Sorry to bring this high brow discussion down a peg, but I just couldn't help noticing how much he looked like the muppets character 'Beaker'.
United linked with van Gaal in the meeja
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Sorry to bring this high brow discussion down a peg, but I just couldn't help noticing how much he looked like the muppets character 'Beaker'.
So van Gaal has failed everywhere he goes, Ancelotti is flavour of the month - maybe we need a list of managers who aren't crap to compare?
It's just good to know that RedCafe will be ready with ammunition for the "X Out!" posts the second the manager is appointed.
I really respect both Pep and Mourinho but i don't see them as a good fit for us. Both are in terms od trophies won in last 10-5 years the best managers at the moment. But i don't like their philosophy and i don't think there philosophy will be right for our players. I also think that both are struggling when their teams are loosing.
Pep philosophy concetrate to much on possesion and he lack any alternatives when his sistem is not working. We don't have the players which will be able to replicate his Barcelona side and i think the main reason for him going to Bayern was that Bayern had quallity and Pep though that with this quallity he could replicate his Barcelona side. But he fall short because they don't have as much individual quallity as his Barcelona side had. I'm not writting off Pep but it will be a real test for him if he could adapt his philosophy to the player which he have at his disposal at Bayern. So far Heynckes was doing better job last year.
Mourinho on the other hand concetrate to much on defending and not getting a goal and on fast counter attacks. It's nothing wrong with this philosophy as long as you have good defense and quick powerfull attacking players and deadly striker. And he don't have deadly striker at Chelsea and i think this will cost him a league and it costed him the CL final in my opinion. He made a big mistake that he didn't brought in good striker in the summer even more if you think that Falcao and Cavani were on the trasfer list of their clubs. And about us. At the moment our defense is not the best and our attacking options are not good in counter attacking football. They are just to slow.
Both Pep and Mourinho are really going to far with their own tactics and if the team is not build like they want they don't deliver expected results. This is not as much a criticism of their philosophy as it is scepticism that they will bring us results as we wanted in the short term. Also even if their philosophy with right players bring trophies i think that their teams play boring football and i don't want this kind of football at United.
And Ancelotti as someone said before me is just a manager who is in the spotlight because he have a quallity player at his disposal and he made it work. We don't have as much quallity as Madrid team have and with the likes of Ronaldo, Bale and di Maria (and Benzema but i don't think that Benzema in vital part of this team) his italian counter attacking football is tearing europe appart. But we don't have as quick attacking players as Real and Ancelotti would struggle to get us playing on similar level as Real is playing. And domestically it looks like he will fail to win a league once more.
Van Gaal on the other hand usually get the most out of the players at his disposal and adapt his system to the players. He have his philosophy but he can make it work in many sistems and formations. And as i said as long as he don't fall out with the players and the board he is best option possible. The only one who is better at the moment for us is Klopp but he would not want to leave Dortmund.
And about van Gaal sacking at Bayern.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/9453228.stm
"It all started getting messy when he [Van Gaal] dropped Hans-Jorg Butt and replaced him with Thomas Kraft,"-Uli Hoeness. He was sacked because he didn't like Butt but Butt was not a good goalkepper to be fair. At that time Kraft was a promising young goalkepper and van Gaal tried to give him a chance. Bayern board didn't like it and they didn't rate Kraft so they decided to buy Neuer without agreement with van Gaal. But Neuer was hated by Bayern fans when he was at Schalke. I think van Gaal told the press that Bayern board want to buy Neuer and fans didn't like it so it all started to fall appart. But board started conflict and van Gaal was acting like expected. And when conflict was made the performances dropped and the final nail in the coffin was his loss against Schalke in the cup. (Bayern fans can correct me if i don't remember it right)
About his sacking at Barcelona i would like to say that he was pretty successful in his first spell but when he came back in 2002 Barcelona was not in the best shape. In 2000 when van Gaal went also went president Nunez and new president Gaspart came. He was the man who sold Figo to Real. In years when Gaspart was president Barcelona was in decline, already sacked 2 managers in 2 seasons and it didn't go well with van Gaal either. Despite bad result there are many people who think that president was more to blame as van Gaal. When van Gaal was sacked they get rid of Gaspart aswell. They then get duo Laporta as a president and Rijaakrd as a manager.
And that he was sacked at Netherlands and they wanted him back 10 years later tell you that hey didn't think there slip to get to WC was not completely his fault and they really rate him.
Sacking is a part of the job as a manager. Even The special one was sacked twice. Hell even Fergie was sacked once
I think van Gaal is best possible option even if Pep or Mourinho became available (they wont) as long as he keep cool head and things don't get messy. It's a risk but it's a risk which can bring us success.
