If we weren't competent we wouldn't beat Luton today with a deserved victory.
Luton at home deserve more credit than what you're giving them. Perhaps you haven't seen what they're capable of on their ground this year.
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Luton at home deserve more credit than what you're giving them. Perhaps you haven't seen what they're capable of on their ground this year.
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I’m just not having it.
The last 30mins of the first half by all means moan about. But the other 60+ minutes of that game we were by far the better side and but for the finishing of Garnacho and Bruno we could have come off there 1-4 minimum.
Luton play really well on the counter so trying to defend high wouldn’t make sense.
The last 30mins of the first half by all means moan about. But the other 60+ minutes of that game we were by far the better side and but for the finishing of Garnacho and Bruno we could have come off there 1-4 minimum.
Luton play really well on the counter so trying to defend high wouldn’t make sense.
I thought we were competent except for the last 30 mins of the first half tbh, just didn't have our finishing boots today and made it harder for ourselves. On another day we could've finished 5,6-1 and this conversation would be very different. The best we can do is to take the lessons from this, which is to control the game a bit more right after getting a 2 goal lead, and to be more clinical with our finishing.
We're unbeaten with Hojlund, Rashford, and Garnacho starting together, versus losing 50% of our matches when they don't, with 2.4 goals per game compared to 1. Hopefully they all stay fit and we can keep the run going.
Nah mate; if it's not death by a thousand passes with a robot up top, it's not football.
Nah mate; if it's not death by a thousand passes with a robot up top, it's not football.
This is a stinker of a post, any way to have a go at the manager and you'll find it.
Boring, unlike the game of football I just watched which was entertaining as feck, isn't that why we all tune in?
If you want Pep ball, go watch City.
I’m firmly in the ETH out camp. However another 3 points today and we really have given ourselves a big chance of CL footy next season. Why can some on here not just enjoy the win ? Spurs dropped points Newcastle as well. Villa look shakey and have bad injuries to contend with. We also have no Europe to bother with. Hopefully players coming back to strengthen team. Things are looking better no?
I dunno, conceding 20 shots a game isn't competent to me. We give up far too much space. You can be a transition focused team without doing that. Plus you just need to dominate games against a certain level of opposition. It's ok to have these games now and then. To have them all of the time is the sign of a bad team IMO.
I don't want Pep ball. I do want us to learn how to control games. I want us to become a good team. Being end to end and conceding 20 shots per game is I promise you not what Ten Hag is trying to do. I worry he's not able to implement the control part though.
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We are a transition focused team in transition ourselves not the finished product.
Do you think Ten Hag has the team he wants to play the football he wants? Simple yes/no will suffice.
Sure. But whatever we are doing in training is not working well. That's an insane amount of shots to concede on a weekly basis. Someone posted the stat, but Klopp's Liverpool have only conceded 20+ shots twice during his what, 8 years there? We concede that every week. That is pure neglect from the coaching aspect to have that every week.
You can be a transition based team that controls smaller games. You can be a transition based team that doesn't let the opposition get free runs at your defence, that doesn't have 60% possession and as many shots as you on a weekly basis. And if this is his actual plan, then it's an even further concern because it has 0 chance of being an actual top team. There's just far too much variance in that style of play.
Many teams have gone there and been beaten. Luton didn’t exactly pepper our goal and we had all the best chances, the better team on the day won.
He has the players to play his style of football, yes.
The football could be better with better players, also yes.
What I also believe is there's no realistic collection of players that will make his football (the way he's coaching us) into a truly top team. Just because he doesn't have Kane and Frenkie de Jong, doesn't mean it's ok to concede 20 shots weekly to teams like West ham, Newport, Luton, etc.
That's true. We were the better team. I still think it's concerning the way we handled that game and if it was a one off, whatever. But its weekly. So I'm going to moan until I start seeing us actually defend well as a team and not give free runs at our defence, and not concede 20 shots per game, and not have teams like luton have 60% of the ball
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Or it’s a process. How do you know what we’ve worked on in training?
