end up killing themselves because of their imagined problems, well I expect some hard proof for these kind of statements.

However, I also think there should be more discussion about gender dysphoria and what it constitutes and how often it is misdiagnosed. I'm pretty sure that there are people who suffer from different conditions who end up being diagnosed with gender dysphoria, or even worse self-diagnosing and self-labeling themselves as transgender. How big a percentage is of misdiagnosis, maybe it's 1%, maybe it's 50%, maybe more, maybe less. I think as a society we are charting a relatively unknown territory. And it will take years, even decades before we learn how to approach this problem.

One of the issues that I see is that treating gender dysphoria is best started early, usually some time in puberty. The sooner the transitioning starts, the better it is AFAIK. However, we are talking about teenagers. With all the stuff that's going on in their heads, insecurities, peer pressure, bullying, academic stress, generally being uncomfortable with your self, I can only imagine correctly diagnosing gender dysphoria and not just some other problem is a tremendous task.

But that is just my opinion. I've probably offended somebody if that is the case, I apologize. Everybody has the right to be happy and comfortable with themselves and nobody should be abused.
 
Sviken said:
I think these people are mentally ill and troubled, and it's quite unfortunate that society rather than treat their problem and get to the root of the cause why they feel uncomfortable in their own bodies, instead it is encouraged. Said people later realize that injecting themselves with hormones and surgeries doesn't help their depression and a large portion of them ends up killing themselves.

My bet is that a lot of these people suffer from severe depression and are looking for answers on how to escape it, but rather than helping them, people encourage it. It's like telling a person who thinks he is a superhero that can fly, that yes, he indeed he can because every person can be what they want. Said person then jumps off a building trying to test his flying powers and dies. Did you really help him by encouraging his ideas?
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I can't even be bothered to type out a proper reply to this absolute crock of shit.
 
Stack said:
I guess the important thing is how you are defining "troubled"
Troubled as in stressed or depressed versus troubled being mentally disturbed in an unhinged manner
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Now that's stereotyping!

Also AFAIK clinical depression is a disorder and mental illness. Without being an expert I'm pretty sure there are also different conditions that trouble people, but they still can function seemingly normal. Maybe bipolar disorder? I don't know, I'm not a mental health expert, so probably I'm talking out of my ***.
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
Why is it so hard for some people to accept that others can do whatever the hell they want with their own bodies? It's not your body, it's theirs. If they want to add two penises or two vaginas that's their right and they get to choose. If it's not on your body shut the hell up. I'm tired of people trying to analyze and justify someone else's choice. Only they need to know why it was necessary, and only they need to be comfortable with it. Period.
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I couldn't give a feck what people do with their bodies. But don't go around forcing me to say your pronounce instead of your name. And I'm not cis anything either, I'm a male.
 
Andersonson said:
I couldn't give a feck what people do with their bodies. But don't go around forcing me to say your pronounce instead of your name. And I'm not cis anything either, I'm a male.
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Must get frustrating being mislabelled all the time
 
Gee Male said:
OK. You're getting hung up on the wrong part of my post, but let's indulge. Start with my question - if the thread is about rights, then what rights do the general population have that trans people do not?
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Equality and fairness isn't about treating everyone exactly the same but rather, particulatly when it comes to marginalised groups, ensuring that everyone is treated in a way that prevents people being discriminated against and trying to make sure that everyone has equal opportunity in life, be that employment, access to buildings (or toilets/change rooms) or social interaction. In effect being afforded the opportunity to be happy and make the most of your life.

In the case of trans people a huge part of their welbeing is about not just being vaguely tolerated as being the sex their brain tells them they are, but actually being accepted as being that sex and treated as such. Which is where the bathroom debate comes from.

I doubt that there are currently many real issues with trans women using these facilities, as trans women have been using them for many years, largely unnoticed. But the debate is obviously not that simple as trans women (mostly I'd guess) would like to use female facilities as a female and some cis women have concerns about that happening for a variety of reasons, the reasonableness of which can be debated.

Like the trans women in sport issue it will sometimes result that you have to discriminate against one group or another as there is perhaps no perfect answer that makes everyone happy and the least shit answer that benefits as many people as possible is the only solution. So imo the contentious issues are almost always rights related, in the later case trans women's rights to be treated as women vs cis women's rights to fair sporting competition.
 
