We are an awfully coached team
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
It's exactly this mentality why Utd haven't made any real progress for years. It was hardly a great performance. It was an ok performance where we were very clinical vs a very poor Spurs side that will probably finish about mid-table. It's not like that lineup or performance will lead us to where we actually want to be, and it's a very valid argument to point out that it demonstrates that any long term planning is out of the window, and we're in a short term do anything to save my job mode. As the transfers simply make no sense if this was part of any long term vision, we'd have paid £73m for a guy we chased for 2 summer's as clearly our #1 target with effectively no place ever in this formation. We'd have spent £50m on a RB who can't attack so is simply not a wing back, and spent nothing addressing a key area of midfield which is a clear weakness, so let's not pretend this is part of any long term vision to get Utd back to the top, it's a desperate effort to save Ole's job.
We were great today. The tactics were spot on and Ole deserved credit but don’t base this on one match.
More often than not this season we have looked all over the place tactically. Hopefully this is a step in the right direction but I’m not getting my hopes up
I'm not sure anyone argued we don't do anything in training. Under 14s work on tactics and formations. It's just not to a high enough standard compared to our competition.
The argument is in 3 years of the current coaching set up, we do not look like an elite football team. We're judging 3 years worth of performances, not 1 game.
My point being that this thread is about us being poorly coached, yet here is a prime example of Ole changing things about, changing personnel and system, in a week, and us getting a positive result.
That would point towards a good coaching structure surely?
Spurs weren't great today for sure, but part of that was the performance of United.
I'm not saying we're title contenders after that, merely that we ARE obviously working on tactical play during the week.
I agree mainly with you.
Just saying that we are obviously working on stuff throughout the week, and it showed today.
In that three years we have reached a European final and finished second in the premiership, not great by United standards, but surely a step up from under 14 standards, wouldn't you say?
Doesn't say much, but I do believe at the start of today they were above us in the tableWe were playing a Spurs side who have been losing left, right and center this season.
Yeah today was promising and it looked like we had a plan which was good. We executed it well but this should be a minimum requirement at this level.
The problem I’ve had is not we get the tactics wrong most games which causes us defeats it’s more the fact that half the time I don’t know what we are trying to do
I don’t think he actually compares United’s coaching to the level of under 14’s, you need to read that post again
So you think that is acceptable against the most toothless team in the PL? Where do you get the idea about the good coaching? Compared to our previous games, yeah, we've looked better. But we still seldom created anything. First goal was Bruno being Bruno and Ronaldo being Ronaldo. Second goal was a lovely individual skill from Ronaldo and the third one was a good pass from McTominay. We didn't exactly dominate the game, we didn't really create much chances or threatened Spurs all that much. We were better in possesssion and Spurs were of no threat to us, which could probably be argued as an improvement given that we concede every game, but that just goes to show how low standards have fallen.
Right you are.
You guys told us to enjoy the win after Atalanta, that we've turned a corner, yada yada, and then Liverpool banged 5 past us.
I want the side to do well. Not exist off short termism that leads to long term failure.
We reached a European final because we couldn't get out the CL group stage.
I wasn't arguing that we're under 14s standard, I was just making the obvious point the fact we do work on tactics in training isn't any indication that we're a well coached side.
It's a team that has spent almost a billion on players trying to scrape top 4.
Rashford, Greenwood and Sancho started on the bench today. If the coaches knew what there were doing them 3 players would be terrorising every defence in the PL. We literally made Spurs look decent at times when in fact they were terrible. Let’s see if Ole sets up with five at the back against Citeh who won’t have a centre forward
That surely is the biggest knock of all. That it seems very clear in October that our goal is top 4, and that's the best we can hope for. How is that in any way progress?
Alright, I am happy to give you that: we have some coaching going on that seems to be at least average. Period.
Apart from that, I see you are trying to take as much positives as you can from todays match and thats totally fair. But at the end of the day, a performance is consisting of attack and defense. And while we have been alright defensively, we weren't anything to write home about in attack. Therefor the performance as a whole is a bit flawed. Nothing wrong with that, the result is very good, the current form is patchy, I'll take a 3-0 win away from home. But it certainly shouldn't lead to any wrong conclusions. Apart from that, after thinking about it, I don't think we should call tonights formation a 3-4-1-2. Because it was more a 5-2-1-2 I think. Semantics I know but part of these 3-at-the-back systems is the existence of wingbacks and nobody can tell me, that neither Shaw nor AWB did anything differently to usually. Which isn't a criticism, just an observation. I get a sense of false security, as if this system change is all we have to do. It won't be the case, today we changed many things: the defensive approach, 3 Centreback, Varane. Nobody knows, how the match would have played out if we had played 4-2-3-1 with Varane and the defensive approach (after all, that approach had quite some success in the last 1.5 years). Probably the match wouldn't have ended very differently.