Do you not think the development of Dalot, Mainoo, Garnacho and Højlund shows what we’re working on has impact.
Eventually when you are a top transition team you can have some control but the nature of transition football is to take advantage of turnovers of possession which are naturally more chaotic.
I honestly think you’re just wanting the finished product now while we are nowhere near finished building. You’re complaining about the roof leaking while we’ve only really started laying foundations.
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Who are these players that can play his style?
Please name all the ones you think can.
I'm not buying that at all, and I don't think you truly believe that either, so I'll leave you to your incessant manager bashing as you really seem to enjoy it, happy that you're keeping it in this thread for a change though, that's progress.
At least you're in good company in here.
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That’s unfair. If he’s arguing in good faith here he’ll name them so let’s see if that happens first.
He may genuinely believe this and be able to evidence it soon.
The ones who play? I think they're a better group than what our performances have shown. In terms of league position, whatever it's roughly there. It's in the small tier after the top 3. That's a separate issue. It's our performances which I feel just aren't good enough. And going to your other post, it's not expecting a finished product. You should see the occasional dominant performance. We don't dominate anybody, we don't even control games and limit opposition runs and chances against fecking Newport. Sure, you might say it's a byproduct of the development. I just think he hasn't found a way to implement anything other than chaos end to end. Hes been here 1.5 years, we should be much further along and to me, if we're playing like this now, it probably means that it's just because he's not able to get that aspect of control in our play.
A lot of them aren't capable of playing his style though.
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Name them.
It’s a simple request please name the players you think can play Ten Hag’s ideal style here. Ideally 11 if you can?
I'm handing you the batton, I don't have the energy for this.
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I’ll even start you off the players in our squad I believe are perfect for Ten Hag:
- Martinez
- Shaw (when fit)
- Onana
- Mainoo (but needs time)
- Mount (in theory has the right skill set)
- Højlund (but needs to develop a lot in his game)
Constant manager bashing... I'll give him credit when he shows something that deserves it. He's done a fair bit of good work, and I've given him credit for a lot of it. But after 18-20 months, I just think that it's more than enough time to have a fair judgement on where we are and where we are heading. Tactically, I don't think he's it. Recruitment I put 0 blame on him. It's purely the performances on the pitch and the system we play that I focus on. Individual man management I think he's done well, but for me if you don't have the right system in mind or the capability to coach the right system, then he's just not the guy. That's why I lost hope in him and I haven't seen much to change my opinion on it.
Sorry to moan after wins. I didn't moan after the previous 5 games. Just this one. The previous moaning was after the constant defeats...
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You may also notice that one of them has been fit all season .
You lot are so fecking predictable, the general consensus on here when we were all excited by his appointment was that we should be giving this guy a good three years to see his vision out because our squad was in such a shite state and the structure above of a similar standard. 18 months later and you're all calling for his head, pathetic.
Predictable knee jerk bollocks as usual from a clueless fan base.
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@Bosnian red if you’re arguing in good faith here please name them as I did. ^^^
Actually, Antony would have been a very good fit of how Ten Hag initially wanted to play (with inverted wingers), but unfortunately his form dipped massively.
I guess that depends on what you feel is perfect for ten hag. I think you listed players who are suited to playing controlling football. Dalot I'd add to that as well for what it's worth, as well as Garnacho though he's young. Antony suited to it, but just not a good player.
Guys like Bruno and Rashford... Well what I see is a focus on transition football. What he's said is a focus on transition football. Those 2 suit transition football perfectly. I don't think ten hag is trying to implement a controlled style of football, I think it's a focus on encouraging end to end, transition football but just expecting us to win our duels in our half and make better decisions in attack. Which for me is capped.
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Yeah right style of player but just not got the physical gifts and not quite good enough for this level.
Rashford? He is at his best when he has space to run into and doesn't have the defensive discipline for a consistent, high-energy, high-pressing game. I'm sure he'd be great in a counterattacking team, but that's not what Ten Hag means by transition football (in my interpretation), and I think Rashford is a poor fit for his style.
