Hes built a fantastic squad and should get plaudits for it, but he, for some reason, hasn't improved midfield and deserves criticism for that as well.
It falls on him
We are an awfully coached team
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It falls on him
This is where difference of opinion comes in, obviously. If he were to improve on last year it would almost surely mean trophies. If he’s improved 3 years in a row, why not trust a 4th?
I know the kind of reasons you’ll give as to why he should be done, so let’s just leave it at that.
An improvement on last season in theory could be another 2nd place finish without a title challenge, but winning the Europa League instead of losing in the final.
That would be a terrible season in my book. It'd be yet another failure to challenge for the Prem, and suffering another embarrassing group stage exit in the Champions League.
He’s still playing Mourinhos midfield, really. Fred, Matić, Pogba and to a certain degree McTominay. His only first choice addition is Bruno. Problem area.
He spent £40m on a backup for Fernandes who never plays instead of looking at a new central midfielder to replace some of the dross that currently still starts there. The lack of improvement in the midfield is on him.
Exactly. And he signed Dan Jame and spend on two young talents last summer. A manager who thought a CM was essentially would have made sure he did that within the 300 plus million of spending.
Agreed. This is one of the reasons why I’m not a fan of blanket statements about what constitutes success or failure.
Problem with Ole in my view is that he is not really flexible with his choices. This didn't start last summer, imagine in 2019 we spent £140m on Maguire and AWB, get me right, they have done reasonably well but I don't think either has gotten to any lengths to justify their fee since then. We still needed a midfielder then.
We then finished the 2019-20 season playing a 4-2-3-1 with Matic, Pogba and Bruno in midfield. How we then decided to push Bruno up high or how we thought it would be okay not to seek Matic's replacement is beyond me. After deciding not to pursue Sancho we still spent £70m on players that did nothing for the first team. It's not like you wouldn't be able to get a decent DM for half that price.
This summer we didn't look for one or prepared to sign one. We had players that interested other clubs, we could have sold Donny, James and Martial for decent fees and raised enough to sign a DM but Ole would rather wait for Rice.
That's three summers where we could have signed a DM but didn't because the manager is not flexible. This summer it could be argued that we didn't need Sancho at all but we still dropped £70m odd on him and left the midfield situation to fester.
I think, the bolded parts are interesting points. On the first, I agree, the thing isn't just to find good players for each role, it is needed to define roles to make sure, you stay balanced. Depending on certain situations and needs, you still can adapt to individual games or in-game even but balance is the thing to strive for.
The second part I disagree though. I think, that just slams the door without really looking into it. There is a simple reason why we not even think about having Fred, McTominay AND DVB in the middle of the park for some games - and this reason is nobody wants to miss out on some of the talent in attack.
Last year we afforded ourselves to have Pogba, Martial, Rashford (2021 edition) and Greenwood attack without compensating for the lack of workrate this will end up in. When Cavani came in for Martial, we were so happy because it was so good to our play. Now we added Ronaldo and Sancho and all people can think of is a shiny new DM to finally be able to play both Bruno and Pogba in Midfield and still being able to choose three attackers. It is an understandable thought, no question about it, but it will always be unbalanced and therefor easy to exploit. No DM in the world can win a midfield battle on their own, that particular issue will persist no matter who we field in midfield as long as we are not making sure, the rest of the team supports the midfield as it is the most important area on the pitch these days. Exhibit A: yesterdays match where we were denied to have any sort of service into the attack.
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My fear for Sancho is seeing how he’s made no effort to integrate VDB into the team. If he doesn’t know how to use you he just…won’t. We never tried to accommodate VDB. We didn’t try and work Sancho into a system nor did we try and develop a system around him. He named him in the team, it didn’t work out and now he’s on the bench.
I worry Sancho will go the same way. We’ll never accommodate him. He’ll just be plonked in middle of a team with no identity or style and if it doesn’t work he’s out and we need to get those ‘parasite owners’ to buy another midfielder.
VDB’s failure is entirely down to mismanagement. He hasn’t been given fair crack and failed. He wasn’t given the chance. So far it has been same with Sancho and I can’t see that changing
I worry Sancho will go the same way. We’ll never accommodate him. He’ll just be plonked in middle of a team with no identity or style and if it doesn’t work he’s out and we need to get those ‘parasite owners’ to buy another midfielder.
VDB’s failure is entirely down to mismanagement. He hasn’t been given fair crack and failed. He wasn’t given the chance. So far it has been same with Sancho and I can’t see that changing
Ole has spent almost 100 milion on the midfield including DVDB. The midfield has been addressed, a 6 is the only position that hasn't been catered to.
Do we actually know how much say Ole has in transfers? If he actually is just part of a transfer 'committee' then his overall performance as manager comes even more into focus. Love the guy, but he's not up to it. Never was and never should have been given the job.
Ole supporters will claim he has a huge role in it, but once the VDB transfer is mentioned, they'll say the board forced it on him.
But hasn't Solskjaer come out in interviews saying he's trying to bring back Man Utds philosophy?
