United linked with van Gaal in the meeja

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The club is caught between a rock and a hard place in a way.

Giggs is probably not someone the powers that be would entrust the role of Manager to on account of his lack of managerial experience.

So they need a new man.

The new man should not come in like Moyes did and break all connections to the "old guard" (I include Ferguson there) lest a similar result be produced as that which the Moyes disaster did.

So a link is needed - to avoid making the same mistake twice. Giggs is the link.

But I fail to believe that this would be an issue for Van Gaal except for if he has developed a very good working relationship with Kluivert in which case you'd be a little miffed at having to forge a new relationship with a coach when you have a perfectly good one (in your opinion). That said, United is the job he craves (let's be blunt - any top premier league side would have satisfied that need) and I am sure he'll be willing to compromise. Why couldn't both Kluivert and Giggs get roles though would be my question.

I think Van Gaal is our man and will be appointed in large part because I think he has contacts across Europe to a lot of potential transfer targets such as those mentioned in the press and with his reputation, believe it or not, will be more of a draw than I think Giggs would alone. He is successful, but testy. The track record he has and lack of any real alternative re experienced managers means he's almost the only option.

I shouldn't imagine he's holding back in terms of putting forward his terms during the negotiations we all think are taking place, but I think this is a good sign, if indeed true, as this has to be right for all parties.
 
KM said:
Rene worked with youth team and then went on to work with Brondy. It's only in the starting of 08/09 season that he was promoted as first team coach.
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I think he still worked with the first team before he took over Queiroz's role -- but let's take it a few steps back. You are suggesting that since Rene's promotion to first team coach coincided with "our dullest football ever", that the dullness was his doing. It's a very simple fallacy - correlation is not causation. We did lose Ronaldo and Tevez in one season, only to replace them with Valencia and Owen, after all. Your suggestion that he promotes dull football is very far from clear.

There are several other things to consider: the fact that his coaching philosophy was highly skills-oriented, the fact that he is very highly regarded by experienced players (strikers at that), and that under Van Gaal he would be under much more direction anyway - it's entirely possible, maybe even probable, that he would adapt well and do well.

I maintain that he would be the outstanding 'continuity' option. Giggs needs to start from the bottom.

Plugsy said:
One thing that concerns me is the idea of Giggs being manager-elect. In three years time, or possibly more depending how long van Gaal wants to stay and how successful he is, we could be in a position where any number of the world's top coaches become available and/or interested in the vacancy. Klopp could have overturned Bayern dominance in Germany and taken that extra step to win the CL, Mourinho could have added a third European title to his mix, Guardiola could have moved on from Bayern and began to manage in Italy where upon he built another world class side. Are we going to ignore all of that and perhaps others besides and appoint Ryan Giggs because it seemed like a good idea for a couple of weeks in the spring of 2014?
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Manager-elect for God's sake, have you ever heard of such an idea? Everyone's gone mad.
 
Mister_Stubbs said:
What's all this I'm reading on twitter about Louis Van Gaal not being allowed to sign Patrick Kluviet as assistant manager as the club want Ryan Giggs assistant.. that's a great way to start with the new manager.
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Yeah I just noticed that too. If it is true then we really are handling things very badly. A manager should always have control over who's on his staff imo.
 
If true that LVG doesn't want Giggs as his assistant, it's not that hard to see why. He knows Kluivert, knows he can work well with him and, most importantly, knows he isn't likely to be gunning for his job with massive fan support if they have a bad patch. If we really believe Giggsy can be a top manager then the thing to do seems to be to let him go elsewhere and prove himself.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Not if there is a substantial clearout of players, the players might like how LVG works and side with him. Giggs might not get the support he expects.
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Even if there isn't a substantial clearout, as long as Van Gaal gets the machine purring, I can't see anyone siding with Giggs if he spits his dummy out. You'd hope he wouldn't be stupid and immature enough to do that though.
 
Dans said:
The club is caught between a rock and a hard place in a way.

Giggs is probably not someone the powers that be would entrust the role of Manager to on account of his lack of managerial experience.

So they need a new man.

The new man should not come in like Moyes did and break all connections to the "old guard" (I include Ferguson there) lest a similar result be produced as that which the Moyes disaster did.

So a link is needed - to avoid making the same mistake twice. Giggs is the link.

