Wayne Rooney | 2011/12 Performances

[Cheesy]

van Persie is an extremely gifted striker, but that's all he is. Sure, he can play with his back to goal, run in behind, work the channels, score and create. But Wayne does all that, in addition to being an effective player deeper and on the wings. RvP is a great striker, Rooney a great player.

You're ignoring the overall game of Van Persie completely. It's only recently he's started to play as an out and out striker. Before that, he was known as being a player who played in behind the striker. I think he'd still be doing that now if Arsenal had more viable options up front.

Van Persie is a lot more than a great striker. He's a great overall player as well.

 

[Cheesy]

I wouldn't swap any of them for Rooney.

I very much doubt you would be saying that if we did sell Rooney, and one of them went out and scored 30 goals in a season for us.

 

[Feed Me]

You're ignoring the overall game of Van Persie completely. It's only recently he's started to play as an out and out striker. Before that, he was known as being a player who played in behind the striker. I think he'd still be doing that now if Arsenal had more viable options up front.

Van Persie is a lot more than a great striker. He's a great overall player as well.

I'm not ignoring anything.

You're re-writing van Persie's history based on his current spell.

When he played in the hole, he was a talented attacker - no more. He's not quite got the game to be a top draw playmaker - I don't think there's enough subtlety to his passing.

There's no doubt he's a top class centre forward, but he never majorly pulled up trees in deeper positions.

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

That's the exact same point Brwned was making, my point was that saying that doesn't prove anything definitive. In the interests of balance, I would nominate several key factors in why we've done so well in Europe over the years, and suggest that Rooney wasn't the one of the big factors.

Are you talking about the same Wayne Rooney that is the all time highest English goal scoring in Champions League history? Wayne Rooney who has scored 14 goals in the knock-out stages of the Champions league in the past five years?

I very much doubt you would be saying that if we did sell Rooney, and one of them went out and scored 30 goals in a season for us.

Well, until we sell Rooney, sign one of them and they score 30 in a season..................then I guess that we will just never know.

 

[Gazza]

Are you talking about the same Wayne Rooney that is the all time highest English goal scoring in Champions League history? Wayne Rooney who has scored 14 goals in the knock-out stages of the Champions league in the past five years?

Yes.

 

[AttackingFlair]

RvP has been a class player as a nine or ten - no one is disputing this.

Rooney has covered the width and depth of the pitch far more though - he's an all round, more complete footballer.

You never see RvP dropping twenty yards off the front to pitch in in the midfield, or spray 60 yard cross field balls.

I thought when he played with Adebayor, he showed that he has great vision/great through ball, unselfish and also great ball retention. He doesn't do 2 or 3 crossfield passes a game like Rooney does but he's shown even with his back facing goal and deep, he can turn and play a through ball, at times he's shown the ability to play longer/lofted defensive splitting passes too. Either way, I don't think there's much in it between them. They're both world class, each has qualities that they're better at but both are very much well rounded.

I wouldn't have him ahead of Rooney but hypothetically if we had to replace him with someone then RVP would be one of the better candidates. Fortunately for us, Rooney is also younger.

 

[Cheesy]

I'm not ignoring anything.

You're re-writing van Persie's history based on his current spell.

When he played in the hole, he was a talented attacker - no more. He's not quite got the game to be a top draw playmaker - I don't think there's enough subtlety to his passing.

There's no doubt he's a top class centre forward, but he never majorly pulled up trees in deeper positions.

Again, you're underrating Van Persie for how good he was there. He was a lot more than a talented attacker. I'd say that the only thing holding him back from being one of the best forwards in the world when he was in that role was the fact that he was injury prone at the time. He's gotten that out of his game now, which is a major reason why he's been so good this season.

He's a better player than Rooney, without doubt. He's a far better striker than him, and probably a better all-round player as well. Sure, Rooney may work hard, he may have a good all-round game and he may be versatile, but all of that doesn't make you a better player than those who play in a similar position to you. If that was the case, then the likes of Kuyt and Park would be regarded among the best wingers in the world. Obviously Rooney is a different case completely, but the idea's the same.

 

[Feed Me]

I thought when he played with Adebayor, he showed that he has great vision/great through ball, unselfish and also great ball retention. He doesn't do 2 or 3 crossfield passes a game like Rooney does but he's shown even with his back facing goal and deep, he can turn and play a through ball, at times he's shown the ability to play longer/lofted defensive splitting passes too. Either way, I don't think there's much in it between them. They're both world class, each has qualities that they're better at but both are very much well rounded.

I wouldn't have him ahead of Rooney but hypothetically if we had to replace him with someone then RVP would be one of the better candidates. Fortunately for us, Rooney is also younger.

