Transgender rights discussion

Wibble said:
Don't be disingenuous. And silliness like your last sentence, an obvious attempt to belittle trans people, won't be tolerated no matter how you try to frame your "argument". Not to mention the silliness of your first sentence. Just knock it off.
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There's nothing I've said that belittles actual trans people. I'm happy to belittle those who have jumped on the trans movement and their allies that refuse to see the distinction.

Changing genders is incredibly hard and brave. How dare the Self-ID muppets trivialise that as they have. These are largely heterosexual, cis-gendered citizens of social media. Trying to force trans people to accept them as representative of their journey and struggle can feck off.

The debate around safe spaces and the rest of it is entirely separate. But the starting point cannot be 'I'm going pretend those that have a medical procedure are the same as those who want up and decide they want different pronouns on their Facebook page' because that is the most insulting to trans people.
 
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It's real sad that the right wing government and press have actually been able to whip up a frenzy of hate towards people who don't feel comfortable in their gender and has got to the point that this is actually a main topic in judging who is best to lead the country, it's like ignoring the subsidence that is happening to your house but freaking out over a picture in your house being crooked
 
Lee565 said:
It's real sad that the right wing government and press have actually been able to whip up a frenzy of hate towards people who don't feel comfortable in their gender and has got to the point that this is actually a main topic in judging who is best to lead the country, it's like ignoring the subsidence that is happening to your house but freaking out over a picture in your house being crooked
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Please don't trivialize my OCD. :nono:
 
Lee565 said:
It's real sad that the right wing government and press have actually been able to whip up a frenzy of hate towards people who don't feel comfortable in their gender and has got to the point that this is actually a main topic in judging who is best to lead the country, it's like ignoring the subsidence that is happening to your house but freaking out over a picture in your house being crooked
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Yep. Over here there's a new law restricting & further marginalizing being trans passed daily by Repiblican governors & Republican state legislators almost daily.
 
Lee565 said:
It's real sad that the right wing government and press have actually been able to whip up a frenzy of hate towards people who don't feel comfortable in their gender and has got to the point that this is actually a main topic in judging who is best to lead the country, it's like ignoring the subsidence that is happening to your house but freaking out over a picture in your house being crooked
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I find these arguments to be slightly one-sided. I highly doubt a lot of people "hate" transpeople.

I think the broader pushback in society has been towards language games such as using "pregnant people" instead of "pregnant mothers", or using the term "birthing people". I know it's a small minority trying to push for these linguistic changes but I wouldn't discount their influence.
 
stw2022 said:
There's nothing TERFY or transphobic to say people who have actually transitioned are not the same as people who self-declare a new (often completely imaginary) genders to win an argument on social media.

Same as I happily distinguish between those who are gay and those who announce they're dashflynsexual-fluid-queer simply because they want to post an argumentative Tweet.

In both cases, one is an actual minority who face barriers and discrimination. The other isn't.

Pretending that making such a distinction is problematic, is the problem
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None of this is happening, and I dare you to prove otherwise.

I mean it's hard to believe you hold any real sympathy for gay or trans people given how willing you are to invoke right-wing lies and caricatures.
 
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VorZakone said:
I find these arguments to be slightly one-sided. I highly doubt a lot of people "hate" transpeople.

I think the broader pushback in society has been towards language games such as using "pregnant people" instead of "pregnant mothers", or using the term "birthing people". I know it's a small minority trying to push for these linguistic changes but I wouldn't discount their influence.
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I wonder if a lot of people don't even think that transpeople are actually "real"? All they do is read Daily Mail news articles that talk about the big scary transpeople coming up from under the floorboards. Transpeople are made out to be some kind of childish nightmare, rather than being just the normal folk that they are. Because, shock horror, transpeople are also people.

My point is; I'd bet my right testicle that the majority of people who openly run around saying "they're polluting kids brains with fecking rainbow flags" have never ever interacted with a single trans person in their life.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
I wonder if a lot of people don't even think that transpeople are actually "real"? All they do is read Daily Mail news articles that talk about the big scary transpeople coming up from under the floorboards. Transpeople are made out to be some kind of childish nightmare, rather than being just the normal folk that they are. Because, shock horror, transpeople are also people.

My point is; I'd bet my right testicle that the majority of people who openly run around saying "they're polluting kids brains with fecking rainbow flags" have never ever interacted with a single trans person in their life.
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Of course they have interacted with them. They just don’t know they did. Which makes this even sadder.
 