Under Ferguson you guys were never really a possession based team but one that counter attacked well, played good combinations in the final third and relied on individual brilliance on occassion. I honestly believe, although Ole clearly has limitations, this is the system he's trying to implement. The issue is some of the players on the team don't have the leadership nor discipline of a Keane or Neville; perhaps a few players do not properly respect Ole.
Agreed, I think he is doing just that. But Ole isnt Fergie. Just because Ole is trying to do it that way doesn't mean that he'll have the same success, the same way that Hassenhutel probably won't ever emulate Klopp.
Yeah, I mean I suppose that’s possible right. My issue is picking and choosing what we give him credit for, and I suppose in fairness the opposite is true. If I give him the benefit of the doubt about the transfers then I have to say “what is he doing with them”, and the answer is quite simply nothing.
That kind of stuff does absolutely nothing for a balanced debate. It's really annoying and agenda driven.
It's more addressed at the people that praise him for the squad he's built yet absolve him when it comes to our midfield woes.
Can't have it both ways
From my point of view, Ole has continuously insisted in the media that he plays a big part in the recruitment and has a veto right, so he deserves the praise and blame for any transfer dealings.
Spot on. You have to take the good with the bad, and being selective to suit an agenda is ridiculous.
Don’t think he has any clue what to do besides try to emulate the past but has no idea how. Even when we would win playing like shit he seemed to seem overly proud of that, as if it represented the ‘United way’. It’s why we’ve never seen an attempt to impose any kind of system because there’s a belief that simply being United will be enough.
It’s almost as if how we play is irrelevant, it’s all about the comebacks and the last minute goals.
It’s almost as if how we play is irrelevant, it’s all about the comebacks and the last minute goals.
Not sure how this is the case.
Just looking at the league, we got 74 points last season with a xPTS of ~66, so results were far better than the performances and we were still miles off winning the league title. If we increase our points total and performance level such that our points total reflects the quality of the performances, then we have improved. However we were so far off last season that slight or decent improvement on last season won't be enough, 80 points won't win you the league this season for example. With the signings of Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo, anything but an improvement in the points total and the performance metrics would be a complete disaster. The issue is Liverpool/Chelsea may improve more than we do in which case we could potentially go from 2nd to 3rd/4th despite being a better team than lasts season. From what I've seen so far, I don't see us winning the league as the performance levels just aren't high enough - we've been outplayed by Southampton, Wolves and Villa already.
On the Champions league, we're sweating getting out the group stages again. After seeing us bottle the group last season and then our disastrous start against Young Boys, I'm not sure how we could be giving ourselves a high chance of winning the trophy.
We're already out the League cup. That leaves the FA cup as our most likely chance at a trophy. Again a cup competition a bit of a lottery depending on luck of the draw etc.
If we win the Europa because we failed to get out the CL group stage that's an absolute disaster and frankly we'd be celebrating failure if we saw it as an achievement.
Top 4 isn’t an issue for us. Don’t worry you won’t be playing in Europe for a while.
Well if we are 2nd with 5 points more, and still far off a title challenge, no trophies we have "improved" as well.
That's ridiculous. You'd celebrate any trophy after 5 seasons without one and being regulars in the Europa League. It's not 2009 anymore.
Sometimes it takes a while to integrate new players, so it’s a step back before we hopefully do two or more forward, right? I agree that you’d want more than a marginal improvement with the kind of window we’ve had. And I’m not saying we’ll necessarily pick up a throphy if we improve on last year, but I’d think it’s likely. We’d have to improve a lot on last year, but last year was completely screwed up by the pandemic. We effectively had no pre-season, and good lord it showed and we were laughed at in the beginning. How did that all pan out? So I think the situation warrants some patience and trust. The kind of thing I think of when I hear the word supporters. Not that people are wrong to voice misgivings, yesterday was a real shit sandwich.
Also, you mention our weak start in the CL group, last year we came flying out the gates, then we got complacent. And a bit unlucky. Martial should have had PSG dead and buried, and instead we get Fred sent off (partially on Ole that), and we brick it against Red Bull. You grow, learn, add better players, and you don’t judge this early on when we’re still in for three trophies. At least that’s where I’m at for now.
We’d also have outperformed two of the other teams which can’t be sneezed at. Should Ole be sacked if he finishes ahead of say, Klopp in the league two years in a row? Ahead of two of three managers whose shoes he supposedly isn’t fit to lace?
You're right it's 2021 and we're in the Champions League. We're not in the Europa League. The only way we could be in the Europa League is failing to get out a group containing Young Boys, Villareal and Atlanta. I am not willing to pretend the manager has done a great job by winning the Europa when only sheer incompetence could get us into that competition in the first place.
We're talking about assessing the manager here. Sure the fans can celebrate winning a football game, but that's not the same as pretending the manager has done a great job.
I still cringe and at this point laugh at us still trying to pass it out from the back to just disastrous effect the majority of the time.
It's simple for me. Uniteds best system is 433 with an emphasis on being attacking and direct rather than a possession based style. Most of your players suit this approach and it's also closer to the philosophy wielded under Ferguson for years.