Hope we spend the next days to give the players a better understanding of the formation though because I think, there were quite a lot situations where we looked quite lost because there were no passing options. This defensive approach should go into the book as the default approach, now the next step is to adjust that to a point, where we look more comfortable in attack as well.
What we did today was simple and it’s the only thing Ole can do, sit back and counter. It’s not enough if want to win the league, the last three years should have been spent taking the team forward not just being same as we were three years ago with some better players.
The fact we have to be genuinely concerned about it baffles me so much. We've just added Ronaldo Varane and Sancho to an already top 4 team and I'd be pleasantly surprised if we actually ended up 4th.
Look, I’m as Ole Out as the next rational human being… but if you didn’t want us to score more after the first one went in, then what’s the point of it all, really?
We’re still a shit show, and we’ll still likely get spanked by City, but even the most masochistic doom merchant would surely agree it’s imperative we win the CL tie midweek… and at the very least this was the best possible confidence booster ahead of that.
Plus it was Spurs. feck Spurs.
We’re still a shit show, and we’ll still likely get spanked by City, but even the most masochistic doom merchant would surely agree it’s imperative we win the CL tie midweek… and at the very least this was the best possible confidence booster ahead of that.
Plus it was Spurs. feck Spurs.
Today was much better in terms of team setup but lads, its spurs. We knew this would be a game that we could bounce back in. Let's see against City next week where we are. I want to see us over the next 5 or 6 games before I commit to a "United qre back" level of optimism.
What exactly is that coaching? Sit back, absorb pressure and counter ? Seriously? I'm done discussing if you call that as coaching because that's exactly what we did 3 years back and that's what we are doing even now.
Everything is moan, moan, moan. Jesus we just won.
Are you suggesting that either City, Liverpool or Chelsea is going to finish below us?
And they missed a sitter before we scored. Spurs were horrible and has been horrible for a long time.
The opposite. I'm very concerned we'll finish outside top 4, hence I'd be pleasantly surprised if we manage to get 4th.
Maybe I'm overreacting because our position isn't that bad yet, but we've seen the dressing room meltdowns under Moyes Mourinho and LVG that lead to midtable finishes, and we've seen it happen to other teams like Chelsea under AVB/Mourinho.
Top 4 is no longer a formality like it used to be under SAF.
Three years though man. Three years.
Three years to play 7 Jose-era players in a formation he’d be proud of, all to be “not title contenders”… What was the fecking point?
And this tone is back. Posters voicing actual concerns should shut up about it since we won/were 2nd/reached an European final/etc.
It took one match. Fantastic.
I think it's fair to note the difference between someone like Conte pragmatically adopting a 3-5-2 to deal with a misfiring team he inherited and Ole pragmatically adopting a 3-5-2 to deal with a misfiring team he built.
It's great that this formation functioned well today in the context of our malfunctioning so far this season. But it's not a positive that a team that went into the season hoping to move away from the need to use the rather conservative McFred double pivot just got arguably their best performance of the season by throwing another CB behind that pivot as well. As an emergency fire-fighting measure I like it, as a culmination of a three-year build not so much.
So yeah, if you want to argue it requires good coaching to switch formations and get it working competently then that's fine. But that's in the context of the Plan A we've been building and recruiting for over three years collapsing due to our management's inability to make it work tactically.
It was made clear that for Solskjaer it's all about the next three games right now though so I have no issue with him doing what he has to do to stay in his job. It worked and that's good enough for today.
It's great that this formation functioned well today in the context of our malfunctioning so far this season. But it's not a positive that a team that went into the season hoping to move away from the need to use the rather conservative McFred double pivot just got arguably their best performance of the season by throwing another CB behind that pivot as well. As an emergency fire-fighting measure I like it, as a culmination of a three-year build not so much.
So yeah, if you want to argue it requires good coaching to switch formations and get it working competently then that's fine. But that's in the context of the Plan A we've been building and recruiting for over three years collapsing due to our management's inability to make it work tactically.
It was made clear that for Solskjaer it's all about the next three games right now though so I have no issue with him doing what he has to do to stay in his job. It worked and that's good enough for today.
I don’t particularly get involved in tactics but last night I had enough. “United way” please don’t that. Mate, just play decent football, like.
I agree with that, it was a good win with beautiful goals.
A final which we lost because our tactically inept coaching team thought the best play was to play for penalties from the 70th min despite our goalie at that point hadn't saved a penalty since 2015. A final we lost because Ole and his team had absolutely no idea how to break down despite our highest earner probably earning more than the rest of their team combined.
And a 2nd place finish in a season where we actual bottled it from a leading postion early 21 by once again failing to beat the likes lf Sheffield United and WBA, well again, because our coached has no idea how to break down a team other than 'give the ball to Bruno lads'. A 2nd place finish which only gave 2nd due to a generally low point scoring season where both Chelsea and Liverpool under performed. A 2nd place where our point total would only had secured 2nd one other season since Fergie left, which is the Leicester season, yet another historic low point season for all usual top teams.
