If by fail you mean winning the Bundesliga, German cup and reaching the CL final, Winning La Liga twice and the Cope Del Ray and UEFA super cup then sure he failed.
United linked with van Gaal in the meeja
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this man has 'failed' by winning things with both Barcelona and Bayern and to be honest its time we started looking at the sort of manager these great clubs looked at and employed. He's a winner. and he takes no shit. perfect for us right now
When van Gaal turned up at Barcelona they hadn't won La Liga in four seasons. He then won two consecutively.
Van Gaals record and philosophy suggest to me at this moment in time, from our history and going forwards after the two years. There is no one better suited.
@SolidState talking a lot of sense here to be fair. Pep may have seemed like a god at Barca but he had Messi at his disposal. As witnessed this season, you can have so much possession in a game but without that extra bit of flair, it's hard to break down defensive teams. That's why Bayern have struggled this season against top teams (hell even we managed to keep them at bay at OT)
Although I think it would be incredibly unwise to write off Pep, LvG does seem to be a safer bet for us in the short term.
Although I think it would be incredibly unwise to write off Pep, LvG does seem to be a safer bet for us in the short term.
Harsh to say Van Gaal failed at those jobs but it is true that his stints there very quickly ended in failure, which isn't quite the same thing but is worrying nonetheless. The second stint at Barca and his first stint as Netherlands coach were fairly disastrous and his time at Bayern was massively disappointing overall. That's without mentioning his short lived second spell at Ajax.
Let's not kid ourselves just because we're linked with him, he has a very spotty track record. However, with so few alternatives...
Let's not kid ourselves just because we're linked with him, he has a very spotty track record. However, with so few alternatives...
I happen to think otherwise. Pep still has a lot to do to convince me personally that he's is the genius he's made out to be. I saw a man with no clue what to do when it was all going wrong around him the other night. He's had an excellent season with Bayern and his time with Barca was stunning but he's still found himself managing the two best teams in the world at that moment in time not to mention an individual phenomenon in the form of Lionel Messi who helped him along the way.
I am one of the ones who wants van Gaal here, and think he is the best option but we need to be realistic.
You are selective with your evidence or you haven't followed van Gaal's career. He has in general started of good at most clubs, then people turn on him and he fails to replicate the initial success and instead falls of. Barcelona were three points of relegation in his last stint there when he got fired.
The Netherlands failed to qualify to the WC for the first time since 1986 when he was there, which was why he had to go.
At Bayern he went from a successful season to ending up third in the Bundesliga and leaving CL in the first knock-out round - which resulted in him getting sacked.
So his only successful stints, that hasn't seen him end up failing for one reason or another is Ajax, AZ, Holland(stint 2),
That makes him very inconsistent as a manager, he may turn United in to the best team in the world for a long time, he may turn United in to a one season wonder to then finish outside the CL spots. Simply no way of knowing with van Gaal, he really is a manager you can't predict in any ways.
Hopefully having no DoF will work for him rather than against, if that is the case I can see him loving it here. But it isn't as if he has been consistently great in terms of results, but off the pitch conflicts had him sacked. Rather his conflicts turned against him on the pitch.
All the more reason that a 2 year contract is a good idea, seems like he is quick out of the blocks, which is what we need for next season, if things drop off after that, his contract is only 2 years anyway. A rolling 1 year renewal will mean we are never at risk of being stuck with him if it doesn't work out a few years down the line.
I agree, I mean when they went 2 down what exactly was his reaction? he simply kept going as if magically it would instantly change and hed suceed, perhaps you can do that when you have Messi, Xavi and Iniesta but it was shocking to see him somewhat baffled and stumped at his own home ground.
This is my stance too. van Gaal is one of my favorite managers and has been since his time at Ajax which is one of my favorite sides ever. But there is no way van Gaal is a safe option, certain to succeed long term with no chance of the players and board falling out with him.
He is an all or nothing kind of manager. Most likely to turn a team in to a success, but also very likely to see it end in in a fall-out which leads to very poor results.
i've read that Van Gaal plays a 433, but surely 433 doesn't really fit with the likes of Rooney (particularly if RVP starts as the main striker), Mata and Kagawa. do we think he will adjust his tactics to the players we have or vice versa?
So Van Gaal wins 6 major honours with Bayern Munich and Barcelona in 5.5 seasons and some people deem him a failure?!?
People have such absurd expectations for the game these days.
People have such absurd expectations for the game these days.
Your stance is not the same though. You posted that he failed in his spell at Barcelona after leaving Ajax when he delivered two La Liga titles and finished runners up once. Saying that is a failure is insane.
