Valencia CF v Manchester United

SharkyMcShark

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Wendesday 29th September
19 45

On ESPN
 
...........................Van Der Sar

.Brown..........Ferdinand.........Vidic...........Evra

............Fletcher........Scholes........Anderson

...Nani...............................................Rooney
.............................Berbatov
​
Should be the team, if Fergies lost all faith in Rafael and it seems he has for whatever reason then Brown has to come in at right back, ive had enough of O'Sheas shiteness, hes utterly inept and its costing us big time down our right hand side, add to that he offers feck all going forward as well as being a defensive calamity hes a waste of a space right now frankly.

Away from home in Europe is a graveyard for 4-4-2 and its not as if our defence is up to much right now anyway so 3 in the central midfield is a must for this one, i don't give a shit if its not ideal to have Rooney wide, weve lost Valencia and now Giggs and frankly Rooney dosnt deserve to play up top in his current 'form', Berbatov must start so that means a leftish role for Rooney, arguably where he should be playing on a regular basis in such games with Berbatov in his current form, either that or hes out the team because no way does he deserve to oust Berbatov right now, id still prefer Rooney there to Park though, i dont care how poor Rooneys form is even woefully out of touch hes 10 times the attacking threat Park is.
 
we haven't score a goal in Spain in our last 3 visits and valencia are in great form, I fear the worst.
 
This really hard fixture is why I wish we had not thrown away that game against Rangers.
 
VDS
Rafael Evans Vidic Evra
Fletcher Anderson
Nani Obertan Bebe
Owen

Actual lineup:
VDS
Brown Vidic Evans Evra
Fletcher Gibson Anderson
Nani Berbatov Park
 
Team should be...

GK: VDS

RB: O'Shea
CB: Ferdinand
CB: Vidic
LB: Evra

RM: Nani
CM: Fletcher
CM: Scholes
CM: Park
LM: Rooney

CF: Berbatov

Subs: PIG, Evans, Rafael, Gibson, Anderson, Hernandez, Owen

0-0
 
Allforone said:
...........................Van Der Sar

.Brown..........Ferdinand.........Vidic...........Evra

............Fletcher........Scholes........Anderson

...Nani...............................................Rooney
.............................Berbatov
​
Should be the team, if Fergies lost all faith in Rafael and it seems he has for whatever reason then Brown has to come in at right back, ive had enough of O'Sheas shiteness, hes utterly inept and its costing us big time down our right hand side, add to that he offers feck all going forward as well as being a defensive calamity hes a waste of a space right now frankly.

Away from home in Europe is a graveyard for 4-4-2 and its not as if our defence is up to much right now anyway so 3 in the central midfield is a must for this one, i don't give a shit if its not ideal to have Rooney wide, weve lost Valencia and now Giggs and frankly Rooney dosnt deserve to play up top in his current 'form', Berbatov must start so that means a leftish role for Rooney, arguably where he should be playing on a regular basis in such games with Berbatov in his current form, either that or hes out the team because no way does he deserve to oust Berbatov right now, id still prefer Rooney there to Park though, i dont care how poor Rooneys form is even woefully out of touch hes 10 times the attacking threat Park is.
Click to expand...

Agree with all of this - good post mate.
 
Allforone said:
ive had enough of O'Sheas shiteness, hes utterly inept and its costing us big time down our right hand side, add to that he offers feck all going forward as well as being a defensive calamity hes a waste of a space right now frankly.
Click to expand...

Remind me who created Berbatov's winner against Liverpool.....
 
van der Sar
Rafael Ferdinand Vidic Evra
Fletcher Scholes
Park
Nani Berbatov Rooney
--
Kuszczak; O'Shea, Evans; Gibson, Anderson; Owen, Hernandez​

If we want to finish this Group as winners, I reckon we might have to go and win this game. If we come away with a draw, we could still win the Group as long as we don't slip up again and we beat Valencia at Old Trafford. But I'm sure Sir Alex would want to rest some players in the Valencia Home tie as we have Arsenal the following weekend. We'll be expected to beat Rangers next time, and do the double over Bursaspor, but our away form is seeing us leak goals so we can't take any away game for granted at the moment.