Pep philosophy concetrate to much on possesion and he lack any alternatives when his sistem is not working. We don't have the players which will be able to replicate his Barcelona side and i think the main reason for him going to Bayern was that Bayern had quallity and Pep though that with this quallity he could replicate his Barcelona side. But he fall short because they don't have as much individual quallity as his Barcelona side had. I'm not writting off Pep but it will be a real test for him if he could adapt his philosophy to the player which he have at his disposal at Bayern. So far Heynckes was doing better job last year.
Mourinho on the other hand concetrate to much on defending and not getting a goal and on fast counter attacks. It's nothing wrong with this philosophy as long as you have good defense and quick powerfull attacking players and deadly striker. And he don't have deadly striker at Chelsea and i think this will cost him a league and it costed him the CL final in my opinion. He made a big mistake that he didn't brought in good striker in the summer even more if you think that Falcao and Cavani were on the trasfer list of their clubs. And about us. At the moment our defense is not the best and our attacking options are not good in counter attacking football. They are just to slow.
Both Pep and Mourinho are really going to far with their own tactics and if the team is not build like they want they don't deliver expected results. This is not as much a criticism of their philosophy as it is scepticism that they will bring us results as we wanted in the short term. Also even if their philosophy with right players bring trophies i think that their teams play boring football and i don't want this kind of football at United.
And Ancelotti as someone said before me is just a manager who is in the spotlight because he have a quallity player at his disposal and he made it work. We don't have as much quallity as Madrid team have and with the likes of Ronaldo, Bale and di Maria (and Benzema but i don't think that Benzema in vital part of this team) his italian counter attacking football is tearing europe appart. But we don't have as quick attacking players as Real and Ancelotti would struggle to get us playing on similar level as Real is playing. And domestically it looks like he will fail to win a league once more.
Van Gaal on the other hand usually get the most out of the players at his disposal and adapt his system to the players. He have his philosophy but he can make it work in many sistems and formations. And as i said as long as he don't fall out with the players and the board he is best option possible. The only one who is better at the moment for us is Klopp but he would not want to leave Dortmund.
And about van Gaal sacking at Bayern.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/9453228.stm
"It all started getting messy when he [Van Gaal] dropped Hans-Jorg Butt and replaced him with Thomas Kraft,"-Uli Hoeness. He was sacked because he didn't like Butt but Butt was not a good goalkepper to be fair. At that time Kraft was a promising young goalkepper and van Gaal tried to give him a chance. Bayern board didn't like it and they didn't rate Kraft so they decided to buy Neuer without agreement with van Gaal. But Neuer was hated by Bayern fans when he was at Schalke. I think van Gaal told the press that Bayern board want to buy Neuer and fans didn't like it so it all started to fall appart. But board started conflict and van Gaal was acting like expected. And when conflict was made the performances dropped and the final nail in the coffin was his loss against Schalke in the cup. (Bayern fans can correct me if i don't remember it right)
About his sacking at Barcelona i would like to say that he was pretty successful in his first spell but when he came back in 2002 Barcelona was not in the best shape. In 2000 when van Gaal went also went president Nunez and new president Gaspart came. He was the man who sold Figo to Real. In years when Gaspart was president Barcelona was in decline, already sacked 2 managers in 2 seasons and it didn't go well with van Gaal either. Despite bad result there are many people who think that president was more to blame as van Gaal. When van Gaal was sacked they get rid of Gaspart aswell. They then get duo Laporta as a president and Rijaakrd as a manager.
And that he was sacked at Netherlands and they wanted him back 10 years later tell you that hey didn't think there slip to get to WC was not completely his fault and they really rate him.
Sacking is a part of the job as a manager. Even The special one was sacked twice. Hell even Fergie was sacked once
I think van Gaal is best possible option even if Pep or Mourinho became available (they wont) as long as he keep cool head and things don't get messy. It's a risk but it's a risk which can bring us success.
The big names off the field at Bayern often seem as blunt, rude and outspoken as LvG is said to be, if not more.
LVG will be like SAF in respect of not giving a feck of who you are, how much you earn and how much of a celebrity you are. If you don't fit into the philosophy, have poor form or you don't agree with the managers thinking, you will be dropped. SAF dropped Rooney for the CL quarter final last season due to bad form and, if it wasn't for Nani's red card, we probably would have gone through.Some people are in for a surprise, IMO.
Agreed. We can't be sure at all what team he'll pick. Best to wait and see if he gets the job, and then wait and see who he picks.
I totally agree and we could see that after defeat against Real.
Fair point. Beckenbauer doesn't shut up.
Makes a good Adidas top though does Beckenbauer, I've got 2.
Yeah, I also think LvG won't have the same kind of conflicts here, at least not as strong as the Bayern ppl always need to talk, everyone Needs to give their 2 cents. Whereas here I can't imagine Woodward talking / critizising our manager's tactics publically! He'd rather talk about shirt sales and revenues Good for the manager!