Jotun said:
One of the issues that I see is that treating gender dysphoria is best started early, usually some time in puberty. The sooner the transitioning starts, the better it is AFAIK. However, we are talking about teenagers. With all the stuff that's going on in their heads, insecurities, peer pressure, bullying, academic stress, generally being uncomfortable with your self, I can only imagine correctly diagnosing gender dysphoria and not just some other problem is a tremendous task.
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Yeah, it's a difficult for almost everyone so it's kind of hard to determine categorically if someone has gender dysphoria or is something else. Some people might try to debate that it is something pushed on more recently and that's why there are more cases but with time it should settle up.

Andersonson said:
Several times
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Like the kid who got banned in a pokemon tournament?
 
Sviken said:
I think these people are mentally ill and troubled, and it's quite unfortunate that society rather than treat their problem and get to the root of the cause why they feel uncomfortable in their own bodies, instead it is encouraged. Said people later realize that injecting themselves with hormones and surgeries doesn't help their depression and a large portion of them ends up killing themselves.

My bet is that a lot of these people suffer from severe depression and are looking for answers on how to escape it, but rather than helping them, people encourage it. It's like telling a person who thinks he is a superhero that can fly, that yes, he indeed he can because every person can be what they want. Said person then jumps off a building trying to test his flying powers and dies. Did you really help him by encouraging his ideas?
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And we wonder why trans people are demonised with attitudes like this?

Trans people do have more mental health issues but for many transitioning and being accepted as the sex their brain tells them they are is the partial or total solution to the root cause of their mental health struggles. Both of the people I know who have transitioned are much happier and healthier now.

Although attitude like this mean they are likely to suffer mental health challenges even after transition.
 
Andersonson said:
I couldn't give a feck what people do with their bodies. But don't go around forcing me to say your pronounce instead of your name. And I'm not cis anything either, I'm a male.
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Why would you not use the pronoun that someone prefers? Out of simple human kindness wouldn't you comply? It costs you nothing.

And cis is describing you as biologically male (which is what you want) and exclusively used in discussions where it is merely for clarity to differentiate between cis males and trans males. Just as you might talk about black men and white men in a discussion about race issues.
 
Andersonson said:
Why label at all? Why start the conversation with labelling? Just state your name. Be it Janice or Carl, who gives a shit?
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I was only half joking, I don’t see myself as CIS or anything either. However I do see why if you don’t think you are a man it would get annoying if people kept calling you one.

If you don’t accept their choice, of course that’s up to you. But if that’s all I’ve got to do to be accommodating and polite to someone who already belongs to a group with suicide rates approaching 50%, I’ll do it. Why add more hate into the world?
 
Wibble said:
Why would you not use the pronoun that someone prefers? Out of simple human kindness wouldn't you comply? It costs you nothing.

And cis is describing you as biologically male (which is what you want) and exclusively used in discussions where it is merely for clarity to differentiate between cis males and trans males. Just as you might talk about black men and white men in a discussion about race issues.
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I use the pronounce based on people names. If you are an Eric, i say him. If you are named Claire I say she. Mostly I just use people's names .. And I don't use the cis term either. I use male or female. If someone is trans I would use their name, like I do with everyone I know. If I didn't know the trans person I would most likely use the pronounce which suited his name? I don't see the use for cis/binary stuff. It's either male or female
 
HTG said:
And this is different from other forms of mutations? My understanding has always been, that evolution is just a bunch of mutations that happen to be advantageous for survival, thus they prevail. Just coincidence that basically works out in the organisms favour. Why would this be a different matter?
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All these things are true: (also, I study microbes, so my examples are going to be from there)

Mutations are indeed one of the main ways we get evolution.

They are indeed defined as errors, damage, abnormalities, aberration, etc.

Many mutations are neutral, creating no effect. Some are deleterious, harming the mutant cell/organism. Very few are beneficial. Often this is context-dependent: a mutation that helps a cell grow quicker in a nutrient-rich environment might reduce its survival in stress conditions.