But I fail to believe that this would be an issue for Van Gaal except for if he has developed a very good working relationship with Kluivert in which case you'd be a little miffed at having to forge a new relationship with a coach when you have a perfectly good one (in your opinion). That said, United is the job he craves (let's be blunt - any top premier league side would have satisfied that need) and I am sure he'll be willing to compromise. Why couldn't both Kluivert and Giggs get roles though would be my question.

I think Van Gaal is our man and will be appointed in large part because I think he has contacts across Europe to a lot of potential transfer targets such as those mentioned in the press and with his reputation, believe it or not, will be more of a draw than I think Giggs would alone. He is successful, but testy. The track record he has and lack of any real alternative re experienced managers means he's almost the only option.

I shouldn't imagine he's holding back in terms of putting forward his terms during the negotiations we all think are taking place, but I think this is a good sign, if indeed true, as this has to be right for all parties.
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Moyes bringing is own men wasn't the problem. The fact that both he and his men weren't good enough was. If he had been a genuinely top class manager bringing in genuinely top class staff then nobody would've given a feck about him clearing out the rest.

Pressuring VG into accepting Giggs would be a far, far, far bigger mistake than letting VG bring in his own staff. If that's the way the new manager wants to go then it should be his choice, same as it was with Moyes.
 
Rooney et al will just go crying to Giggsy if big mean van Gaal doesn't let them do what they want. Let van Gaal bring in his own people and reshape the club instead of desperately trying to cling on to the Fergie era.
 
The idiotic thing about this coaching staff 'link' idea is that Moyes promoted Giggs to the coaching staff and brought Phil Neville in.

It was a mistake to let Moyes bring in his own staff so therefore the solution is to make sure two prominent members of that staff must remain?
 
shaggy said:
Rooney et al will just go crying to Giggsy if big mean van Gaal doesn't let them do what they want. Let van Gaal bring in his own people and reshape the club instead of desperately trying to cling on to the Fergie era.
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If that's the case, he should be moved on.
 
Brophs said:
If true that LVG doesn't want Giggs as his assistant, it's not that hard to see why. He knows Kluivert, knows he can work well with him and, most importantly, knows he isn't likely to be gunning for his job with massive fan support if they have a bad patch. If we really believe Giggsy can be a top manager then the thing to do seems to be to let him go elsewhere and prove himself.
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I think the 'Giggs for Gaffer' party line there is - well he might fail if he goes somewhere else, and then he won't get the chance he deserves with United, and who cares if he failed because failure at a small club doesn't mean failure at a big club. Or something approaching that.

shaggy said:
Rooney et al will just go crying to Giggsy if big mean van Gaal doesn't let them do what they want. Let van Gaal bring in his own people and reshape the club instead of desperately trying to cling on to the Fergie era.
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I'm also concerned about Giggsy getting on the bell to Fergie if he doesn't like something.
 
Plugsy said:
The idiotic thing about this coaching staff 'link' idea is that Moyes promoted Giggs to the coaching staff and brought Phil Neville in.
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Exactly. Moyes' coaching staff had plenty of links to United, it just wasn't very good. I'm not sure how appointing Giggs again solves that problem.

I'd sooner see the new guy focus on bringing in staff who'll genuinely improve the players rather than people who happen to have played under SAF.
 
Mister_Stubbs said:
What's all this I'm reading on twitter about Louis Van Gaal not being allowed to sign Patrick Kluviet as assistant manager as the club want Ryan Giggs assistant.. that's a great way to start with the new manager.
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But Kluviet was brought for the trusted relationship. Giggs maybe better than Kluviet in the long run. You never know!

Also, it will allow Van Gaal settle in quickly.
 
LonelyFire said:
@BennyBlanco @KM

There were many issues with Giggs and Moyes - but not his use of AMs in the wide positions. Giggs issue was the lack of tempo. Moyes favoured a more slower build up. Nothing to do with not playing wingers.
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I wonder how he could improve things with the present side though. Apart from Welbeck all our players are friggin slow. Giggs himself isnt as fast as he used to be and his best mates Fletcher and Carrick are hardly fast.
 
Our coaching staff is comprised of who was about at the time and a couple of his mates. Why do we pretend that this is now some kind of well thought-out planned future nucleus of the coaching set up. Think what you like about Giggs or Scholes or whomever being in the job, the pretence this has been some kind of 'United way' plan as opposed to something we inadvertently stumbled into is silly. We need more than a random set of circumstance as a basis for any future coaching structure, don't we?