Clearly he is capable of playing the deeper of a striking pair, but he's not as varied a player as Rooney. Plus, as you point out, Rooney is a few years younger. We'd be getting the thin end of the wedge if we shipped Rooney out for van Persie.

It's the more intangible stuff that Rooney brings to the table, that RvP doesn't, which makes him such a valuable player to us. Say what you will about his temperament and attitude, he's never grumbled about being moved from pillar to post to suit the needs of the team. He's not averse to dropping into the midfield to lend a helping hand when required either.

My stance doesn't denigrate RvP, it's just to underscore that Rooney is a more complete player.

 

[Jimy_Hills_Chin]

Yes.

Rooney's scoring record, in the knock-out stages of the Worlds premier football competition, in the five best European football years in our clubs history, averages at 2.88 goals a year. Cristiano Ronaldo's scoring record, in the same knock-out stages of the same competition, in the three years that he was involved, averaged at 3.33 goals a season.

An interesting stat when you consider how much more all round game and team work ethic Rooney has over Ronaldo, no?

 

[Art]

Again, you're underrating Van Persie for how good he was there. He was a lot more than a talented attacker. I'd say that the only thing holding him back from being one of the best forwards in the world when he was in that role was the fact that he was injury prone at the time. He's gotten that out of his game now, which is a major reason why he's been so good this season.

He's a better player than Rooney, without doubt. He's a far better striker than him, and probably a better all-round player as well. Sure, Rooney may work hard, he may have a good all-round game and he may be versatile, but all of that doesn't make you a better player than those who play in a similar position to you. If that was the case, then the likes of Kuyt and Park would be regarded among the best wingers in the world. Obviously Rooney is a different case completely, but the idea's the same.

What a load of bullcrap.


Van Persie joined arsenal - 16th May 2004 - 123 goals in all competitions for arsenal - Age 28.Goals per game - 0.42 What has he won with Arsenal? Absolutely feck all.

Wayne Rooney joined Manchester United - 31st August 2004 - 167 goals for Manchester United - Age 26 - Goals per game - 0.43 and what he has won? I'm sure you know.

And this is me not taking the assists into account.

 

[Feed Me]

Again, you're underrating Van Persie for how good he was there. He was a lot more than a talented attacker. I'd say that the only thing holding him back from being one of the best forwards in the world when he was in that role was the fact that he was injury prone at the time. He's gotten that out of his game now, which is a major reason why he's been so good this season.

He's a better player than Rooney, without doubt. He's a far better striker than him, and probably a better all-round player as well. Sure, Rooney may work hard, he may have a good all-round game and he may be versatile, but all of that doesn't make you a better player than those who play in a similar position to you. If that was the case, then the likes of Kuyt and Park would be regarded among the best wingers in the world. Obviously Rooney is a different case completely, but the idea's the same.

Obviously injury held RvP back but, without being harsh, who cares? He can't have those years back. There's no point is speculating how good he may have been during those years when he was missing half a season every time because he was crocked.

He's steered clear of injury now and he's filled his boots, but to be fair every attack ends up with him on the end of it. Mid table sides often set up in this manner, with one front man doing a disproportionate amount of the goal getting work. Look at Ba at Newcastle/West Ham United (who's also had a great 2011/start of 2012) for a similar story.

Fact is, RvP has put in an amazing year and a bit of goalscoring. Prior to that, he occasionally flickered. Rooney has been an integral part of a trophy winning machine for the best part of a decade now. I'm astonished that anyone could think RvP is superior "without doubt."

As a slight aside, I recall RvP performing pretty miserably during the Dutch World Cup run to the final in S.Africa. No goals in seven matches didn't make for pretty reading given he was the lone front man.

 

[Feed Me]

What a load of bullcrap.


Van Persie joined arsenal - 16th May 2004 - 123 goals in all competitions for arsenal - Age 28.Goals per game - 0.42 What has he won with Arsenal? Absolutely feck all.

Wayne Rooney joined Manchester United - 31st August 2004 - 167 goals for Manchester United - Age 26 - Goals per game - 0.43 and what he has won? I'm sure you know.

And this is me not taking the assists into account.

Wayne Rooney

Retweeted.

 

[Gazza]

Rooney's scoring record, in the knock-out stages of the Worlds premier football competition, in the five best European football years in our clubs history, averages at 2.88 goals a year. Cristiano Ronaldo's scoring record, in the same knock-out stages of the same competition, in the three years that he was involved, averaged 3.33 goals a season.

An interesting stats when you consider how much more all round game and team work ethic Rooney has over Ronaldo, no?

