Well said. All those people just use whatever event to go crazy. The same is in France, where it needed one little incident, and the streets were burning. Its that hate and that willingness to destroy that causes these riots and I hope they get punished for hurting ppl and destroying their lives
UK Riots (with the exception of Manchester which has its own thread)
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Well said. All those people just use whatever event to go crazy. The same is in France, where it needed one little incident, and the streets were burning. Its that hate and that willingness to destroy that causes these riots and I hope they get punished for hurting ppl and destroying their lives
The army, due to their mission, has to shoot as ultima ratio. Which means they have to shoot at their own ppl, and that is definately not something you want. So it is very critical how to deal with the riots
Yup, sadly you're right. They're devoid of any moral fibre.
Without a doubt, Mark Duggan, the chap who was shot, has nothing to do with this now. I'm just amazed at the speed at which this has spread. Social networks have facilitated this massively.
The Jails are full, plenty of railings they can handcuff them to. Strip them to their underwear and carry on sweeping the streets. Anyone caught out in it, tough luck, they can then finally come back to let them go and process them once they've regained the streets, and I'm including the children in this.
They don't have the manpower to do much more at times, even with 6,000 police on the streets of London.
Containment and surveillance are an important part of the operation.
You all seem to be missing the point that this can be about consumerism and social exclusion.
It's the former that drives these kids to break into shops rather than government building but the latter that creates hordes of disenfranchised youths who spend their life accustomed to lawlessness and violence and have nothing to lose by going on a rampage.
As I said a few posts back, consumerism is endemic amongst all strata of contemporary society but the kids running amok all live in the poorest, most run-down parts of London. Coincidence?
Confirmed.England game called off
I did not say the army had to shoot anybody and they dont have to shoot anybody.
A presence on the streets to help out the over stretched Police would help.
The trouble is that they won't and the perpetrators know that.
You're talking about people with largely nothing to lose and most will only get a slap on the wrist if they get caught.
Look at this -
Thats actually bang on.
Lets remember here, these people may be from relatively disadvantaged backgrounds and be on the wrong side of the wealth divide, but they're not taking stuff that will better their lives in the long term or which will redress that divide, they're taking cool trainers, xboxes and flatscreen TV's... stuff, in pursuit of instant gratification...
It might be part of the cause. Which is very different from an excuse. And I also have zero sympathy for anyone involved with looting and rioting. I'd say that the police response has been very restrained so far, probably too restrained.
I see where you're coming from Pogue, but am I wrong in thinking that there has been looting going on in relatively affluent areas such as Clapham?
Exactly, makes me laugh when people say namby pamby stuff like that... it has zero effect. They couldn't give a flying feck.
The root causes for this are not social exclusion, for me its this instant gratification/look at me sort of society which has escalated during the past 10-15 years with the rise of Sky, Internet with the likes of Facebook/myspace/youtube, Iphone/Blackberry, consumerism in general sort of society.
Kids just don't live in the real world anymore, they live in a virtual one and whilst for some their parents and family's have still managed to protect them and bring them up soundly, many have been neglected by their parents and not been instilled with the right values and what have you. This happy slapping, youtubing fights/riots, pics of getting shagged on a night out sort of society, its rife in urban Britain and this current generation are proof that without proper safeguards and education about the evils of social media/consumerism/materialism, society will suffer as a result.
Its about both of those things and far more, as I asked last night, if its just social exclusion then why aren't all the kids from those areas involved?
Here's something radical and which I'll no doubt be lambasted for, but there is a responsibility on parents to raise their kids with values around respect, & community involvement, which seems to have been abandoned across society, its given way to view the only important attribute as being how much money you can accrue and how much stuff you can own. This has replaced any idea of gaining gratification or satisfaction from your relationships the people around you, be that in your family or in your community.
We dont teach kids how to interact anymore, or how to be good, we give them a gameboy or stick them in front of a TV to keep them quiet, they develop relationships with this 'stuff' as a result.
Raising kids with values which encourage them to be contributing members of society is the responsibility of parents, regardless of class divides or hardships.
The looting is taking place all over the place but you can bet your arse the kids doing the looting almost all live in tower blocks and sink estates.
Dont blame jobs!
Blame bad parenting
Blame bad parenting
Me saying they should feel ashamed isn't intended to have any effect on them. It was just me expressing my feelings.
With all due respect, your verbose ramblings on the ills of society are even more pointless.
So what?
It is no fecking excuse/reason to go and trash the shops etc.
Thousands of people live in tower blocks and sink estates and they weren't on the streets.
Some people are scum. Have zero respect. Have no intention of living within the law.
Simple.
I bet there are a shit load of kids from 'normal' housing doing it also. It's not a demographic problem, more a social problem as someone said above. A large part of them doing what ever the feck they like, is a reflection on the weak nature of the law.
Actually to be fair it's obvious that most of the trouble makers are the hoodrats, but my point is there are a lot of the normal kids just getting involved for the 'crack' of it.
