Don’t sack him, just put him in charge of the U21s and hire a new first team coach.
Unpopular Opinion | Not sacking Ten Hag
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Let’s put the league position aside for once, because no big club with ambition would keep a coach finishing 8th in his second season after spunking 400 million in transfers.
From an on-field performance perspective, what is that one thing you see has been implemented successfully by him in his 2 year stint that has actually improved us.
I am genuinely curious to know this because I don’t see anything style wise or tactically that he has brought in that has made us better.
Our pressing is so shambolic and without rhyme or rhythm that most teams just run rings around us. Our passing out the back is as bad as it always was, and that’s why Onana has to go long so often.
I am struggling to think of one thing which I feel he has implemented to improve our performances.
Okay players that were here during mourinho onwards out.
But there are. We practically sacked the CEO, the director of football and the CFO (amongst many others) and the first two are higher in the hierarchy than EtH.
We are also gonna sign players and sell players, which have higher financial costs than replacing the managers.
When people complain that the other posters call them ‘cultists’ this is exactly what we mean. You keep making different rules for the manager to everyone else in the club. You probably don’t mind replacing half of the squad, but God forbid replacing the manager, he is beyond that and well, there is no one who can make such a decision before we get another few directors.
That’s the cult for you. The double standards where facts and performance works for everyone else, and the religion takes over when it comes to a single man.
Not even ETH pick his own players. Let ineos sign players that fit their new mould and ETH has to manage them. I expect them to have a better strategy in place than a manager picking who he wants.
He has to go
Ten Hag defenders have shifted to "but, but last season..." desperate times.
For me, the relevant question is who is actually available who would be more likely to succeed -- success now being merely making top four -- than ten Hag. And as it stands right now the list of candidates who fit that description is not impressive.
I would be open to bringing Carrick, but it would probably be a leap too far too soon for him. Other than Carrick, who's on no one's radar so it's presumably not in the cards, it's Southgate, Potter and Tuchel and for me only Tuchel merits consideration. But if Ancelotti were up for the challenge, of course. In other words, we may have no good choice but to keep ten Hag and let him prove that 23/24 was an aberration due to injuries, the chaos surrounding ownership fiasco and player bad behavior off the pitch.
I would be open to bringing Carrick, but it would probably be a leap too far too soon for him. Other than Carrick, who's on no one's radar so it's presumably not in the cards, it's Southgate, Potter and Tuchel and for me only Tuchel merits consideration. But if Ancelotti were up for the challenge, of course. In other words, we may have no good choice but to keep ten Hag and let him prove that 23/24 was an aberration due to injuries, the chaos surrounding ownership fiasco and player bad behavior off the pitch.
Mourinho onwards not only mourinho.
martial
Rashford
Sancho
Lingard
Maguire
Mctom
Awb
Shaw
Varane
loan and freebies can also go: ambrabat/eriksen.
that’s 11 players.
He won’t spit his dummy out at all selling those players, maybe he’d chose to keep dalot
There are tons of managers who would probably be doing a better job than EtH. The baseline is so low that any decent manager needs to basically try hard to do worse than what EtH has been doing.
It is a bit like saying let’s not replace Antony, who is right there that can do a better job than him. If someone like peak Best was available sure, but no peak Best so let’s keep Antony.
On the 400m point in isolation, I'm not blaming Ten Hag on money spent, because we've wasted money for a decade prior to him. I don't think *he* is the problem on transfers, because he should never have had the sole say in who we buy. We had clowns negotiating deals and it was a failure.
That being said, we can and should evaluate his efforts on the field and I'm in total agreement that we haven't just stood still this season, we've regressed massively. He's not tweaked or adapted to the injury crisis, he's not changed tactics which clearly don't work, and he hasn't salvaged enough games through his in-game substitutions. He needs to take ownership on that and despite an outperformance in year 1, his work this year is objectively sackable. Would I sack him? I'm on the fence, tilting toward not doing so. But I certainly don't argue against anyone who thinks he should go. I totally get it.
We joke but it seems like some people really think that way.
I'm not in the Ten Hag in camp personally, I think this season has been an epic fail and worthy of the sack. But I don't think anyone is saying he should be given the keys to old Trafford and a lifetime contact.
What's the term in poker called when you don't raise or fold, you just want to see the cards, a check? If Ineos just want to stand pat and see how some of these young managers get on while focusing on improving the playing staff then I don't think that is absolute lunacy. It might even be a mature decision that pays dividends.