Not denying any of that, he's been class for us, overall.

I don't think he was one of the main factors in us winning it in 2008. I think he has been good in our two runners up campaigns since, but not one of the main factors.

And I'm not trying to compare him to other players or compare statistics; my original intention was to balance out the claims that it is "laughable" to question Rooney's world class status. It's not, there is a fair discussion to be had about it when you look at his overall impact on our Champions League campaigns, imo.

 

[golden_blunder]

I have a bad feeling that Rooney will get sent off on Saturday after he seeks out Suarez for a bit of revenge

 

[Art]

I have a bad feeling that Rooney will get sent off on Saturday after he seeks out Suarez for a bit of revenge

Or he has one of those days where he's unplayable.

 

[RedLars]

There are questions as to whether some of these players would come, but £50m would allow us to certainly look at players like Villa, Van Persie or Gomez.

Ignoring that the discussion you've already had, I wouldn't say that any of them are viable replacements for Wayne Rooney, which was what I asked for.

Villa is already 30 years old.

Gomez is never going to leave Bayern the way his career is shaping up there right now, and even if he wanted to Bayern would never sell him to us.

Robin van Persie is probably the only player of those I could see actually coming close to replacing Rooney's contribution on the pitch, but do you really think Arsenal would sell him to us? After a hypothetical sale of Rooney as well, when they have the chance to fleece us? The only viable scenario is if he runs down his contract ala Nasri, which in fairness could happen.

So that leaves us with one viable option of the ones you've provided, and that one is hinging RvP running down his contract.

Yes, we should definitely sell Rooney is someone puts £50 million on the table for a player who's been immense for the club for close to a decade, and is just about to hit what will likely be the prime years of his career.

Edit: For what it's worth I don't think Rooney is irreplaceble as such. If he for some reason is off however, I don't think SAF will bring in another "striker" to try and replace him like for like. There aren't any top quality strikers like Rooney out there.

 

[Cheesy]

What a load of bullcrap.


Van Persie joined arsenal - 16th May 2004 - 123 goals in all competitions for arsenal - Age 28.Goals per game - 0.42 What has he won with Arsenal? Absolutely feck all.

Wayne Rooney joined Manchester United - 31st August 2004 - 167 goals for Manchester United - Age 26 - Goals per game - 0.43 and what he has won? I'm sure you know.

And this is me not taking the assists into account.

There's a lot more to it than that.

I think that Van Persie struggled to hit the ground running in his first few years at Arsenal. It wasn't until Henry left when he really started showing how good he could be.

I'm not one for just using simplified stats like these in any way at all, but to use them over an 8-year period, in which a lot has changed, is even worse.

 

[Art]

There's a lot more to it than that.

I think that Van Persie struggled to hit the ground running in his first few years at Arsenal. It wasn't until Henry left when he really started showing how good he could be.

And that had nothing to do with his ability to adapt to the team?You go on to say he is more of an allround footballer than Wayne Rooney is but you say he couldn't perform when Arsenal still played with Henry?If he really was more 'complete' than Wayne he would've burst onto the scene like Wayne Rooney did for Manchester United. You go on about this Van persie struggled, was plagued by injuries theory when even Rooney has been played out of position most of the time and with his slump in form.Yet Rooney has a better record than Van persie does.

I'm not one for just using simplified stats like these in any way at all, but to use them over an 8-year period, in which a lot has changed, is even worse.

Yes Rooney does have more appearences than Van Persie does. But that is something in favour of Wayne Rooney. He is more fit than Van persie. Has played more games than Van Persie has and inturn helped Manchester United win more trophies and bring United to the last stages of the CL several times.
Just because Van Persie was injured, you can't use that as an excuse to suggest a hypothetical situation where He could've played and scored goals if fit.

And finally how else will you compare two strikers/forwards playing at the highest level if not from stats? Rooney beats Van Persie in every single aspect. Number of goals, number of assists, number of League titles, CL titles, FA cup titles and Carling Cup titles. All this and the fact that he is two years younger than Van Persie is giving him more time to furthermore increase the gap between those two in terms of goals scored and trophies won. Van Persie is a top striker, take nothing away from the lad but for you to suggest that he is easily a better player than Rooney is just blatantly ludicrous. Rooney is a better footballer than Van Persie.

 

[Varun]

Again, you're underrating Van Persie for how good he was there. He was a lot more than a talented attacker. I'd say that the only thing holding him back from being one of the best forwards in the world when he was in that role was the fact that he was injury prone at the time. He's gotten that out of his game now, which is a major reason why he's been so good this season.