I think van der Sar, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Nani, Fletcher, Park, and Berbatov are dead certs to start in Valencia. Rooney is also very likely to start after Ferguson's comments that he'll be ready for Wednesday - but I wouldn't be surprised if Fergie thinks Michael Owen deserves a start after three goals in two games (admittedly not against the best of opponents, but he's still scoring). It's just less likely due to the fact we probably won't play 442 which is pretty impossible if we're playing both Berbatov and Owen. The right back position is wide open between any of Neville, Brown, Rafael, and O'Shea. I think Brown would be the best suited here really if his match fitness is up to par - but I want to see Rafael get his chances. Maybe trying a bit of youth and freshness in a big game is the right thing to do?

Other than that, the only question mark is Paul Scholes. No one will be surprised if he starts the game, but with a tough trip to Sunderland next week and no Ryan Giggs, it becomes a bit more difficult. I wish we had Carrick fit, maybe he'll be back for Sunderland? We might need to try Fletcher - Carrick - Anderson for Sunderland away with the same front three of Nani - Berbatov - Rooney. Though Park might be asked to start another game. Substitutes like Gibson, Obertan, Owen, Macheda, Hernandez etc will be very important in changing / winning / seeing out these games. It's going to be a tough few games.
 
---------------VDS

O'Shea---Vidic----Ferdinand---Evra

Nani--Fletch/Carrick--Scholes--Park

-------Berbatov---Rooney/Owen or Hernandez


Easily our best lineup for this match.

We need height and aerial ability in our backline for this match as Aduriz is a demon in the air. Valencia may start with one out and out striker in Soldado and he's handy in the air too, although more of a threat than Aduriz with the ball on the deck too.

Hard to choose between out of form Fletch and just back from injury Carrick, but if Carrick was fit and in form I'd have him sitting and making sure to block off the long shots of Tino Costa and Manuel Fernandes, whichever starts. As Fernandes can smash them in from anywhere up to 25 yards and you better make that about 35 yards for Costa.

We need Berbatov up front as he's our top scorer and has shown good form in the air recently and we need 2 up front because he's miles better with a partner. That partner needs to be someone with good speed to get in behind the defence and also someone who can help Berbatov get on the end of crosses and pressure Cesar.
 
I'm tired of out of form players on the pitch, so I say we play this team just to prove a point:

---------------VDS--------------
Rafael-----Vidic-----Rio-----Fabio
Nani---Anderson---Scholes---Park
--------Berbatov---Owen--------
 
Allforone said:
...........................Van Der Sar

.Brown..........Ferdinand.........Vidic...........Evra

............Fletcher........Scholes........Anderson

...Nani...............................................Rooney
.............................Berbatov
​
Should be the team, if Fergies lost all faith in Rafael and it seems he has for whatever reason then Brown has to come in at right back, ive had enough of O'Sheas shiteness, hes utterly inept and its costing us big time down our right hand side, add to that he offers feck all going forward as well as being a defensive calamity hes a waste of a space right now frankly.

Away from home in Europe is a graveyard for 4-4-2 and its not as if our defence is up to much right now anyway so 3 in the central midfield is a must for this one, i don't give a shit if its not ideal to have Rooney wide, weve lost Valencia and now Giggs and frankly Rooney dosnt deserve to play up top in his current 'form', Berbatov must start so that means a leftish role for Rooney, arguably where he should be playing on a regular basis in such games with Berbatov in his current form, either that or hes out the team because no way does he deserve to oust Berbatov right now, id still prefer Rooney there to Park though, i dont care how poor Rooneys form is even woefully out of touch hes 10 times the attacking threat Park is.
Click to expand...