What's the term in poker called when you don't raise or fold, you just want to see the cards, a check? If Ineos just want to stand pat and see how some of these young managers get on while focusing on improving the playing staff then I don't think that is absolute lunacy. It might even be a mature decision that pays dividends.
So keeping the current manager for a 3rd year would not be boring?
That reason is based in reality, he has developed them and brought them through. He has handled Mainoo well, Garnacho has been our best attacker at 19 and Hojlund did have a period in the season where he looked like the striker we were hoping for.
Exactly, he likely will have better options in the squad so he doesn't have to get booed when he subs Mainoo and Hojlund. Garnacho will likely be better next season and more robust.
It is made up that he hasn't developed them and they might get injured - he has actively protected them from fatigue and gets booed for. They might get injured with anyone, not sure how it's an argument against him when we'll be playing less games and hopefully a deeper squad.
Odd way of just saying that he picked them. Like saying Mourinho developed McTominay, or Moyes developed Januzaj, or LVG developed Rashford.
The players developed of their own accord.
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If he was told by medical staff they would both be back (which is what he has said is the case) then can you understand why that decision would be taken by the club. It’s not just a Ten Hag choice and already money was tight with P&S rules.
Mason Mount was not injury prone prior to purchase that is revisionist.
Rice should have been bought instead of Casemiro.
I don’t think we’re throwing out of the window for arrogance it’s likely we know that playing like that will never lead to titles. You have to also consider the context of what we have regularly available. I don’t think it’s too crass for me to say our defence hasn’t existed as a unit all season. That is going to severely disrupt how we build up, how we try to press higher and therefore we’re never going to fix it with the level of injury we have. You need a degree of consistency see Arsenal for reference.
We also weren’t even particularly open and unstructured against Palace. We had Casemiro and Evans playing at CB against players with pace and power. The goals we conceded early came from that mismatch.
And they seemingly forget we took some absolute batterings last season, including 7-0 v Liverpool.
There was a 2month purple patch where it seemed like we'd "got it" but the season was basically propped up by Rashford, Casemiro and Martinez having superb spells.
All 3 have basically been a total bust this season for different reasons and we've instead relied on Bruno recently, and the McTom / Maguire combo that almost everyone, including Ten Hag wanted shipped off last summer.
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Also @Atheist if you consider Ten Hag was told he’d have both players back. From a tactical point of view is there anything the bold you disagree with?
He didn't terminate it, the loan expired and they chose not to extend it, that was at least partly because the medical team who said that Malacia would be back and with Shaw also being 'available' a 3rd LB wasn't needed, Fernandez was loaned out at the start of the season and that was clearly the right decision at the time
ok, if that's the route you're going down, I'm out. Have a good evening.
Well it's a tried and tested trick used to deflect the failings of every previous manager too, and it doesn't wash.
You can give them credit for playing youngsters, absolutely, but the youngsters get the credit for developing and improving. Mainoo is not the player he is because ETH coached him
That’s the thing. Results wise I would agree he did well last season but our play style was not different to how we did under Ole. We just trusted on Rashford to drag us out many times while we defended well with Cas being a monster in front of our defense. However, I am sure everyone expected a change in style and performances to improve in the second season.
He definitely implemented a new style but it is suicidal, which as you rightly said has had is regress both in terms of performance and results. The thing is no one is able to point out what exactly has he brought to the table except his reputation that he is a good coach. There is nothing tangible during his tenure here to show he can help build us to be a dominant team again.
I can't believe that the reasons to let him have another year are:
1) He was decent 1st year. Forget about 2nd year as it was due to injuries, despite we played awful even when we have full team. Also, our 1st year is just average.
2) There is no standout manager to replace him despite we were being basically outplayed by many managers with budget much smaller than us.
3) There were no football structure to assist him despite he himself insisted on taking charge of signings and spunked 400M.
4) We need to keep him to make a statement to the players and change majority of the players this time round to do something differently. Despite he has already signed majority of the players he wanted.
5) We keep sacking managers for the last decade. We need to do something differently now. Keep the failing manager instead so that given enough time he will succeed. Despite he failed every metrics in his KPI and no signs whatsoever to build on.
1) He was decent 1st year. Forget about 2nd year as it was due to injuries, despite we played awful even when we have full team. Also, our 1st year is just average.
2) There is no standout manager to replace him despite we were being basically outplayed by many managers with budget much smaller than us.
3) There were no football structure to assist him despite he himself insisted on taking charge of signings and spunked 400M.
4) We need to keep him to make a statement to the players and change majority of the players this time round to do something differently. Despite he has already signed majority of the players he wanted.