I think the unfolding of last season is and should be just as much of a reason to sack Ole.
Yes. How long can he play yesterday‘s team and keep those 3 on the bench? A significant amount of time and a new set of problems will come up. Sancho especially is unlikely to get ANY significant game time if he relies on that system/team to keep his job. I think as long as Ole is in charge the more likely Sancho flops, which in itself should cause the blard to ask questions. Good performance and result yesterday.
You see, this is one of the frustrations fans may have. Working on how we set-up and play with and without the ball is, er, what football coaching is all about... it shouldn't be some 'damascene moment' or something... Gary Neville nailed it when he stated that other teams have been doing this week in, week out! And not neccesarily the top sides btw...
We have a manager that is taking us to settle for thorough, consistent and absolute mediocrity. Nothing more. We no longer even think a real title challenge is something worth considering under Ole, and he has managed the squad for nearly 150 games and spent bundles, bundles of cash.
Why do some of us want to accept that for our club? Why? Because Ole is nice? I don't understand it... the other top teams in Europe, a number of which have been going through their own transitions, player issues, management changes, boardroom stuff... but they are still strong, competitive teams.
Look where we are?
The most important thing to take from today was midfield shape, thats clearly what we have been working on. We have to take that shape forward with us, the back 5 was an insurance policy because of recent results and performances, to make sure we gave nothing away. But at some point we will revert back to a back 4, but we have to stick with the midfield shape.
Why we played with the double pivot at all this season i don't know, its poor from ole and the coaching staff that and its been our biggest problem we saw it at times last season and alot this season that it leaves to much space in midfield and its to easy to play through and we end up with the attack and defence detached. We never saw that today it was always compact and we felt in control with or without the ball.
Spurs were poor and the second goal come at a very good time for us we were just struggling to get out a little the second goal gave us the breathing space and we were very comfortable watching spurs pointlessly look for openings and looking for counters. We were never gonna take many risks once we got in front today, those three points were to valuable.
First half performance was good though we kept spurs quiet and had some Good spells with the ball, we saw the wingback overloading and causing problems and those overloads were creating space for bruno and Fred to work from more central posistions we also saw mctom and the 2 wide cbs pushing up to win loose balls and keep the pressure on. Those we all repeated patterns in the first half and they led to some decent chances and eventually led to the goal, half chance or not you make enough of them with the quality we have eventually you take one, all the big teams rely on this and more often than not makes the difference.
Think Keane and Souness put it perfectly yesterday. We are not good enough to go toe to toe with any good side - which is a damning indictment 3 years into a Man Utd managers reign. But there is no shame in being honest with ourselves and being a top side out of possession with a really potent counterattacking threat...which is what we have always had the potential to be under Ole.
Whatever Ole thought he was building toward clearly hasn’t worked and until we get a proper coach in, I’d rather see us compact and winning games than watch Ole and his team embarrass us any more with attempts at being expansive.
In our formation yesterday we were like a less watchable West Ham...its better than being who have been so far this season.
Whatever Ole thought he was building toward clearly hasn’t worked and until we get a proper coach in, I’d rather see us compact and winning games than watch Ole and his team embarrass us any more with attempts at being expansive.
In our formation yesterday we were like a less watchable West Ham...its better than being who have been so far this season.
so lads is Ole gonna bin the tried and failed high-line, 'high press' for good?
and opt more for the deep defensive line, 'low block' counter-attacking tactic often now?
and opt more for the deep defensive line, 'low block' counter-attacking tactic often now?
Never really tried a high-line and our "experiments" with high press have been more down to optimism but preparation and we only witnessed one match in a different shape so your question is difficult to answer if not for just a "might be right".
The funny thing is the high press might have rolled Spurs over yesterday, whereas the 7 defenders counter-attack might have got a result against Liverpool. But hey-ho, at least we got three points.
Everything they've been working towards for three years is now in the bin. Stick a load of defenders on and hit teams on the break. If we make it to the knockouts of the CL it might actually get us somewhere in that competition. The league is already gone though.
Everything they've been working towards for three years is now in the bin. Stick a load of defenders on and hit teams on the break. If we make it to the knockouts of the CL it might actually get us somewhere in that competition. The league is already gone though.
Just as I predicted, he's going full blown defensive to save his job. He's fully entitled to do that tbf, but I expect our performances are going to be very dull from hereonin. Whatever, if we keep winning, then so-be-it. It was a good result yesterday, but Spurs were absolutely horrible.
He still absolutely has to go, but as I suspected, he'll likely see out the season. If he finds a system that works, then he might as well stick to it. It's not a system that suits the squad, but he'll have to deal with that.
He still absolutely has to go, but as I suspected, he'll likely see out the season. If he finds a system that works, then he might as well stick to it. It's not a system that suits the squad, but he'll have to deal with that.
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