I don't see it in Bruno either. He obviously has great qualities, but I think Ten Hag needs more discipline on the ball. Mount has everything left to prove at United of course, but in theory, I think he should replace Bruno in United's best XI. He might actually be more useful in a position a little further back, where he tends to play more disciplined.
That's 100% what's saving him and why i'm ok with the prospect of having EtH for another year if he can go on a good run now until the end of the season. I'd even take another transition season next year if it meant we could get rid of or phase out some of the likes of Martial, Sancho, Shaw, Rashford, Maguire, AwB, Mctominay and Varane and Casemiro if needs must. These aren't bad players by any means but those four you mentioned are the ones we build around and should be the focus of the project, which will need funds.
The other thing for me is that he has to get a midfield that can start to dominate games more when the counter attacks aren't on. I can live with it for now but i really think it needs sorting next season at least.
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I think the players I listed are well suited to transition football, I think ultimately Ten Hag would like more control of how and when we take advantage of offensive transitions (evidenced by what I’d class as “his” signings and introductions) and to stop defensive transitions from being too dangerous. With that in mind I believe the following are suited in the squad for these brief reasons:
- Martinez - Able to win duels and progress through thirds quickly with confidence in his passing.
- Shaw - Similar to Martinez but also carries well and overlaps well.
- Onana - Key to breaking a press and being and additional option. Plus some great passing ability through the lines (one really good one today)
- Mainoo - Physical ability, composure and technical ability to evade the press and receive on the half turn. Modern midfielder.
- Mount - Composure, technical ability to evade press and receive on half turn. Positional sense outstanding (excellent at finding space between the lines and half spaces)
- Højlund - Physical, pacey, relentless and a good finisher and ball striking ability.
Bruno has the work rate and creative ability that are outstanding but as a No8/10 he lacks press resistance and the ability to receive on the half turn and disrupt opposing defensive lines with anything other than a great pass (which usually requires a ball played into a target man and set back for Fernandes to deliver).
Rashford in form is a frightening counter attacking forward. But he lacks the defensive nous to press effectively for large portions of the game which makes the high press less effective.
Garnacho is also like Dalot being coached into being a more suitable player for this system but isn’t it just yet.
Antony I agree is suited to it but just not good enough for this level. No shame in that.
To be a better side I think we desperately need:
- RCB - Starter
- LCB - similar rotation to Martinez
- LB - A fit Shaw
- RB - (although Dalot may develop into this)
- DM - More mobile for defensive transition
- CM - Another press resistant one
- LW or RW - 1v1s
- ST - Rotation for Hojlund
Agree with that (said same in transfer thread) but I think we could cover 2 and 3 by buying a new robust left back and having Shaw cover both.
Still shouldn't need all of that just to play some decent football though.
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I’m not saying we need all of it to play decent but that’s what is needed to make the squad the right profile.
Regarding the bolded part, I think it's pretty obvious this team is not getting that much "better" in terms of controlling a game, or style of football in general. Sure, having Martinez and Shaw fit would've helped, but this is almost entire first XI against Luton town.
"Soak" the pressure is something I think we should avoid doing. We're just not good at dealing with endless corners, freekicks around the box, runners through midfield etc. Not to mention that when Casemiro is set to play that game he's late to every second tackle, so it's inevitable he gets another yellow(s).
Each to his own, probably there are people who like the football we play, but the fact is we are not going to be a team that controls the game, our manager likes playing basketball games - injuries or not.
Bingo.
They actually have the third worst home record in the league (only Sheffield and Burnley are worse) with 3 wins, 2 draws and 8 losses and have done better away where they rank mid-table.
Rushing back another player and paying the price. Complete and utter overexploitation by the manager. Yet the fanatics will be quick to absolve him of any blame.
Thanks for the breakdown @BenitoSTARR. Any chance of getting the same for LVG's last season with us? In my mind, that was the worst in terms of injuries we had, but not so sure now if it was just the first really injury ridden season or the worst...