Wayne Rooney | 2012-14 Performances
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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I mean for a lad who does that so effortlessly just last season its really astounding how people doubt his ability that hes lost it. That goal is worthy of being a match winner. Shame we lost it. One of my all time favs of his.
Or how about that goal from a couple of seasons back when he killed a massive punt upfield from VdS stone dead and smashed it into the roof of the net?
But yeah, his first touch has never been the same since 05/06
People who rely on youtube videos for evidence of anything have a very distorted view of the world. Highlight reels tell you nothing about the reality of a player's contribution over a 38 game league season.
But yeah, his first touch has never been the same since 05/06
People who rely on youtube videos for evidence of anything have a very distorted view of the world. Highlight reels tell you nothing about the reality of a player's contribution over a 38 game league season.
Does a one in two goalscoring ratio 'prove' anything? Phenomenal for a player that has played centre forward, second striker and on the wings too. Plus, there's been countless assists. Rooney's not perfect, but he has been and will continue to be a great player for United.
Proves you're a brilliant player yeah.
Rooney hasn't really played all that much on the wings btw.
TBf it was your post showing his achievements that was left hanging in the air as some dort of definitive proof, that i objected too.
That was why i countered your stats with Cole's stats, not to deny your claim to Rooney being WC, but to deny that stats are definitive proof of anything. Cole's haul is more impressive in less time, but it doesn't prove anything other than main strikers at Utd, usually score lots of goals and win lots of trophies.
Or how about that goal from a couple of seasons back when he killed a massive punt upfield from VdS stone dead and smashed it into the roof of the net?
But yeah, his first touch has never been the same since 05/06
People who rely on youtube videos for evidence of anything have a very distorted view of the world. Highlight reels tell you nothing about the reality of a player's contribution over a 38 game league season.
I've followed a few of your posts in this thread Pogue and, whilst I respect that you have your opinion and are entitled to it, I think it is clear that Rooney has regressed in some aspects. The point about his first touch...I went to pretty much every home game and a few away in 2005/06, and remember vividly how much better he was in terms of his dribbling/first touch. These things become very clear when you see the man consistently in the flesh. This has been backed up when watching some of the re-runs and highlights of games from earlier years on MUTV; not just goal highlights. The difference is so clear, and I would heavily recommend downloading and watching these games again. Games against Wigan, Bolton, Charlton, etc...his dribbling and overall approach were considerably more threatening (it was actually threatening, if you get me), his touch was a lot more consistent and likely to set him up for goals that he wouldn't score now (not just controlling a dead ball, but actually playing it past a forward in one touch) and he just looked so much more agile. There was a flow to his game that isn't there now, if you get me. If Rooney had the same productivity of his earlier years and the overall level of performance that he puts in quite often now, we simply wouldn't have been as excited about him as we were then.
There was another thing on the other week on MUTV which also showed quite clearly how he's changed as a player - it was Van Nistelrooy's 150 goals for United!
It was so apparent in that how different a player Rooney was then, and I would heavily recommend watching some footage from his earlier years here before writing off the idea that he was better in some aspects.This isn't to say that he's not improved in others (his movement and just general poaching is better now, for example), but I do think you will be very much in the minority with your views on Rooney. It started happening, for me, after that foot injury before the world cup in 2006. There was something very different about him during that 2006 season. Although he started well in that Fulham game, the difference after that was really apparent in my opinion.
All your Cole stats proved that he was a bloody class player as well!
It's not a given that our strikers are prolific - plenty have had ordinary stats.
In any case, Rooney hasn't always been the main man, and yet his goal return is fantastic. It's also undeniable that he's been key to many of our successes while he's been at the club.
I wonder how many of those who criticise him (more than he should be criticised for) will "turn their feelings around" once he's either retired or (hopefuly not) sold.
It's funny how there's always such a greater sense of compasion and general love for a player once he's no longer playing for your team (unless he demands to be traded, or goes to a rival).
It's funny how there's always such a greater sense of compasion and general love for a player once he's no longer playing for your team (unless he demands to be traded, or goes to a rival).
Andy Cole was ace. He was one of my favourites growing up. It's quite sad so many still under rate his contribution.
53 pages discussing a class of player who is an automatic starter for one the biggest clubs in the world and England
Yes he has dips in form, more I'd say he can have a few bad games in a row but even if he is having a stinker he is still capable of doing something extra, something that makes a difference.
Yes he has dips in form, more I'd say he can have a few bad games in a row but even if he is having a stinker he is still capable of doing something extra, something that makes a difference.
It's quite interesting the amount of people that would like to see him dropped. You kind of get the feeling there's an underlying dislike behind most of it too. It's odd really. He's been at the club for 7 (?) years, scored a feck load of goals and always seems to work his sack off.
Granted there are aspects of his game and personality that irritate me but in overall terms he's been a wonderful servant to the club.
Granted there are aspects of his game and personality that irritate me but in overall terms he's been a wonderful servant to the club.