So many great and talented players but I just feel Ole doesn't have that kind of personality or even tactical nous to extract the potential from this squad.
De Gea
AWB Maguire Varane Shaw
Matic
Fernandes Pogba
Greenwood Ronaldo Sancho
If coached and instructed to play using direct patterns, I feel this team could be almost unstoppable. The wide forwards would regularly rotate with Rashford and Martial whilst Fred, whose not that reliable, could step in for Matic on occassion. In January or next summer sign Ndidi or Paulihiha from Sporting to upgrade the CDM role.
The key for me though is the management and particularly their ability to build a culture of accountability. For instance, if Pogba is not willing to work hard out of possession in this system; VDB or Mctominay in and Pogba out. When Fernandes continually gives possession away which leads to turnovers, he needs to be dropped. You could switch the wide forwards like Guardiola does at City to keep everyone on their toes and to maximize performance. The system would also help disguise Wan-Bissakas weaknesses as with a forward in front, he'd need to hold his position more and be ready to defend.
All of this is possible but it seems the management lack the aptitude to change the culture whilst the coaches aren't tactically as versed compared to their competition. Seeing the amount of quality players in that squad, it should be performing much better.
So many great and talented players but I just feel Ole doesn't have that kind of personality or even tactical nous to extract the potential from this squad.
De Gea
AWB Maguire Varane Shaw
Matic
Fernandes Pogba
Greenwood Ronaldo Sancho
If coached and instructed to play using direct patterns, I feel this team could be almost unstoppable. The wide forwards would regularly rotate with Rashford and Martial whilst Fred, whose not that reliable, could step in for Matic on occassion. In January or next summer sign Ndidi or Paulihiha from Sporting to upgrade the CDM role.
The key for me though is the management and particularly their ability to build a culture of accountability. For instance, if Pogba is not willing to work hard out of possession in this system; VDB or Mctominay in and Pogba out. When Fernandes continually gives possession away which leads to turnovers, he needs to be dropped. You could switch the wide forwards like Guardiola does at City to keep everyone on their toes and to maximize performance. The system would also help disguise Wan-Bissakas weaknesses as with a forward in front, he'd need to hold his position more and be ready to defend.
All of this is possible but it seems the management lack the aptitude to change the culture whilst the coaches aren't tactically as versed compared to their competition. Seeing the amount of quality players in that squad, it should be performing much better.
I can get on-board with that in general, but to what extent do you think its down to tactics, and to what extent do you think it's down to the lack of technical ability from our two CMs?
I'm starting to think this season is going to be a write-off if we stick with McFred, so we might as well try something different. Could we try Pogba and dvdB/Matic at CM (especially at home) and have Fernandes as the #10?
I'm worried all this talk about how many shots we are having is a Red Herring, because we're not really creating chances
Yes but you know what I'm trying to say, times change. For example, in the last five seasons; 16-17 to last season, have you played more Europa league or Champions league matches?
Obviously theres been progression in the last couple of seasons but ultimately the stats show United have been more of a Europa rather than champions league club for half a decade despite the amount of money spent. Therefore winning a Europa trophy shouldn't be looked down on. Imo, that would be great success just as it would be for Arsenal.
Yesterday it showed that the team has no understanding with each other. There are so many easy but misplaced passes, so they don't know how the other player is going to move
We often look like a bunch of strangers playing together. The amount of simple passes that we don't seem to be able to make is staggering. Players don't often seem to be where the others expect. There's just such a disconnect so often. We're not a cohesive unit.
To many people wanting to have their cake and eat it on here.
You can't say that we are poor because we score more than expected goals state, yet on the other hand say we are poorly coached because we rely heavily on individual brilliance.
Surely players producing moments of quality shows that they are being coached in the right way?
You can't say that we are poor because we score more than expected goals state, yet on the other hand say we are poorly coached because we rely heavily on individual brilliance.
Surely players producing moments of quality shows that they are being coached in the right way?
Yeah, I'm sure our increase in players producing more individual brilliance has nothing to do with buying better players.
Agree. If you look at Ole’s actions rather than his words, he seems to possess a very basic, pre-modern understanding of football. A Roy of the Rovers reliance on individual brilliance, with no appreciation of midfield or structure. Sometimes this will work, as we’ve seen- because he has brought some great players to the club. But often it won’t work- as we’ve also seen, and are seeing more and more frequently.
At one point I thought he would learn, but there’s actually no sign of that. Like many others, I guess, I’ve had enough.
Considering it's been accusation against Oles United since he took charge you'd think people might have started changing their tune by now.
Yeah, I'm sure our increase in players producing more individual brilliance has nothing to do with buying better players.
I mean it was an accusation when we had Lukaku up front
This. Fecking this.
Coaches don’t coach individual brilliance at this level. They’re not out with Ronaldo with a cone teaching him tricks.
What they are there to coach is systems, a tactical approach, what to do without the ball, how to set up etc. All of which we’ve been horrendous at for a while