Good for the manager!The Holland games at the world cup are going to have ridiculous threads aren't they?
I think he's the second best candidate for the job, second only to Klopp. Including the likes or Mourinho, Guardiola.
I think he's the second best candidate for the job, second only to Klopp. Including the likes or Mourinho, Guardiola.
Mourinho and Pep are a modern breed of manager that moves from club to club, seemingly cherry picking the very best assignments. That approach seems to have distorted people's views about what constitutes a good manager and a successful record.
Consider Mourinho's record. He took over at Porto the most successful Portugese club in history. Then Chelsea, who'd finished second the previous year and were in a period of unprecedented spending. Then Inter, who'd just won 3 titles in a row. Then Real Madrid, who hadn't finished outside the top 2 in 6 years, were coming off the back of a record goalscoring campaign and featured one C. Ronaldo.
I'm not criticising the guy's record btw - his CL wins with Porto and Inter are both way over par and there was a mental hurdle to overcome with Chelsea. But if you consistently take over clubs placed second or first, you'll consistently finish second or first. Indeed his current Chelsea assignment is the closest he's ever come to taking a risk.
I can't think of any managers who were around before the year 2000 who've taken that kind of approach. Mourinho feels like the first to do it, now Pep is doing it too. but if those guys are in management for as long as Van Gaal, Ancelloti and the rest, they'll have plenty of black marks on their records too. And they shouldn't be considered any less for it either.
The Holland games at the world cup are going to have ridiculous threads aren't they?
I think he's the second best candidate for the job, second only to Klopp. Including the likes or Mourinho, Guardiola.
Same here. Really don't want Mourinho, and I don't think Pep would suit our club (much like it seems to be the case at Bayern).
I don't think Pep would suit any club other than Barcelona to be fair.
Agreed.
Think you've spent too long playing FIFA.
To be fair, without Messi, how well would he do at Barca? This tika football seems to struggle against top teams without something special from the likes of Messi.
Has he signed yet?
see how he does next year with a world class striker in lewendowski... i have an awful feeling that he wont even play him in some big games and you will see gotze or muller up top
It seems the same at Barca to me. I remember watching a documentary on them during the Laporta reign and they seemed like a bunch of mafioso behind the scenes. Big and precious egos.
My only worry is that we have already seen revolt from within during the Moyes reign. I am hoping, extrapolating, that was because of the players not responding to Moyes's small time attitude. Van Gaal won't be bringing a small time attitude to the job.
There was also a lot of talk of disquiet in the dressing room after Moyes crowned Rooney king of Old Trafford. Again, such strategic favouritism will not be a feature of Van Gaal's reign.
I think, I am hoping, that the players will largely respond to Van Gaal's immersive and exciting philosophy.
There was a Paul Scholes video on another thread last night, featuring Sherigham, Beckham etc. and I was shocked how much quicker, more incisive and cohesive our football was. We looked like a real team, whereas in the last years it's more about a few moments of magic redeeming generally pedestrian play.
We could probably use a bit of a shake up.
Absolutely and Van Gaal is among the best ones one can turn to in that regard.
The nice thing about appointing Simeone is his packed in 4-4-2 system would fit a lot of our talent.
The strikers have to work hard defensively and break quickly, and Rooney and especially Welbeck and Hernandez fit that bill. RVP seems like less of a fit, though.
Carrick is not all that different a footballer than Tiago, who has excelled this season under Simeone. The other CM is Gabi or when he`s out, Mario Suarez. We`d need to sign someone for that spot, almost surely. Fellaini is another questionable fit for Simeone with his need for discipline and movement off the ball, but he does have the stamina for it, and he`s better than Suarez on the ball.
Mata and Kagawa are pretty good fits for playing wide in Simeone`s system, as both are comfortable coming central and Mata especially excels at quick, direct passing on the break. People say Kagawa can`t really play out wide, but if we played quicker, he might prosper there.
So, something like:
------Welbeck---Hernandez-----
Kagawa--CM----Carrick----Mata
is actually a reasonable facsimile of what he has at Atletico, and maybe he can bring Koke (who I think looks likely to replace Xavi as the next great CM) with him.
The strikers have to work hard defensively and break quickly, and Rooney and especially Welbeck and Hernandez fit that bill. RVP seems like less of a fit, though.
Carrick is not all that different a footballer than Tiago, who has excelled this season under Simeone. The other CM is Gabi or when he`s out, Mario Suarez. We`d need to sign someone for that spot, almost surely. Fellaini is another questionable fit for Simeone with his need for discipline and movement off the ball, but he does have the stamina for it, and he`s better than Suarez on the ball.