The kinds of mutations you are talking about (XXY, X0, etc)- where an entire chromosome that is extra or missing - are very drastic, and usually harmful in humans (Down's is a classic example). But that is not universally the case: my project right now is understanding how duplication of half a chromosome helps some pathogenic fungi evade antifungal drugs. In the species I worked with previously, we knew for certain that a chromsome deletion or duplication meant almost nothing: its cells had only one chromosome, but carried 15-25 copies of it! A couple more or less made no difference. But in animals and bacteria and many fungi, chromosome copy number is usually tightly controlled. One of the possible effects of a change in copy number in humans is cancer.


I get why you don't like the use of those terms (error/abnormality). Genetics has one of the dirtiest legacies of any scientific field, and that's with a lot of stiff competition! But even though there is a lot of nuance to it, I don't think it is a wrong term. There are a lot of checkpoints in the cell specifically designed to prevent changes in chromosome number from happening, and its effects in humans are usually not good.
 
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Andersonson said:
I use the pronounce based on people names. If you are an Eric, i say him. If you are named Claire I say she. Mostly I just use people's names .. And I don't use the cis term either. I use male or female. If someone is trans I would use their name, like I do with everyone I know. If I didn't know the trans person I would most likely use the pronounce which suited his name? I don't see the use for cis/binary stuff. It's either male or female
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And unless you know otherwise it is entirely appropriate to use the pronoun that seem obvious. trans people tend not to take offence to genue mistakes and again imo like to be asked what they prefer if there is any doubt. However, if you have been asked (or know) otherwise when it is just being a cnut. As for not using CIS are there any other adjectives that you avoid? I'd guess that most people who don't like CIS have no problem using trans? To avoid using trans and cis, which are only really used when discussing trans issues, does nothing other than potentially cause confusion or create conflict in those discussions when it is a political stance. To say that there is only male and female, ignoring the difference between biological sex (ignoring intersex cases) and gender, is anti-trans even if you don't think it is. You are denying their exitence in effect. Kindness is a good guide imo.
 
berbatrick said:
All these things are true: (also, I study microbes, so my examples are going to be from there)

Mutations are indeed one of the main ways we get evolution.

They are indeed defined as errors, damage, abnormalities, aberration, etc.

Many mutations are neutral, creating no effect. Some are deleterious, harming the mutant cell/organism. Very few are beneficial. Often this is context-dependent: a mutation that helps a cell grow quicker in a nutrient-rich environment might reduce its survival in stress conditions.

The kinds of mutations you are talking about (XXY, X0, etc)- where an entire chromosome that is extra or missing - are very drastic, and usually harmful in humans (Down's is a classic example). But that is not universally the case: my project right now is understanding how duplication of half a chromosome helps some pathogenic fungi evade antifungal drugs. In the species I worked with previously, we knew for certain that a chromsome deletion or duplication meant almost nothing: its cells had only one chromosome, but carried 15-25 copies of it! A couple more or less made no difference. But in animals and bacteria and many fungi, chromosome copy number is usually tightly controlled. One of the possible effects of a change in copy number in humans is cancer.


I get why you don't like the use of those terms (error/abnormality). Genetics has one of the dirtiest legacies of any scientific field, and that's with a lot of stiff competition! But even though there is a lot of nuance to it, I don't think it is a wrong term. There are a lot of checkpoints specifically designed to prevent changes in chromosome number from happening, and its effects in humans are usually not good.
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I love how non-biologists think that biology and gentics are so clean cut.
 
Wibble said:
I love how non-biologists think that biology and gentics are so clean cut.
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it's a great field because every day you find new and horrifying ideas and applications of it!

a few days back there was a twitter thread from a rancher, who understood from biology and her experience as a rancher, that life's purpose is procreation, hence, everyone not going at it, p in v, raw, is a drain on society and the species (this was, of course, about trans people)
the thread is deleted now, but it started like this.
 
berbatrick said:
it's a great field because every day you find new and horrifying ideas and applications of it!

a few days back there was a twitter thread from a rancher, who understood from biology and her experience as a rancher, that life's purpose is procreation, hence, everyone not going at it, p in v, raw, is a drain on society and the species (this was, of course, about trans people)
the thread is deleted now, but it started like this.
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Interesting take. The logical conclusion is that infertile humans should be kept as pets or eaten. I think we would all find it hard to argue against that logic ;)
 
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