Pretty much agree with this, I think it will be a tough game but I think there will be goals, Valencia are an attacking team so I don't see a dull 0-0 match happening.
 
Whats the point in playing with fear or being too scared to use our strengths to overcome the opposition? Sure its away from home, sure Valencia are in form. But for the previous 2 seasons Valencia have been the pace setters in la liga. 2 seasons ago when Barcelona did the treble and broke all kinds of records, Valencia were top of the league for the first half of the season. Last season they set the all time record for the best start to a la liga season. And for the 3rd time in a row, they are setting the pace early and have similar form to us... But all of that impressive stuff doesnt take away from the glaring weaknesses they have had in the past 2 seasons and still have right now.

Whats going to cost us is being tentative and over-cautious and not attacking them in the ways that we have the most strength. Whats going to cost us is being too worried about their attacks and not trying to exploit their weak points.

We will get all 3 points if we play 4-4-2 with Nani on the right, Berbatov up front and then get quality into the box and in behind the defence for whoever Berbatov's partner is, to chase.

Because while Valencia have had another very good start to the season, they arent that great (yet) and many smaller teams have had periods of the game where they put it on them and only Cesar Sanchez has kept them from dropping points.
 
draw isn't that great if either rangers or buraspor win the other match and we drop to 3rd in the table, we have to try and win.....
 
...............VDS

Brown...Rio...Smalling...Fabio

Nani Anderson Fletcher Obertan

.........Berba.....Owen


That's the team I'd go for on Wednesday.

Completely change the back 4. Vidic and Evra shouldn't be used for every game. We all remember what happened last seasons with some players (I.e. Evra) being overplayed. Evans and O'Shea should be dropped in favour of Brown and Smalling, let them show us if they can do better.

Rest Scholes. At his age he needs to be used sparingly. Giggs is injured. Bring in Anderson and Obertan. I would have said park, but his form says otherwise.

Owen in for Rooney. Rooney has no form at all whereas Owen seems to have his scoring boots on, if he hasn't earned his place in the starting line up, then he should just go somewhere he will actually be given a fair chance.
 
Scholesy said:
VDS
Rafael Evans Vidic Evra
Fletcher Anderson
Nani Obertan Bebe
Owen
Click to expand...

You want us to play Obertan (out of position too) and Bebe who have barely played this season, and Owen who's our third or fourth striker, in a game that we should try to win?
 
Still staggers me how people to this very day havnt twigged that 4-4-2 is a suicide run in europe, dosnt matter who your playing its a fatal system, Spurs played it against some swiss pubmen and were 3-0 down after 20 minutes, and with our defence as it stands no way will fergie expose it in such a manner, we havnt played 4-4-2 away from home in Europe for years.

If we play 4-4-2 on Wednesday ill publically admit live on television to having gay erotica fantasy's involving a blow lamp and Jonathan Ross.
 
Allforone said:
Still staggers me how people to this very day havnt twigged that 4-4-2 is a suicide run in europe, dosnt matter who your playing its a fatal system, Spurs played it against some swiss pubmen and were 3-0 down after 20 minutes, and with our defence as it stands no way will fergie expose it in such a manner, we havnt played 4-4-2 away from home in Europe for years.

If we play 4-4-2 on Wednesday ill publically admit live on television to having gay erotica fantasy's involving a blow lamp and Jonathan Ross.
Click to expand...

Quoted. Though I agree with what you're saying. This will be a tough game for us and the important thing is not to lose. A point will be a good result, we'll do what we've always done away in Europe, play a 451 and try and nick a goal. I think we could well see Carrick or Anderson in this game, I'd be wary of playing Scholes considering he's just had 90 minutes v Bolton. If he plays Wednesday then he definitely won't play Saturday.

I'd go with;

van der Sar
Brown Vidic Ferdinand Evra
Carrick Scholes Fletcher
Nani Berbatov Rooney​

Obviously the front 3 will interchange during the course of the game, we'll actually probably start Berbatov on the right and Nani on the left to begin with.