It could also be due to the options we now have. Now, we have similar options upfront as we do out wide. I don't think it would be crazy to drop (or rotate whatever) Rooney or Nani for our next game after their awful performances against everton simply because of the players that can take their places. Valencia is a very good footballer and Van Persie is imo currently the best striker around and a guy Fergie thinks could have a cantona effect.
Unfortunately, his playing style - when he's off-form - makes it look as if he's not really trying or couldn't care less. This is almost certainly the wrong view, but that's how it is.
He's a beefy sort of player in terms of his build, but it's like each of his legs weight 28 stone each when he's off his game. Like he's too far in his head and not really in his body.
id like to see him dropped to get a reaction out of him.
fergie himself openly criticised how complacent rooney can be, even saying that he "becomes more complacent that the others and becomes sloppy"
having van persie and kagawa creates genuine competition for him. rooney wont go through a bad spell this year, because if he does he'l be out.
since ronaldo left a poor rooney has still been our best option. not any more.
ive said it in the RVP thread but competition for places is vital.
two of our star players in rooney and evra over the last few seasons have been garenteed their place. out of all the senior players these two players are the two players most guilty of swings in form.
of course, overplaying could contribute. again kagawa and rvp will help that issue
Two comment above are good observations.
I think Rooney has the worst dips in form of any top player in the league and it is painful to watch. That touch, ugh. That said, he's great when in form.
I think Rooney has the worst dips in form of any top player in the league and it is painful to watch. That touch, ugh. That said, he's great when in form.
None of which i have ever denied. The contention before the thread name change was assessing whether he was good enough to be considered amongst the very best players. Imo he isn't in that class. Not based on his goal return or his trophy count, but on his ability.
Imo the hallmark of a true great is his ability to create space for himself or positively affect the outcome of games with either his influence or his skill. Rooney does not do any of that anywhere near often enough. In tight games where he is closely marked, far too often he can be completely marked out of the game.
Every player can have bad games of course but Rooney seems only to have his worst games when he is not given space. I cannot think of any truly great player who cannot make space to operate in as often as Rooney.
Time on the ball is one ability that all greats seem to have, and it is because of their ability why that is the case. In my view it is where Rooney struggles the most and because of that, it places him below the very best players imo.
Yeh he certainly needs to know he's droppable. No doubt about that. That goes for every player eveywhere though.
He's done that a lot of times over the seasons. Too many to count really.
I think some fans are just determined to believe that he is some kind of uber striker who is the perfect mix between a number 10 and a number 9 when it's just not true. He is simply a striker who can pass the ball better than your usual world class number 9.
I think moving him around the pitch for most of his career has ultimately hampered his all round game as he has never truly mastered a position for a decent length of time.
I think moving him around the pitch for most of his career has ultimately hampered his all round game as he has never truly mastered a position for a decent length of time.
How can learning new things make his overall game worse? I'd say moving him around the pitch into different positions has made him a much better player.
His dribbling wasn't really that good when he was younger either, he was just quicker off the mark.
His dribbling wasn't really that good when he was younger either, he was just quicker off the mark.
Not in tight games where he is closely marked, which is sort of the point. Surely i don't have to repeat that in every paragraph adexkola?
Any player can have a positive influence if he is given time and room to play. The whole point is what he does when that is denied to him, more often than not he performs very poorly under those conditions.
One of the main reasons he annually performs so poorly at Everton imo.
Of course it added things to his game but it meant he never really learnt a position. Most top players have a set position from about the age of 21 and that helps them improve.
You'll never be able to explain it to them, just give it up. Lots of our fans think Rooney is better than he actually is (probably just like the player himself)
In fairness to Rooney though, I think since his explosive Euro 2004, he literally has about 4 men sprint at him whenever he gets the ball, every game, every season. Lots of players do get this treatment - Ronaldo, Modric, Silva etc but I don't think I have ever seen it as much as to Rooney. Even with all of this pressure, he does tend to produce magical influential performances regularly, and then he will go and have a shocker like at Everton, but he is just about human.
I don't think so. All teams focus more on our best players. Did Arsenal and Chelsea give him space when he had stormers against them?
I know his limitations, I just don't think he's that limited.
Sure we're discussing it and we should also be discussing why he is continually selected ahead of others when he's playing so badly.53 pages discussing a class of player who is an automatic starter for one the biggest clubs in the world and England
Yes he has dips in form, more I'd say he can have a few bad games in a row but even if he is having a stinker he is still capable of doing something extra, something that makes a difference.
It's not enough to say that he is capable of doing something extra because when he's off form he doesn't often make a positive difference to the end result.
The PL is a tough league and we can't afford to carry players on the off chance that they can pull something out of the bag for us, especially when there are players on the bench who are in much better form. We have a wonderful strike force right now and I for one don't want to see an off-form Rooney given a starting position ahead of our other superb strikers.
Once Fergie accepts that sometimes it's possible to play another forward instead of Rooney we'll have a better chance of coming away with more decent results.
Now i have pointed it out to you, keep a specific eye for it. It's not just him being closed down, it's him being tightly marked. It is one of the reasons i don't like him up front on his own, i don't think it suits him really.