Pretending it isn't insulting to actual trans person to say "See that person who has no interest in undergoing the long, life-altering procedure to change their gender as you did to live your life as the gender you've always felt you were, but instead has just 'self-identifed' as the opposite gender? They're the same as you"

As I say, yes there is a WORLD of difference been trans people and those who are cosplaying. At some point the actual transphobia behind Pretending there's not is a conversation nobody is ready for
 
stw2022 said:
Pretending it isn't insulting to actual trans person to say "See that person who has no interest in undergoing the long, life-altering procedure to change their gender as you did to live your life as the gender you've always felt you were, but instead has just 'self-identifed' as the opposite gender? They're the same as you"

As I say, yes there is a WORLD of difference been trans people and those who are cosplaying. At some point the actual transphobia behind Pretending there's not is a conversation nobody is ready for
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@Halftrack has outsourced their reply to me this time
Halftrack said:
None of this is happening, and I dare you to prove otherwise.
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VorZakone said:
I find these arguments to be slightly one-sided. I highly doubt a lot of people "hate" transpeople.

I think the broader pushback in society has been towards language games such as using "pregnant people" instead of "pregnant mothers", or using the term "birthing people". I know it's a small minority trying to push for these linguistic changes but I wouldn't discount their influence.
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This is the right wing attitude towards trans people:



It's not about linguistics.
 
HTG said:
Are you doubting the expertise of the genitalia police?
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:lol: it's strange how everyone in the genitalia police happens to be a dick.
 
NotThatSoph said:
This is the right wing attitude towards trans people:



It's not about linguistics.
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And pretending it is, is patronising towards the people getting riled up because of trans people. They are grown people. They deserve to be held accountable for the things they do and say, the demands they make, the policies they support and the people they support. So I really don’t give a shit what they might or might not actually want. They are supporting policies that are outright cruel and inhumane. They deserve the blame and the criticism that comes with it.
And if they only spout this bs because they get their news out of the daily mail, I have no sympathy either.
They chose this paper as their main source of information. And they did so despite the availability of papers that aren’t as bad. And if that paper happens to be racist, transphobic and so many other horrible things, they chose to enjoy reading that racist, transphobic bullshit.
feck them and their whole hateful and cruel ideology. Stop finding excuses for them.
 
Male genitalia being present in ladies toilets used to be a concern for the actual police at one point.

At some point when do we talk about the psyche of heterosexual men being completely relaxed about the presence of cock being waved about in women's safe spaces?
 
stw2022 said:
Male genitalia being present in ladies toilets used to be a concern for the actual police at one point
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So was the presence of black people in white spaces. See how bad your argument sucks? It’s outright horrible. An embarrassingly bad argument. But to be expected by members of the genitalia police. Reasonable people would probably start questioning their obsession with strangers genitalia. But not you. You happen to be convinced that your weird obsessions should bother other people. It won’t work, gladly.
 
Inappropriate Behavior
How long would a man with an erection need to have self-identifed as a woman to gain access to a female bathroom? Would it have to pre-date the start of the stiffy? Minimum 15 mins buffer? Maybe it's an overnight thing? 48 hours maybe?

The real crime will be the TERF that reports to the store security officer that a man with a boner had just walked in. She can suck my vagina that I'm self-identifying as having until the end of this sentence.
 
stw2022 said:
How long would a man with an erection need to have self-identifed as a woman to gain access to a female bathroom? Would it have to pre-date the start of the stiffy? Minimum 15 mins buffer? Maybe it's an overnight thing? 48 hours maybe?

The real crime will be the TERF that reports to the store security officer that a man with a boner had just walked in. She can suck my vagina that I'm self-identifying as having until the end of this sentence.
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are you alright?
 
stw2022 said:
Male genitalia being present in ladies toilets used to be a concern for the actual police at one point.

At some point when do we talk about the psyche of heterosexual men being completely relaxed about the presence of cock being waved about in women's safe spaces?
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Surely the problem is rapists and creeps, not just a general penis being in the area?
 
Hey young man or lady. You may not enter the WC, until you have solved my riddles three.
The first riddle be: the person on this door happens to wear a skirt, now tell me young man or lady, can your genitalia squirt?
Riddle number two be this: the person on this door is wearing pants, are those worn by ladies or gents?
Oh, I see you have answered my first two riddles. But don’t be too confident. Cause riddle three is much harder, as you see. So answer me this: if going for piss, do you happen to sit, or do you stand and sometimes miss?
Now that you solved the rest, here comes the final test. Show yourself in the nude, cause only then we can verify wether your sex is real, or a wrong packaged deal. But be warned before, if your genitalia are wrong, you might never again enter this store.
 