He's a better player than Rooney, without doubt. He's a far better striker than him, and probably a better all-round player as well. Sure, Rooney may work hard, he may have a good all-round game and he may be versatile, but all of that doesn't make you a better player than those who play in a similar position to you. If that was the case, then the likes of Kuyt and Park would be regarded among the best wingers in the world. Obviously Rooney is a different case completely, but the idea's the same.

Arent you the guy that believes Scott fecking Parker is as good as Luka Modric? Enough said.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

To be fair, the current van persie is probably better than Rooney. But the question is can he keep it up.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

And when you think about it the overall quality of strikers has fallen quite a bit. Only some years back you had et'o (I've completely fecked that up haven't I?), Henry and Ruud all in their prime around the same few years.

What about benzema? Seems quality for real when I watch them.

 

[Varun]

To be fair, the current van persie is probably better than Rooney. But the question is can he keep it up.

Dont know about that. Rooney is THE complete striker for me and i'd have him ahead of RVP even now. RVP is quality, no doubt, but he's prone to injuries and doesnt have an allround game as good as rooney's for me..

The overall quality has surely gone down though. The Henry's and Eto'os were better than anybody of the current lot.

 

[kouroux]

If you read my entire post its pretty clear that I dont think he needs to be. The best for the club is more important than his personal achievments.

My mistake then

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Dont know about that. Rooney is THE complete striker for me and i'd have him ahead of RVP even now. RVP is quality, no doubt, but he's prone to injuries and doesnt have an allround game as good as rooney's for me..

The overall quality has surely gone down though. The Henry's and Eto'os were better than anybody of the current lot.

Gerrard is the complete midfielder but not as good as someone like xavi or scholes.

Being good at a lot of things doesn't make you the best.

Besides van persie is pretty much good at everything. He doesnt ping 40 yard passes across the field but he is more lethal at the moment and more likely to produce a moment of individual brilliance. Although I would like to wait and see if he can keep it up.

Rooney has a higher potential though. And has reform better for longer. I'm only taking van persies current level into consideration.

 

[kouroux]

Dont know about that. Rooney is THE complete striker for me and i'd have him ahead of RVP even now. RVP is quality, no doubt, but he's prone to injuries and doesnt have an allround game as good as rooney's for me..

The overall quality has surely gone down though. The Henry's and Eto'os were better than anybody of the current lot.

He used to be.

 

[Varun]

Gerrard is the complete midfielder but not as good as someone like xavi or scholes.

Being good at a lot of things doesn't make you the best.

Besides van persie is pretty much good at everything. He doesnt ping 40 yard passes across the field but he is more lethal at the moment and more likely to produce a moment of individual brilliance. Although I would like to wait and see if he can keep it up.

Rooney has a higher potential though. And has reform better for longer. I'm only taking van persies current level into consideration.

Weird example to cite as gerrard is not a complete midfielder at all. what he is is "versatile" as he can play at different areas in the attacking third. He's never been a good let alone great CM.

Anyways back on topic, i wonder why you're picturing rooney as someone who's good at a lot of things but not great at any. he's very good in and around the box as proven by his consistent goalscoring record over the years. He's a wonderful passer of the ball both long and short. He leads his team on and is the driving force behind our play. He's also someone who stands up and delivers under pressure. He also has great work ethic and puts in a 100% shift everytime. His versatility means he can play anywhere in the front 3 and even does a good job at CM as we've seen.

If i was to set about making a new team, i'd pick him everytime ahead of RVP, very good as he is.

RVP is benefitting from a great injury free season and a team that is designed to maximize his play as he's about the only goalscorer they have. We did that 2 seasons ago, and guess what, Rooney scored bucketloads too..

Its a no contest over their overall careers tbh though with RVP playing the way he has, he comes a very close 2nd atm for me. Would still rather have a Rooney in my team than a RVP.

 

[Varun]

He used to be.

I hope so for arsenal's sake and also because i enjoy seeing him as a player but i wouldnt jump to that conclusion as yet.

 

[kouroux]

I know it's tempting to stick with the injury prone tag but I think it's been long enough for it to be removed.Of course anything can happen but fitness wise, he's in a lot better state than 13-14 months.

 

[Varun]

I know it's tempting to stick with the injury prone tag but I think it's been long enough for it to be removed.Of course anything can happen but fitness wise, he's in a lot better state than 13-14 months.

Oh no, dont get me wrong. I actually want him to stay fit because he's about the only chance arsenal have at finishing 4th ahead of chelsea and pool and i absolutely want that to happen. Just that with players of such poor injury records, i wonder how fast and effectively he'l recover from an inevitable knock sometime in the season.