5) We keep sacking managers for the last decade. We need to do something differently now. Keep the failing manager instead so that given enough time he will succeed. Despite he failed every metrics in his KPI and no signs whatsoever to build on.
Apart from that's not what we were doing, you were just asking for a positive and what he could add. You should know, you asked the question.Well it's a tried and tested trick used to deflect the failings of every previous manager too, and it doesn't wash.
You can give them credit for playing youngsters, absolutely, but the youngsters get the credit for developing and improving. Mainoo is not the player he is because ETH coached him
So no manager develops anyone, they just play them and whatever happens, happens?
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- You weren’t on the forum during the 1st season so I can’t see what your views were but season 1 wasn’t average. It was objectively a good season.
- Which manager gets more out of Evans and Casemiro at CB with AWB at LB and Eriksen and Mainoo in CM?
- Just look back at your post history. You know you don’t believe this is Ten Hag’s fault you’ve been calling out the terrible structure since you arrived to the forum.
- We do need to work on our sporting culture we do need less player power we haven’t changed the majority of players without people running through reserve GKs, youth team players and including Jonny Evans as a key signing.
- What KPI are you referring to? What data do you have that the club doesn’t? We’ve improved our front press, we’ve improved our goalscoring rate from pre 2024 by a goal more per game.
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So @hobbers which players is the manager responsible for developing? Is it just the bad ones?You can give them credit for playing youngsters, absolutely, but the youngsters get the credit for developing and improving. Mainoo is not the player he is because ETH coached him
Because your line of argument here lends itself to being that purely player quality is the thing that drives performance ultimately and therefore United doesn’t have the player quality needed to perform at the required level. Which could be down to multiple factors then if the manager isn’t responsible for developing players?
Oh I misread the question.
Managers develop players to play as a team in their chosen system. Doesn't matter how good or bad the players are.
Young players and their youth coaches are responsible for developing themselves into talented footballers.
You could argue ETH has best developed Dalot for playing in his system. Whereas he's failed to develop most of the other players since they all look like square pegs in round holes.
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You really have drunk the Kool-Aid haven't you??
No - the fall out on here would be massively entertaining at least !
It's also about alternative options and not really seeing any that excite
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I don’t understand the question. Are you asking in terms of physical attributes, technical and tactical attributes?
What % is Ten Hag responsible for Mainoo being on the pitch?
It’s really not Hobbers. You’re implying Ten Hag has had no influence at all on Mainoo’s development and so if he’s been unable to influence him presumably due to his formative years not being under Ten Hag then how exactly do you track the influence he has had on anyone? By your flawed reasoning here surely Ten Hag needs more time then to coach any players into his mould because he’s only had access to Mainoo this season he won’t have had a significant impact.
That means the lack of access to Mount is exactly the same and every other player who he’s not had lots of time with.
You are saying he’s not responsible for the good in Mainoo so how is he then responsible for the bad in others?
You quoted the old post of course before I reread your question, but he's responsible for the bad on display because he's utterly failing to develop almost anyone in that squad to play as a team in his system.
Vast majority dont like playing in it, it doesnt suit most of their strengths, it isnt getting results, therefore they no longer believe in it or in him. No doubt his lack of communication skills hasnt helped much either.
You just have to look at how lost Mainoo looks in games to know he's being failed by his manager, and certainly not benefitting from being "developed" by ETH.
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But he’s not had access to the players same way he hasn’t had access to Mainoo for his formative years and so he’s not responsible for Mainoo developing so how is he now responsible for a squad full of injuries developing.
It’s really poor logic and argument from yourself here.
You’re claiming he has no influence on a player but every influence over the others who are performing badly.
You also are purely speculating now. I could easily argue the Liverpool game shows they haven’t given up on him and believe in what they can do with him etc.
If you won’t credit him with Mainoo’s development at all then I fail to see how you can attribute blame for development of others he’s had similar time/access to.
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If anything Hobbers your argument suggests he should stay on so that he actually has the time needed to develop the players into his style of play. Because if young Mainoo hasn’t been developed by him then how could anyone?
The idea of not having to watch this team repeat the tactical clusterfeck that has been this season is what excites me to be honest.
I've never had to endure so many boring games in one season as I have this one. Limp in attack and useless in defence. At least under LVG we were good defensively while being boring.
Yep.
The season has been an absolute bust from day 1 when Wolves ran us off the pitch and we somehow got away with a win.
The only real highlights of the season have been frustrating Liverpool, the cup run, and Mainoo & Garnacho developing.