Pretty much this
As with all things in football there is a particular grey area in both these examples, Van Gaal has a reputation of playing players that suit the system and the team rather than pandering to a superstar hence is multiple fallings out. From what Ive read it seems almost the entire Barca team werent happy when he wanted to drop Carlos and he sold some superstar players and essentially ended their careers at the top level resulting in a player revolt and a mess on the pitch. For a manager with as much experience and accolades as him there is always bound to be some negatives. Even Jose was considered a failure at Madrid bizzarely hence him getting the chop, Ancelotti was considered a failure at Chelsea, Benitez as well. Every manager has ups and downs.
He doesn't have a tactic set in stone. He has played 4-2-3-1, 3-4-3 and 4-3-3 depending on which players he has at his hands. He has a basic philosophy, he wants to play possession football, so he won't adapt to any players not suited for that style.
So if he believes Rooney can suit this style of possession football then he will adjust for Rooney's strengths if Rooney of course adjusts to the team as van Gaal wishes.
You could probably beat it until your arms fall off mate and it wouldn't even make a dent with some people.
Indeed, keeping the dressing room in check is part of being a manager and it is no excuse if you lose it. His failures is nowhere near Real Madrid's "failures" under Mourinho - when van Gaal fails he can turn a league winning team in to the relegation zone within a season.
His heights are incredibly, but when he falls his lows are equally spectacular. I believe and hope him not having to work with a BoF will be positive for him, the players should be used to very strict managers as Moyes and SAF were of similar style. There is also the fact that he may know this is his last chance as a top manager, and if he makes it at United we would let him work until he is 70 as long as it is working well.
On the negative side we have a lot of players who are possibly not wanted in his style of play. His initial time here will be handling the Rooney/RVP drama and the class of 92 and their future roles. So it is possible as well that solving all these conflicts will leave a bitter after-taste even if I think stepping in after Moyes will have most players loving him.
@septic
Yeah, there's a good article here making that point.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/may/16/louis-van-gaal-bayern-munich
From the article -
You can also add 4-2-3-1 to that mix as he played at Bayern.
Haters.
They could not find one flaw in pep in the last 5 years. Once he loses a match, they say he has no plan B. What plan B can you use againt a counter attacking team with the pace and power of real Madrid? Once you try to go forward, you will expose spaces for Ronaldo, Bale, Benzema and Di Maria yo squeee into. Where was all this criticism in the last 5 years where he won basically everything.
A message to Bayern: you knew what you got yourself into with pep, you can't change a whole different philosophy in a year and expect to win the treble again. This is your fault amd you have to stick to Pep's vision now. The team will only get better next season with new players that compliment Pep'a style. Thiago was immense under Pep in the first half of the season and he brought him in.
Yes... but add Ronaldo and Di Maria into the mix and there's no stopping them.
Give me a break. I did well writing that on a phone.
4-3-1-2?
De Gea
Rfeal-Smalling-Jones-Evra/Shaw?
Valencia-Carrick/Kroos?-Januzaj/Reus?
Mata-Kagawa/Rooney
RVP/Muller?Cavani?
Would suit his 4-3-3 philosophy with the right personel.Rfeal-Smalling-Jones-Evra/Shaw?
Valencia-Carrick/Kroos?-Januzaj/Reus?
Mata-Kagawa/Rooney
RVP/Muller?Cavani?
Madness! Lets say for arguments sake you did replace Carrick with Kroos and had the rest of those players. Do you really think a midfield trio of Valencia-Kroos-Januzaj/Reus would make any sense at all? Kroos is more of an attacking CM, not known for his defensive duties. The players either side of him are basically wingers... We would get torn apart. When you have a midfield trio in front of the defenders you would assume the likes of Kroos-Carvalho-Strootman if we brought them in. They would solidify the team whilst adding a bit of creativity. The forward players in front then do their work.
His record isn't perfect. There's good and bad. He did finish 11th in his third season with AZ but on the other hand he won their first title in nearly 30 years, only lost out on a second title on the last game of the season and in the other season finished second.
He's had good seasons and he's had bad but hasn't every manager?
Ancelotti won nothing at Parma, nothing (of note, exlcuding the Intertoto Cup) at Juventus. He spent 8 years at Milan and won one league title. He won the league with Chelsea and then lead them to their lowest points total since 2003. Yes is won the Spanish cup and may well win the CL but will possibly also lead Real to their lowest league finish in a decade.