Bring back National Service
That would install some discipline in the youth of today
That would install some discipline in the youth of today
No, I put it down to the rise of the gangland culture that permeates the thoughts and actions of children in the poorest areas. I've worked for 8 years with teenagers from the poorest areas of Manchester, training, teaching them and the first thing we had to do was break through the idea that they hard done by, society was against them and make them realise that the option of seeing themselves as a victim of social exclusion was down to themselves. True it may be tougher for them than rich kids but thats life and unless you try and break the mold yourself then you are creating your reality. The kids who actualy made a success of this were the ones that accepted it and broke away from their old habits. Whilst the pressure of being involved in the activities of their peers in the area is incredibly strong the drive to try and actually work at things is non existent. These kids looting on the streets of London are still the minority of kids from their area be they poor or not. The poorer classes in the UK went from the salt of the earth to some bastardised version of American gang culture.
Oh dear
Yes, well in a way what you said does mean something.. i.e. 'they should feel ashamed', but the fact is they don't, and we as a society have to answer the question, why is it that they don't feel ashamed, why do they take no heed of the social norms of a civilised society?
My ramblings were at least an explanation as to what caused or causes this level of social disruption, its better to try to look for the root causes and seek to safeguard against them, rather than just sitting on our arses and saying, they should feel ashamed and expect these thugs to ask for repentance and give all the looted gear back. My dig about 'ashamed' wasn't directly aimed at you, I've read it across newspapers regarding the riots and it just goes to showcase how the so called intellectuals in society are so out of touch with the urban youth mentality of today.
My ramblings were at least an explanation as to what caused or causes this level of social disruption, its better to try to look for the root causes and seek to safeguard against them, rather than just sitting on our arses and saying, they should feel ashamed and expect these thugs to ask for repentance and give all the looted gear back. My dig about 'ashamed' wasn't directly aimed at you, I've read it across newspapers regarding the riots and it just goes to showcase how the so called intellectuals in society are so out of touch with the urban youth mentality of today.
I see from your Oh Dear , you think it is a bad idea.
I'm inclined to agree with you Marching.
Pogue's explanation, whilst understandable, seems a little bit like letting them off the hook. As though they can be absolved of blame because they live in a shit hole, or don't have much money.
Being poor shouldn't automatically translate to having no decency.
'Social deprivation' is being used as an excuse of gratuitous theft. It's disgusting.
watching a women being interview on Sky now and she just said , they are teenagers and dont know what they are doing .
UTTER BOLLOCKS they know exactly what they are doing.
UTTER BOLLOCKS they know exactly what they are doing.
Absolutely and I think the trouble here is that a lot of these kids are the by product of a generation that embodies a lot of those characteristics already.
I keep seeing people asking where the parents are in all this. Well they're sat at home watching X Factor, or down the pub spending their benefit money. They most likely don't care or if they do now, realise it's too late to do anything about it. I doubt a lot of them planned on having children for anything more than a state handout. It's a means to an end.
This is a generation of disenfranchised youth born from a generation of disenfranchised youth. It's a depressingly cyclical state of affairs.
couldnt have said it better myself
Why "Oh dear" ?
Reports state that the police have been ordered to back off. Seriously?!?
Can you imagine the Australians doing that!!
We open our borders, give people homes and benefits, health care and a safe place to live, and THIS is our thanks...... will we ever learn
Can you imagine the Australians doing that!!
We open our borders, give people homes and benefits, health care and a safe place to live, and THIS is our thanks...... will we ever learn
This is actually a significant part of the problem.... they're not responsible, they're victims of their environment, of the class the divide. Some of their parents are 'victims' of drug and alcohol.... its all outside their control.
This is 2011 not the 1940s
I answered this last night by saying there's no one, simple explanation. The question is irrelevant too. It has absolutely no bearing on whether or not social exclusion is a factor in the kids who do go out rioting.
It's the same flawed logic as saying smoking doesn't cause heart disease because not everyone who smokes will die of a heart attack
That's all well and good but meaningless to the single mum who's addicted to crack cocaine, or the kid who is forced to carry a knife from the age of eight to protect himself. Poverty and social exclusion fecks whole communities up. It's a bit glib to try and pretend that all their problems would melt away if only they were better parents.
still fail to see your point.
A lot on the streets last night choose that way of life because it gets them what they want...they don't work because robbing/mugging achieves the same without the hardship of being at work 8-5.
It's a huge insult to the 1,000's who turn their lives around despite facing the same hardships that these supposed hard done by hooligans do.
Thanks to people like gambit28 it is possible to turn their backs on gangs and get back on the right side of the law...
Well exactly.
And that gang culture is most common amongst the most under-privileged kids of Britain and America. Why do you think that might be?
Obviously, gang culture is the worst possible way to break the cycle but it's a response to being reared in ghettos, where the only way to ensure personal safety is to join a gang so someone else can have your back. It's fecked up but it's a direct result of poverty and social exclusion.
I agree about the parents , but to say they dont know what they are doing is just wrong.
Its far easier to blame other people than to work hard to change your situation. If left to their own devices, the vast majority will be lazy
Sounds like you're doing great work their. Keep it up, and always be proud of trying to make a difference