People mention Bayern or Barcelona or whatever but presumably more thought went into it than simply 'whose about at the time? Oh they'll do'
 
I'm surprised that the appointment hasn't been announced by the club yet. It seems to be a foregone conclusion but until it is announced officially anything can happen.
 
Crono said:
I think the 'Giggs for Gaffer' party line there is - well he might fail if he goes somewhere else, and then he won't get the chance he deserves with United, and who cares if he failed because failure at a small club doesn't mean failure at a big club. Or something approaching that.



I'm also concerned about Giggsy getting on the bell to Fergie if he doesn't like something.
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Then Fergie needs to tell him where to go and stop being a sneak.
 
I don't know about reshaping the club. Yes, the first team needs to be improved in regards to quality and management but I wouldn't say we need van Gaal to come in and completely reshape the club.

We are quite well run.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Then Fergie needs to tell him where to go and stop being a sneak.
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Implicit in that is my suspicion of Fergie to be honest. He's been pushing for Giggs to be the f*cking manager. He knew we were pursuing Van Gaal (and however many other targets). He knew what his public endorsement of Giggs would have meant to a new incoming manager.
 
Eric'sCollar said:
I don't know about reshaping the club. Yes, the first team needs to be improved in regards to quality and management but I wouldn't say we need van Gaal to come in and completely reshape the club.

We are quite well run.
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I'd not disagree but the problem is dismissing the coaching staff isn't re-shaping the club. Especially when the coaching staff he may look to reshape didn't exist a fortnight ago.
 
Bader said:
But Kluviet was brought for the trusted relationship. Giggs maybe better than Kluviet in the long run. You never know!

Also, it will allow Van Gaal settle in quickly.
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Trusted relationship and Giggs don't go together. I would rather he had Scholes coaching. Giggs is a walking talking threat.
 
Crono said:
Implicit in that is my suspicion of Fergie to be honest. He's been pushing for Giggs to be the f*cking manager. He knew we were pursuing Van Gaal (and however many other targets). He knew what his public endorsement of Giggs would have meant to a new incoming manager.
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He hasn't made a public endorsement of Giggs. The relish at which people attack Ferguson based on nothing whatsoever is alarming.
 
Plugsy said:
I'd not disagree but the problem is dismissing the coaching staff isn't re-shaping the club. Especially when the coaching staff he may look to reshape didn't exist a fortnight ago.
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Yeh, I have no issue with what he does with the coaching staff, it's his team, he is the boss, no problem there. Maybe I just read the post wrong and what the poster meant by reshape.
 
Crono said:
Implicit in that is my suspicion of Fergie to be honest. He's been pushing for Giggs to be the f*cking manager. He knew we were pursuing Van Gaal (and however many other targets). He knew what his public endorsement of Giggs would have meant to a new incoming manager.
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That is a big problem. Giggs would be going to SAF all the time for advice, so who would be manager, Giggs or SAF. Giggs would end up basically doing the press conferences.
 
Brophs said:
If true that LVG doesn't want Giggs as his assistant, it's not that hard to see why. He knows Kluivert, knows he can work well with him and, most importantly, knows he isn't likely to be gunning for his job with massive fan support if they have a bad patch. If we really believe Giggsy can be a top manager then the thing to do seems to be to let him go elsewhere and prove himself.
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Agree with this.

The idea of forcing LVG to take Giggs as #2 is daft. If we want him to be the manager then he should pick his own staff.

The mistake Moyes made wasn't so much replacing the existing backroom staff, it was replacing them with subpar equivalents.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Trusted relationship and Giggs don't go together. I would rather he had Scholes coaching. Giggs is a walking talking threat.
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I don't know about that but I'd suggest maybe Scholes has a better footballing brain than Giggs. I don't get why Giggs is (could be) the chosen heir apparent because of years of service.
 
The way things have been conducted are scandalous. If the club wants Giggs in power then they should appoint him as manager and let him bear the responsibility of his actions.
 
We have trouble letting go as a club - first with the shadow of SAF's aura looming over Moyes, and now Giggs. This next season should be a transition in every sense of the word - we get rid of the old guard and kickstart the process of building a side catered to the modern age of football. Getting caught up in sentimentality will only hinder us.
 