If a white, heterosexual, able-bodied man decided he wished to be referred to as a black, lesbian, disabled woman, explain why only some of that is offensive
 
stw2022 said:
If a white, heterosexual, able-bodied man decided he wished to be referred to as a black, lesbian, disabled woman, explain why only some of that is offensive
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You've still not provided a single source for your claim that people are pretending to identify as any of this.

Until you do there's zero point in answering any of your made up questions and giving them any form of validation. It's like responding to someone who's asked "when did you stop beating your wife?"
 
Mr Pigeon said:
@Halftrack has outsourced their reply to me this time
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It's funny how some expect to be able to trot out literal right-wing caricatures, propaganda and scaremongering and still sound believable when they claim they support "the real trans folks."
stw2022 said:
"See that person who has no interest in undergoing the long, life-altering procedure to change their gender as you did to live your life as the gender you've always felt you were, but instead has just 'self-identifed' as the opposite gender? They're the same as you"
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Self ID is supposed to help trans people by not requiring years of treatment, surgeries and doctors signing off in order to change their legal gender. If you charge is that floods of people who claim to identify as basketballs and collanders abuse this system to gain access to women's spaces, provide some fecking proof of that happening.

I don't expect you to respond, because you avoid responding to posts that ask you to substantiate your claims.
 
stw2022 said:
There's nothing I've said that belittles actual trans people. I'm happy to belittle those who have jumped on the trans movement and their allies that refuse to see the distinction.

Changing genders is incredibly hard and brave. How dare the Self-ID muppets trivialise that as they have. These are largely heterosexual, cis-gendered citizens of social media. Trying to force trans people to accept them as representative of their journey and struggle can feck off.

The debate around safe spaces and the rest of it is entirely separate. But the starting point cannot be 'I'm going pretend those that have a medical procedure are the same as those who want up and decide they want different pronouns on their Facebook page' because that is the most insulting to trans people.
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Perhaps you should let the trans community decide for themselves what is the most insulting to them? They seem largely content to embrace the "Self-ID muppets", as you put it. Certainly it doesn't seem like quite as pressing a concern as the increasingly loud movement that doesn't want them to exist in the first place.

stw2022 said:
At some point when do we talk about the psyche of heterosexual men being completely relaxed about the presence of cock being waved about in women's safe spaces?
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What does this even mean?
 
Never takes long for them to abandon all pretence of 'reason' and going full lunatic bigot.
 
The idea that there's beef between trans people who have undergone gender affirmation surgery and those who haven't (or who have decided to undergo fewer of the various surgeries/treatments that come under that umbrella) would be laughable to 99.99% of trans people. It is absolutely inconceivable that you could spend any considerable amount of time around trans people and come away from it thinking that the community isn't massively in favour of self-ID.
 
NotThatSoph said:
This is the right wing attitude towards trans people:



It's not about linguistics.
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And what about the attitude of non-right wingers? I know from anectodal experience people who are not concerned with right-wing ideology but they post clips of Matt Walsh' "what is a woman" movie, making fun of people who avoid that question.

In other words, I don't see pushback only from right-wingers.
 
VorZakone said:
And what about the attitude of non-right wingers? I know from anectodal experience people who are not concerned with right-wing ideology but they post clips of Matt Walsh' "what is a woman" movie, making fun of people who avoid that question.

In other words, I don't see pushback only from right-wingers.
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Those people are called right-wingers. Or dim.
 
VorZakone said:
And what about the attitude of non-right wingers? I know from anectodal experience people who are not concerned with right-wing ideology but they post clips of Matt Walsh' "what is a woman" movie, making fun of people who avoid that question.

In other words, I don't see pushback only from right-wingers.
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I think that when we count up the right wingers it's already a lot of people, which was the threshold.
 
stw2022 said:
There's nothing I've said that belittles actual trans people. I'm happy to belittle those who have jumped on the trans movement and their allies that refuse to see the distinction.

Changing genders is incredibly hard and brave. How dare the Self-ID muppets trivialise that as they have. These are largely heterosexual, cis-gendered citizens of social media. Trying to force trans people to accept them as representative of their journey and struggle can feck off.

The debate around safe spaces and the rest of it is entirely separate. But the starting point cannot be 'I'm going pretend those that have a medical procedure are the same as those who want up and decide they want different pronouns on their Facebook page' because that is the most insulting to trans people.
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I'd say that all trans people self-identify and only some go on with varying degrees of medical intervention.

That you seem to have invented a whole cohort who are pretending to be trans to access women's toilets is very odd. That you only think that people are trans if they have surgery or medical intervention odder still.