If Carrick isn't quite ready I'd swap him with Park for a bit of extra defensive stability.

Going for a 1-1 draw, which would be a good result. Draw this and we'll win the group.
 
Pop quiz for those suggesting a 4-4-2 approach on Wednesday, can you remember and name the last time Sir Alex sent out a Manchester United team away from home in a competitive European fixture and played 4-4-2, the last time i can think of was Porto back in 04 when we lined up with Van nistelrooy and Saha, thats 6 years ago........oh yeah and we lost.
 
Just realised I'm gonna miss this game because I'm working, gonna have to Sky+ it and avoid hearing the result.
 
Allforone said:
Still staggers me how people to this very day havnt twigged that 4-4-2 is a suicide run in europe, dosnt matter who your playing its a fatal system, Spurs played it against some swiss pubmen and were 3-0 down after 20 minutes, and with our defence as it stands no way will fergie expose it in such a manner, we havnt played 4-4-2 away from home in Europe for years.

If we play 4-4-2 on Wednesday ill publically admit live on television to having gay erotica fantasy's involving a blow lamp and Jonathan Ross.
Click to expand...

Yes, one game where a team played 4-4-2 against a team with very good tactics specially for the match, proves that 4-4-2 cannot be used in europe.

It couldnt possibly be that the team didnt play well.
 
Ekeke said:
Yes, one game where a team played 4-4-2 against a team with very good tactics specially for the match, proves that 4-4-2 cannot be used in europe.

It couldnt possibly be that the team didnt play well.
Click to expand...

So tell me, why has Sir alex (and every other major manager in Europe) totally abandoned the 4-4-2 system away from home in the champions league Ekeke, is this all coincidence?

Theres a reason we haven't lined up that way for 6 years, and why we wont buck that trend on Wednesday.
 
Allforone said:
Im happy to have a wager with you on the system we adopt on Wednesday if you like.
Click to expand...

I didnt say we wont play 4-5-1 because we probably will. And that'll be a mistake. Would you like to bet on us playing 4-5-1 and getting 3 points?

1 match does not prove that you cannot play a system adapted from 442 in europe. One of the strikers needs to drop in and help link the play. But that pretty much happens in every 442 you'll see these days.
 
Allforone said:
So tell me, why has Sir alex (and every other major manager in Europe) totally abandoned the 4-4-2 system away from home in the champions league Ekeke, is this all coincidence?

Theres a reason we haven't lined up that way for 6 years, and why we wont buck that trend on Wednesday.
Click to expand...

He likes the extra passing options in midfield. It should help have a good share of possession but it also means you have to be patient in the buildup. I can remember Ferguson himself talking about 4-3-3 and 4-4-2. I believe we'll create less good chances with a 4-3-3 and our opponents will be happier playing against it.

For 4-4-2 Sir Alex said its more direct. I think the direct approach is what suits us right now against these opponents, with Nani and Berbatov our form attackers and the fact Berbatov is miles better with a partner. And because Valencia play a high line which could be exposed with some pace. Unfortunately Berbatov is still unlikely to manage that, especially if he's up top alone. So one of our other striking options can get in behind them.

Now the question is, are Manchester United a better football side when they play slow, patient buildup play or when they attack with good tempo and speed?

One more thing I guess, I've watched every Valencia league game for the past 4 seasons (including this). I think I know where they go mushy and where teams have got at them before. Teams nowhere near as good as ours.
 
This is going to be hard. Rooney got a chance of playing maybe on the left in a 451 with Giggs out, otherwise he should be dropped to the bench. Would like to see Obertan on bench and maybe Hernandez.
 
................VDS.........
Rafael...Vidic...Rio...Evra
.......Fletcher..Scholes...
.Nani.......Park......Rooney
............Berbatov

Or perhaps Anderson instead of Park.
 
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