McTom and Maguire have had a bit of a resurgence, but we all know they should be back up not starters really.
Football wise it's been dire, we seem to have decided a sensible strategy is that the front 5 press like maniacs, the defence stay deep, usually leaving 1 midfielder to try and cover half the pitch. Funnily enough it means we give up 20-30 shots every game.
Where have I said he has "every influence on ones performing badly"? You're the one saying that.
Stop the semantics and obsession with the word logic.
It's really, really simple. Young players are either talented when they hit the first team or not. Players are either good or not. Managers dont develop bad players into good ones, they might develop bad players into ones that fit well into their system. Equally they might fail to develop good players to fit into their system. How well they get a group of players to fit into their team, and their system, philosophy, ethos etc., defines whether they are a good manager or not.
That's the essence of "making a team greater than the sum of its parts". ETH has made the team far, far worse than the sum of its parts. Despite having 2 years and spending £450m on players he wanted.
- Most defeats in a PL season.
- 18 (EIGHTEEN) defeats in all competitions.
- Fewest points achieved in a PL season.
- Most goals conceded in a season (55 so far with 4 games left).
- Scored 52 goals this season. (three more than our worst goalscoring season in 2015/16 under Louis van Gaal.)
- Highest number of shots faced in a PL season (600+ so far).
- Finished bottom of Champions League group.
- Spunked £400m+ up the wall. (Backed more than his predecessors)
- He literally doesn't know how to control games.
And that's just off the top of my head.
Moyes was sacked for less than this. So too LvG, Jose and Ole. Why the hell is ETH getting a free pass?? What exactly has he done to garner so much blind loyalty??
He is absolutely diabolical and I feel like I'm going completely mad when I see people saying we should give him another year. It's so small time, it's ridiculous!!
Right now any of the floated names are better than ETH. And I don't really care whether they are an exciting name or not. The time for that has passed.
Competency is what's needed and, regardless of other factors, he really isn't.
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Kambwala has played 9 times this season. ten Hag deciding not to use Bayındır more is his choice. City, Arsenal and Liverpool have used their #2 GK. Eh, why wouldn’t Blackett and McNair be considered as LvG players? They are.
What has that got to do with them being ten Hag signings though?
What does their age have to do with it either? Have a look all across Europe and you will find teams who have multiple 17-21 year olds who start games and are even key players in some cases:
Leverkusen - Wirtz was 20 this season
Bayern - Musical was 20/21 this season
Real - Bellingham and Camavinga
Barcelona - Cubarsí (17). Yamal (16), Gavi (19) Fermín (20)
PSG - Zaïre-Emery 17/18 this season
Arsenal - Saliba, Martinelli and Saka were all key players for Arsenal during last season’s title challenge at the age of 21.
Rooney and Ronaldo were key players for us as teenagers and world class by 21.
Good thing Evans was signed, as he’s been one of our best players. We can’t even ten Hag any credit for that one though. Unfortunately, free transfers don’t count.
ten Hag claimed that the plan was to sign both FdJ and Casemiro in his recent interview with Gary Neville.
Amrabat and Eriksen barely being used this season is ten Hag’s decision. Both were still signed by him.
Stop lying to yourself. The squad has undergone an overhaul over the past 2 years and we are still shit. Worse than ever after almost 2 years under this coach.
1) I was in the forum. Not sure what's your point. Yes, 1st season is the minimum we expect from a Man Utd manager especially he was backed in his first season. The 1st season was acceptable because everyone expecting better 2nd season. The 1st season the expectations was not high because he was given time to rebuild. 2nd season is just not acceptable.
2) There are many better coaches and no point arguing here as it's very subjective. And ETH didn't play them all season at these positions. We are being outplayed many times and sometime with almost full team.
3) Yes, every man and his dog know about our terrible structure. 100% of the fans here were complaining the same thing. But ETH was reported to want full control or at least have heavy influence on signings. Hence, he was part of the problem and failed terribly.
4) IMO, the players are not the problem, maybe a few of them. We need to change the problematic players regardless who will be the manager. IMO, the style of play and man management are the biggest problem because ETH already have a lot of his signings and yet we are nowhere near to the standard required.
5) I don't need to have any data. The most important KPIs. Is it acceptable for Man Utd manager to finish 8th (or not qualified for CL) in 2nd season after spending 400M? Is it acceptable for Man Utd to be outplayed by many smaller clubs? Is it acceptable for Man Utd to have no style of play which was constantly being criticized by experts and pundits?