 

[kouroux]

I agree.
It's actually been amazing to see such a crock stay consistently healthy.Messi used to be injury prone and at some point he stays injury free for a long time and it allowed to him to develop into a monster of a footballer (his real transformation began during their treble season).RVP has linked excellent fitness levels with excellent performances on the pitch.

 

[Anduin]

I always admired RvP, fantastic player with loads of potential and in some way it's good to see his career wasn't completely ruined by injuries (a couple of years ago it looked like it might be). But if I got to choose between Rooney and Van Persie it's Rooney every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Better goalscoring record, better injury record (though as already mentioned Van Persie is much more likely to stay fit these days), can play across the midfield as well and has done it against pretty much every opponent.
Not to mention his playmaking skills are still a cut above Van Persie's which should by no means be an insult to the Dutch man... an in-form Rooney (as seen in Spring 2011) is the third best player in the world IMHO. We all know he has some issues with consistency, but overall this particular factor is overstated - he has scored double figues in leagues goals for eight seasons running now, one of the best (if not the best) series in Europe. You don't do that by being inconsistent (in large batches).

 

[Feed Me]

To be fair, the current van persie is probably better than Rooney. But the question is can he keep it up.

RvP is the more in-form player, but Rooney, over the course, is the better all-round player.

 

[Neutral]

I don't think it is accurate to say Messi was injury prone. His debut season in La Liga, he was only 17. His appearances increased over the next couple of seasons, but he was still only a teenager.

Matches in 1st three seasons
9
25
36

He was a boy playing a mans game, and was still physically growing, so injuries are/were to be expected. As he has matured physically, his appearances in the subsequent seasons

40
51
53
55
37*

 

[Feed Me]

Gerrard is the complete midfielder but not as good as someone like xavi or scholes.

Gotta disagree here Amol.

The only thing Gerrard has over Xavi/Scholes is (was) his physicality. It's not to say that he's not been a class player, but nothing on the other two at their best.

If you're asking for complete midfielders, both Xavi and Scholes would rank higher than Gerrard.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Gotta disagree here Amol.

The only thing Gerrard has over Xavi/Scholes is (was) his physicality. It's not to say that he's not been a class player, but nothing on the other two at their best.

If you're asking for complete midfielders, both Xavi and Scholes would rank higher than Gerrard.

Then were getting into what complete means.

I see it as being able to do a variety of things. Gerrard can tackle, dribble, shoot from range, cross, is quick, can hit a good long pass, passed well, is physically imposing, is a leader and can play a variety of positions including out wide. He ticks Moore boxes than scholes or xavi. But he isn't as effective, imo at least, because those two are/were so incredibly good at the aspects of the game that are harder to master and have a bigger impact on the team as a phone (football brain, touch, vision etc)

But he's definitely ticks more boxes imo. He'd make a decent right back, not a bad deep lying midfielder, a pretty good central midfielder, a very very good attacking midfielder/second striker and a good wide player. You can't say the same about the other two.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

I believe the term is 'a jack of all trades, a master of none'.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

Ignoring the whole world class or not debate, I find myself with a question that is not worth another thread inmho.

In all of Rooneys visits back to merseyside with us, either against Everton or Liverpool, Im struggling to remember a game where he was anywhere near his best? Can anyone put me right and suggest why in the majority of those games if not all he was not good enough?

 

[kouroux]

Ignoring the whole world class or not debate, I find myself with a question that is not worth another thread inmho.

In all of Rooneys visits back to merseyside with us, either against Everton or Liverpool, Im struggling to remember a game where he was anywhere near his best? Can anyone put me right and suggest why in the majority of those games if not all he was not good enough?

I remember a match at Goodison Park where the team won 2-4 (IIRC).I thought Rooney was good in that match

 

[Anduin]

In all of Rooneys visits back to merseyside with us, either against Everton or Liverpool, Im struggling to remember a game where he was anywhere near his best? Can anyone put me right and suggest why in the majority of those games if not all he was not good enough?

He was instrumental in the 4-2 victory in the run-in 2006/07, a match that effictively won us the title. Was the main man in the second half in a stunning comeback, still one of my favourite games ever. Phil Neville scored an own goal as well

 

[Orton]

He was instrumental in the 4-2 victory in the run-in 2006/07, a match that effictively won us the title. Was the main man in the second half in a stunning comeback, still one of my favourite games ever. Phil Neville scored an own goal as well

The goals that brought us back into the game were a Neville own goal and a scrappy O'Shea goal where the Everton back up keeper had a howler. Why we were 2 down in that game i'll never know, but sometimes you can tell United are going to come back, like Chelsea last week. Rooney is due a good game against one of the merseyside teams.