And anyone who doesn't believe Ancelotti is a top class coach should rethink, but you can pick holes in pretty much anyone's record.
He's had good seasons and he's had bad but hasn't every manager?
Ancelotti won nothing at Parma, nothing (of note, exlcuding the Intertoto Cup) at Juventus. He spent 8 years at Milan and won one league title. He won the league with Chelsea and then lead them to their lowest points total since 2003. Yes is won the Spanish cup and may well win the CL but will possibly also lead Real to their lowest league finish in a decade.
And anyone who doesn't believe Ancelotti is a top class coach should rethink, but you can pick holes in pretty much anyone's record.
thanks, interesting article.
possession and attacking would fit the likes of Kagawa and Mata. Rooney is obviously going to be the interesting story next season. he's the likeliest candidate to react to Van Gaal, and his position in the team is probably the most under threat. if Van Gaal wants him to play as a 10, and Rooney does his usual wandering around and coming deep thing, he won't stand for it. it will be the most interesting subplot, hence why the papers are already starting on it, even if at this stage it's all just conjecture.
LvG is a failure, Mourinho is a failure, apparently Guardiola is also now a failure, and lets not forget our own SAF was a failure for hiring Moyes - who himself is the king of failures. Basically the entire human race is a failure and hence we should all do ourselves a favour by wiping ourselves out via mass ritual suicide.
What a failure of a post.
Can i just add your location is a failure too
Ancelotti is just a flavour of the week/season manager. He has like you say a really poor league record with 3 titles in 20 years, constantly managing top clubs who player wise should have lead to much more than only 3 titles. His ability as a cup manager are unquestionable though, but I rate the importance of constant league success a lot higher than winning one title every decade while doing good in the cups.
van Gaal is brilliant in both the league and the cups when he is doing good.
I agree I ain't impressed by Pep Guardiola and I wouldn't want him as our coach to be honest. Barca fitted his playing style like a glove, he was raised in their football philosphy and as a catalan the people and players adored him. He only knows how to play football one way and unless you get a team filled with the best midfielders and somebody like Messi who can make difference versus any time anytime, I'am not sure it works. He was so blessed with the players he had a Barca, he was a great fit for them and they were a great for him, I don't think it will ever work out for him at an another club like it worked out for him there. His next job he took up, also wans't a challenging one, Bayern with such a set of top players and in such a weak competition, it is no wonder he played champions so early on, not really a measure of strenght to be honest, they simply had no serious opposition. Yet in the CL he nearly got shown out by us (in this state) and he got toally humiliated by Real Madrid. Tactically he is not the strongest coach, as I said he only knows one way to play football and it has often been shown by other teams that isn't the most diffiuclt to defeat. You can just see how his tactics aren't a perfect fit for a team like Bayern (unlike it was for Barca), you can see how the players struggle with this, how the public and important club figures don't like this style of football because it doesn't fit in with the mindset of German football and the Bayern traditions. Pep always takes his philosphy to far and tries to impose this style to much on his team instead of finding a good balance. At barca it worked great because those players were drenched in the same philosphy and he had the ideal skills to play such football, at bayern you can see how this isn't the case and how needs to adept and overchange to many things to make it work and in the end it proves uneffective versus a team that plays well in a tactic that neutralises this. You can imagine how if he ever came to United, he would try to do the same thing, possession minded football, but he wouldn't have the players to make it work, he would overchange and overadept us into weird lign ups to force it upon us and it wouldn't work and I think we would lose alot of games playing boring uneffective football to be honest. Pep is very perculiar coach and I think he'd only fit for a team that aspires to be like Barcelona (and you need top players for that like they have at Barca), everything else isn't a good fit for him. Hence why I think he wouldn't be a good fit for us.
LVG plays total football aswell, but he isn't so blind to everything else and not so fanatic about it as Pep. Alot of Peps style is based on the coaching he saw from LVG (he said so himself), yet it feels like Pep is to radical and to fanatic about it, probablly because he never had coaching or playing experience anywhere else than at Barcelona. I think LVG has the experience and knowledge to make it work at england, as long as you respect him and can work with his difficult character, Pep on the other hand isn't flexible enough in his thinking, he is too narrowminded and too perfectionist to come up with a tactic that would work well in the PL given our players (and the ones we could bring in this summer). Pep won about as much as LVG in his career, perhaps even more, but how much of that comes from being able to coach a team that is a perfect fit for him, rather than being an excellent coach ? I don't think Pep would have done aswell as LVG if he had to work under the same circumstances as him, if he needed to make changes and adpatations like LVG has had to make, every time Pep is challenged on this area, he has usually failed and his choice of clubs also shows he is afraid to search for those kind of challenges. Unless he proves he can turn around a difficult team to become a great team, without having the best players in the world and without being it a perfect fit for his narrowminded philosphy, I'am not convinced he is such a great coach.