I'd say that it might be insulting to have my identity questioned by some bloke on the internet based on his own straw man argument.
 
Self-identity is fine until it comes with demands based on that self-identity. If someone wants to live - present if you will - as a different gender, then fine. I think there is an issue with demands based on that. And I think the dismissal of women's concerns about what it means about their safe spaces is barely hidden misogyny. It's telling that in an overwhelmingly male space that a football forum inevitably is, the concerns that some women have over this is close to unanimously dismissed.

It really does show male indifference to the fears women have. Accept male born people in your safe spaces if that male born person declares their entitlement to be there. Still hopeful at some point there'll be a moment where the penny drops and the underlying misogyny of that reality is recognised.
 
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stw2022 said:
Self-identity is fine until it comes with demands based on that self-identity. If someone wants to live - present if you will - as a different gender, then fine. I think there is an issue with demands based on that. And I think the dismissal of women's concerns about what it means about their safe spaces is barely hidden misogyny. It's telling that in an overwhelmingly male space that a football forum inevitably is, the concerns that some women have over this is close to unanimously dismissed.

It really does show male indifference to the fears women have. Accept male born people in your safe spaces if that male born person declares their entitlement to be there. Still hopeful at some point there'll be a moment where the penny drops and the underlying misogyny of that reality is recognised.
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This is the third time you try this tactic, and you'll probably ignore once again that women are more supportive of trans people than men are in basically every single way, and that includes who should be in women's spaces.

You're trying the same thing as that guy who kept going on about women and lesbians, until it was revealed that he was a very sexist Ben Shapiro fan. You're using it as a shield for your own opinion. Just like you did when you claimed that it would be better for trans people to not be a part of the "LGB" community: you want to drop the T, so you baselessly make up that the Ts should drop themselves. Just stand by your own opinions for once.
 
stw2022 said:
Self-identity is fine until it comes with demands based on that self-identity. If someone wants to live - present if you will - as a different gender, then fine. I think there is an issue with demands based on that. And I think the dismissal of women's concerns about what it means about their safe spaces is barely hidden misogyny. It's telling that in an overwhelmingly male space that a football forum inevitably is, the concerns that some women have over this is close to unanimously dismissed.

It really does show male indifference to the fears women have. Accept male born people in your safe spaces if that male born person declares their entitlement to be there. Still hopeful at some point there'll be a moment where the penny drops and the underlying misogyny of that reality is recognised.
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I'm sure trans people will be grateful that you allow them to self identify as long as it can be dismissed if it has any practical meaning.

And I don't know a single woman who cares at all about trans women using a female designated bathroom. They do however hate it that many decisions in life are influenced by the fear of mens' behaviour e.g. walking alone after dark.
 
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Crudely, until recently, most Brits idea of a transgender woman was Hayley in Coronation Street - and only a monster wouldn't accept her as a woman. The reality has been that someone who "passes" as a woman is largely accepted, someone who doesn't is in danger of (at best) ridicule and at worst outright abuse and violence.

The Tories and their press are playing culture war games and currently those are working on significant numbers of the population.

Most trans-women choose not to have surgery - I think this has surprised many people and they're still trying to understand what gender transition means. Self-ID has become ammunition in the story, mostly because it gets connected to the idea of automatic legally enforceable rights of access to women only spaces - like refuges and prisons. In reality, because of safeguarding requirements, the chances are they can already act on a case by case basis, even if they need further support (financial or otherwise) to do it.

Just as background, a survey on where the UK population were last year (with a lot of don't knows) before the Tories really got into their culture wars campaign:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society...-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights
 
People are, rightly, supportive of trans rights. Both men and persons who menstrate. The issues pushed to the forefront have very little to do with trans rights
 
stw2022 said:
People are, rightly, supportive of trans rights. Both men and persons who menstrate. The issues pushed to the forefront have very little to do with trans rights
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I agree with two out of three sentences there.

But I have zero idea what you're getting at (or what argument you're trying to provoke) with that phrase, "Both men and persons who menstrate." Are you making some kind of weird joke about not saying the word women or are you actually choosing to ignore people who don't fit neatly into those categories?
 
stw2022 said:
How long would a man with an erection need to have self-identifed as a woman to gain access to a female bathroom? Would it have to pre-date the start of the stiffy? Minimum 15 mins buffer? Maybe it's an overnight thing? 48 hours maybe?

The real crime will be the TERF that reports to the store security officer that a man with a boner had just walked in. She can suck my vagina that I'm self-identifying as having until the end of this sentence.
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WTF
 
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