Mata and Kagawa are pretty good fits for playing wide in Simeone`s system, as both are comfortable coming central and Mata especially excels at quick, direct passing on the break. People say Kagawa can`t really play out wide, but if we played quicker, he might prosper there.
So, something like:
------Welbeck---Hernandez-----
Kagawa--CM----Carrick----Mata
is actually a reasonable facsimile of what he has at Atletico, and maybe he can bring Koke (who I think looks likely to replace Xavi as the next great CM) with him.
Wish we would get it done already. It's getting boring now.
It was up to £6m. We probably haven't paid nearly that much yet, given his limited appearances for us. And he'd done a lot more than score one wonder goal. He'd been consistently excellent for Crewe that season, and he'd scored about five wonder goals. I'm not his biggest fan, but there was a pretty solid basis for buying him. Besides, once you've got the financial muscle we do, a £6m outlay here and there barely registers. (Sounds so bizarre to say that. Modern football, eh?)
Anyway this is all a bit OT, not sure how we got onto Powell.
first of all, van gaal introduced possession football in Munich. He was the first coach who implemented this strategy. Bayern was usually coached very pragmatic. If you dont like possession football van gaal is the wrong guy. No reason to sugar coat it.
second, the story is not entirely true. The management decided fairly early at the start of the second season, that they are going to buy Manuel Neuer. After the debacle with Rensing two years earlier they didnt trust Thomas Kraft be the #1 and Jörg Butt was always meant to be a second choice. Van Gaal didnt agree with it, but he knew this and dropped Butt in the middle of the season without any reason. I think both sides - van gaal and hoeneß - acted like huffy bitches and both are to blame for the whole situation around Kraft.
That wasnt the reason why van gaal was dropped. We played incredible bad for the whole season and he lost parts of the dressing room.
- he fall out with van Bommel, his captain.
- Demichelis was unhappy and left during the winter-transfer period.
- Ribery is always unhappy when things doesnt go his way
- Badstuber had a semi-public meltdown
- robben, a strong supporter of van gaal distanced himself (because of van bommel?)
- gomez desperately wanted to leave
etc.pp
A couple of games after the winter-break it was announced that van gaal had to leave at the end of the season to appease the/some players. About 6 games before the end of the season, the CL-qualification was in danger (4th spot; at this time only 3 german clubs could qualify for the CL), so he was sacked. At this point any bayern manager gets in real trouble.
Personally I think Hoeneß was out of line to criticize van Gaal publicly and he hated him. That surely didnt help, but wasnt the reason why he had to leave.
Do we know his favourite colour yet?
Got to be Oranje surely?
Oranje? Boom!
Come on. Happen already.
It's a mixture of red and yellow you know? Same colours as our badge, coincidence? I think not!
That's why we have a good history of Dutch players at our club.
Or were you refering to the beer? I'd love one!
Going to stop talking nonsense now.
I won't argue you about why he was sacked i only wanted to mention that interuptions from the board and openly telling the media they don't agree with things didn't really help him. When board is not behind the manager you can't expect players to get behind him. As i said a was not perfectly familiar with his Bayern sacking just posted as much as i read and heared from my friends who are Bayern fans.
I wanted to responde to the bold part. I know van Gaal bring the possession football but tactics are very different from Guardiola tactics. Similarities are van Gaal and Guardiola like triangels made on the pitch and keeping the ball as much as you could but there is big difference how van Gaal teams use possession and how Guardiola teams use it. Van Gaal's teams have more direct aproach. His team are using the possession to try and open the defenses and attack the space. When attack is not going as planed and is interupted the ball is often passsed backwards that the opposite team open their defense a little and then attack them again. Guardiola's teams rarely pass the ball backwards to the defense or even goalkepper. When Guardiola's team have position on the opposite side they try to pass it through the defense even if the defense is packed into the box. They don't pass it back to get opposite players out of the box but they just pass it around the box and hope defending team will made a mistake and goalscoring opportunity is made so they can pass it through defense.
edit: and about van Gaal using different systems and formations i wanted to say that he used different formations at different clubs and make it work. He stick to his philosophy of retaining the ball but he did it with differents players and formations.
All true, I can confirm.
The looks on the players faces (for instance at 30 seconds)
Anyone who has ever played decent level football at even youth level can relate. "feck feck feck, keep your head down, don't draw attention, feck feck he's losing it just don't look at me"
It's a sort of desperation, especially among our ex-players (to have someone British) and media-shouting players (a pal who they think won't be as hard on them as say van Gaal). Suddenly Rio wants another year, and Giggs is the ebst possible manager we could get ever.
Not buying it.
Dutch Gordon Ramsay.
And a manager who will not be blamed ala Moyes if the players fail him.......always a plus.
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