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Wall of text crits for 9000.
We got him yet? All's quiet on the western front
Ferran Soriano comments if anybody cares (back in March, before your interest was known):
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Manchester City chief executive Ferran Soriano has sparked a potential row with neighbours United after claiming their prospective new coach Louis van Gaal has a habit of turning players against him. United are on the verge of agreeing terms with Dutch veteran Van Gaal and hope to confirm him as the long-term replacement for David Moyes next Wednesday.
However, City’s Spanish chief executive Soriano, who worked at one of Van Gaal’s former clubs Barcelona, believes the 62-year-old is a confrontational coach who risks alienating players wherever he works. Soriano said: “If you treat your people badly, they remember. One day you make an error and they kill you. I’ve seen this in many clubs.
“Louis van Gaal has been a very good coach in many clubs but his style is very difficult. The same thing happened to him in Barcelona as in Bayern Munich. He is very tough, people don’t like him, but he wins. And one day you don’t win — and when you don’t win, everybody that is angry with you will come back to you and try to kill you. In the movies this works, in real life it doesn’t.”
Van Gaal, currently coach of the Netherlands national team, had two spells at Barcelona. His second ended when he was sacked in January 2003. Soriano joined the club later that year and stayed until 2008. Soriano made his comments at a conference in March, before he knew about United’s interest in Van Gaal. He added: “Before you decide how to manage your team, decide what they need. Do you need to be more direct? Do you need to delegate more? Do you need to be more of a coach? Are you able to manage people? How much do you know about your job? How can you be a leader if you don’t manage people well and don’t know what you are talking about?”
Soriano also said in his 2011 book Goal: The Ball Doesn’t Go In By Chance: “Louis van Gaal has won titles with different teams, big and small, and he’s thought to have little empathy and social skills. I couldn’t help but smile when I heard Uli Hoeness, Bayern Munich’s [then] technical director, explain why Van Gaal wouldn’t continue to coach the Bavarian team: ‘Van Gaal doesn’t listen, it has to be whatever he says’. It seems his reputation is justified.”
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Manchester City chief executive Ferran Soriano has sparked a potential row with neighbours United after claiming their prospective new coach Louis van Gaal has a habit of turning players against him. United are on the verge of agreeing terms with Dutch veteran Van Gaal and hope to confirm him as the long-term replacement for David Moyes next Wednesday.
However, City’s Spanish chief executive Soriano, who worked at one of Van Gaal’s former clubs Barcelona, believes the 62-year-old is a confrontational coach who risks alienating players wherever he works. Soriano said: “If you treat your people badly, they remember. One day you make an error and they kill you. I’ve seen this in many clubs.
“Louis van Gaal has been a very good coach in many clubs but his style is very difficult. The same thing happened to him in Barcelona as in Bayern Munich. He is very tough, people don’t like him, but he wins. And one day you don’t win — and when you don’t win, everybody that is angry with you will come back to you and try to kill you. In the movies this works, in real life it doesn’t.”
Van Gaal, currently coach of the Netherlands national team, had two spells at Barcelona. His second ended when he was sacked in January 2003. Soriano joined the club later that year and stayed until 2008. Soriano made his comments at a conference in March, before he knew about United’s interest in Van Gaal. He added: “Before you decide how to manage your team, decide what they need. Do you need to be more direct? Do you need to delegate more? Do you need to be more of a coach? Are you able to manage people? How much do you know about your job? How can you be a leader if you don’t manage people well and don’t know what you are talking about?”
Soriano also said in his 2011 book Goal: The Ball Doesn’t Go In By Chance: “Louis van Gaal has won titles with different teams, big and small, and he’s thought to have little empathy and social skills. I couldn’t help but smile when I heard Uli Hoeness, Bayern Munich’s [then] technical director, explain why Van Gaal wouldn’t continue to coach the Bavarian team: ‘Van Gaal doesn’t listen, it has to be whatever he says’. It seems his reputation is justified.”
Wonder how Mancini feels about that.
Fergie didn't really come to United managing massive players though did he? There were egos and there was a drinking culture, but he wasn't handling Rooney, van Persie, Rio, Evra etc.
And those words on Simeone aren't mine, but rather someone in Spain who'd know.
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