Look at our 4-5-1 effort against City last season, the title decider. With no support and no service he cannot influence the game at all, because he cannot make enough space with his touch to hold the ball or create something for others.
I have seen that time and again. Contrast that to RVP last year, and you will note a dramatic difference in how his touch and close control can allow him to hold the ball under pressure, then turn to give himself enough space to either bring someone else into play, or have a shot on goal.
That is the difference imo. Scholes was very similar in midfield in his prime.
I don't think Arsenal have ever set up like we did at City. They're never going to play like that so drawing that comparison between an isolated Rooney and an isolated RVP is a bit strange. I don't think any player could have done much better than Rooney in that game, we were largely shite.
Well what he did to get his last contract extension can explain this.
We all know Rooney is a slow starter, shit against Everton, and a sloppy touch when beginning the season or after injury.
Most forwards in the world go through bad spells. Our own Ryan Giggs, Bale, Berbatov, Nani, Walcott, Gerrard, Torres, Ibrahimovich, Robben, Ribery, Gomez, Forlan and many more have been guilty of playing like shit when we all know how good they are.
I've mentioned Drogba before too. Most people see the highlights and think that Drogba is in beast mode all the time when in reality (if we watched Cheslea games regularly like I did) he was completely shit in many games and even looked disinterested at times.
Rooney isn't Henry, Messi or Ronaldo. That's the big problem. People expect him to be every bit as good when it's never going to happen.
Most forwards in the world go through bad spells. Our own Ryan Giggs, Bale, Berbatov, Nani, Walcott, Gerrard, Torres, Ibrahimovich, Robben, Ribery, Gomez, Forlan and many more have been guilty of playing like shit when we all know how good they are.
I've mentioned Drogba before too. Most people see the highlights and think that Drogba is in beast mode all the time when in reality (if we watched Cheslea games regularly like I did) he was completely shit in many games and even looked disinterested at times.
Rooney isn't Henry, Messi or Ronaldo. That's the big problem. People expect him to be every bit as good when it's never going to happen.
What? You think defenders give extra attention to Rooney as compared to Ronaldo and Messi? Why the hell would that happen?
The real issue is that you are comparing him to Ronaldo and Messi, Why? What has he done to deserve that?
How the respective teams set up is irrelevant. The comparison was made to differentiate between both players ability to do something on their own, with no service or suport. Last season RVP scored a lot of goals with very little service due to his ability to make something happen off his own back.
Had Rooney a similar level of touch and close control he would have been able to do something similar, under the same circumstances. This is my whole point, it is not to detract from what Rooney does, but i believe truly great players have the ability to regularly create time and space for themselves under difficult conditions, because of their superior touch and control.
Some players like Hagi and Stoichkov were the only WC players in their teams, so they were very closely marked and often doubly so. Yet they still regularly managed to positively influence those games even under such testing circumstances, because they were so superior in their talent. That is what sets them apart, that ability to do something out of the ordinary, when their team needed it.
Rooney is our talisman and is supposed to be the one who we can look to for similar inspiration. But 11 defeats last year, only 3 points collected from losing positions, and he contributed very little in any of them.
Ronaldo used to do it for us regularly. how many times did it look like we were going to draw or get beat, and he would produce a run, or a pass, or more likely a goal out of nothing to salvage a win or a draw? Many, many times i would suggest, he was the difference so many times, and that is what i do not see with Rooney.
The real issue is that you are comparing him to Ronaldo and Messi, Why? What has he done to deserve that?
No that's not the issue at all. Suggestions that he was more closely marked being used as an excuse for not producing performances like they do when similarly marked, is the real issue.
They are as closely marked as anyone and team tactics will be specifically applied in an attempt to nullify their threat. Yet they still produce top performances and regularly make the difference, often on their own for their respective teams.
I partly agree with you on what you said about him not being suited to the lone striker role in a 4-5-1. It's worked sometimes, but a lot of the time I feel it can just take him out of the game and it should only really be done if 100% necessary in my opinion.
An interesting thought. Saying that, have you ever noticed in football that when you don't think about losing the ball and are on top of your game, you seem to have loads of time on the ball? On the flip side, have you noticed when you are off your game and are a bit cautious with your approach, you always seem to swarmed by defenders and have no time on the ball?
I think defenders smell blood with Rooney these days. I know I'm hammering on in this thread about how Rooney's got this level of anxiousness and how he's stuck in his head, but I think there's something to it.
It's called nostalgia. Applied to football it can often be an emotionally driven non objective memory that players/conditions etc were better in the past than they actually were. A negative mindset that yearns for a return to happier times, usually when things are not going so well.
sometimes it can be a perfectly accurate recollection, if you are an objective person to start with. But if you are emotionally reactive when basing your opinions, then that emotion usually clouds your memory of how things actually were, and they are recollected far more favorably in an effort to justify your present disillusionment.
The real issue is that you are comparing him to Ronaldo and Messi, Why? What has he done to deserve that?
Huh? When did I do that?
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