Plugsy said:
I don't know about that but I'd suggest maybe Scholes has a better footballing brain than Giggs. I don't get why Giggs is (could be) the chosen heir apparent because of years of service.
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The tea lady probably has as many year service as Giggs. Football must be one of the few professions where you can retire, then get a job with the club you have just retired from. I wonder if LVG will be impressed that Quinton Fortune seems to training with the team, we appear to be a free gym as well.
 
Kaos said:
We have trouble letting go as a club - first with the shadow of SAF's aura looming over Moyes, and now Giggs. This next season should be a transition in every sense of the word - we get rid of the old guard and kickstart the process of building a side catered to the modern age of football. Getting caught up in sentimentality will only hinder us.
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I don't think Fergie's aura loomed over anything Moyes was just incompetent. I don't think there needs to be a break with the past or a continuation of it. What should happen is what the manager wants to happen. We shouldn't arbitrarily announce he's bound to the ad-hoc end of April coaching set-up and at the same time we shouldn't insist that he rips it up.
 
Rado_N said:
Agree with this.

The idea of forcing LVG to take Giggs as #2 is daft. If we want him to be the manager then he should pick his own staff.

The mistake Moyes made wasn't so much replacing the existing backroom staff, it was replacing them with subpar equivalents.
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Kluivert also knows exactly how he wants his team to play and might be a calming influence on him. It seems LVG has to mentor Giggs to take over his job, but also coach him how to coach the team.
 
Giggs may be the next SAF in the making. If the manager doesn't want him then he should be on the way out. If the club disagree with the manager on that then they shouldn't appoint the manager in the first place.

Such decision will only create friction between the manager and Giggs. The former will probably mistrust Giggs since he's not one of his people and he has no power to sack him. The latter will go to work knowing that the manager doesn't want him and he's there only because SAF love child.
 
Plugsy said:
I don't think Fergie's aura loomed over anything Moyes was just incompetent. I don't think there needs to be a break with the past or a continuation of it. What should happen is what the manager wants to happen. We shouldn't arbitrarily announce he's bound to the ad-hoc end of April coaching set-up and at the same time we shouldn't insist that he rips it up.
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Oh don't get me wrong, Moyes was pretty crap regardless. Nevertheless, the mere notion of trying to (poorly) replicate Fergie by getting the man himself to choose his successor, and moulding him into the job just shows the club's found it hard to let go and move on.

We shouldn't insist on anything - thats the point. It doesn't matter if LvG wants to maintain some of the old guard or rip it up and do things entirely his way - the point is that he's given the autonomy to do what HE thinks is best. That's why we're paying him the big bucks.
 
If LvG takes over and doesn't want to keep Giggs, Scholes etc then I'm fine with that.

We have to trust him. The Class of 92 was great, but we can't live off of them forever.
 
Bwuk said:
If LvG takes over and doesn't want to keep Giggs, Scholes etc then I'm fine with that.

We have to trust him. The Class of 92 was great, but we can't live off of them forever.
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Agree, don't like the idea we are 'moulding' Giggs for the job in three years time either. He has no right to become the United manager just because he was a great player. Should earn his stripes and prove himself elsewhere. So far none of Fergie's ex players are anywhere near good enough to become United manager.
 
Brophs said:
If true that LVG doesn't want Giggs as his assistant, it's not that hard to see why. He knows Kluivert, knows he can work well with him and, most importantly, knows he isn't likely to be gunning for his job with massive fan support if they have a bad patch. If we really believe Giggsy can be a top manager then the thing to do seems to be to let him go elsewhere and prove himself.
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Agreed.

There are positives to having Giggsy as AM but there are definite negatives as well. There's no doubt he'd like to be the manager and on top of that, he's on great terms with the squad. Knowing Van Gaal, there are sure to be some ruffled feathers due to his attitude and thus there's a good chance of players running to Giggsy for support/help. Not an ideal scenario to be in imo, the AM should be the Manager's man, not the players.
 
The Red Thinker said:
That's like more than a week old. Before any concrete signs that Van Gaal will take the job. SO I'd say ignore it. Sir Alex no longer has a big say in the club's day to day decisions. He'll be living in Boston for a while to come.
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I know that mate. I know Van Gaal's got the job.

@Plugsy was saying that Fergie never endorsed Giggs for the manager's job at any point, even claiming that there was no basis whatsoever for thinking that. That speech he gave was on the week Moyes got the sack, after Giggs became the caretaker manager.

It's not very diplomatic of him, letting the new manager know he wanted someone else.
 
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