We are an awfully coached team

Can we give some positioning structure to the forward players? It's like everyone can just run whereever they want at any point in time. The left winger is on the right wing; the centre forward is deep in midfield; the defensive midfielder is playing left wing.

I mean, what the actual feck?

I like interchangeable positions sometimes but this is just a mess.
 
redIndianDevil said:
We have to get rid off the stupid idea that persists in our fanbase that Ole hiring a coach can solve the problem. Just because SAF did it in his later part of his career doesn't mean it's going to work the same for the average Joe and Ole is average Joe compared to SAF. If the coach is much smarter and capable of making us play well than Ole, why is he going to work under Ole in the first place. What respect will Ole command with the squad when they get to know that second in command is much better than Ole.

Yes a modern manager is not going to handle every department of coaching but the idea should come from the manager not from the coach. For example it's obvious that Guardiola cannot coach Ederson but Guardiola knows he needs a sweeper keeper who isn't afraid to come out of the box and will hire a coach who knows how to improve that part of Ederson's game. SAF managed to make it work in the later parts of his career because of his sheer pedigree and the respect he commands.
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I am beginning to think that people on here think SAF was just a cheerleader and had his coaches do everything. It's disgraceful and disrespectful to SAF.

Every single assistant that worked under SAF has utterly failed when they've moved on elsewhere. It's no coincidence.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
Or we just get in a manager that does all of that?

I mean now we need to get him better coaches in every possible facet in order for Ole to be a great manager?

It's honestly nonsensical. The amount of placating towards him is something I've never seen before.

I know you're not trying to absolve him, but how much more does he need? Maybe it's just obvious by now that he's not a top level manager.

He is who he is. A solid-good manager capable of securing top 4 football whilst playing fairly average football without the tactical nous to implement a pressing game nor a controlled possession game nor the ability to content for trophies.

Managers don't suddenly become amazing after 10 years of coaching. It's rather evident right away. Maybe he needed a season to get to grips with the Premier League managing a big club, but he's been here 3 years now. This is what a Ole team will always look like. Sometimes good, sometimes bad.
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Only with a squad capable of competing for the title.

Why can't our fanbase just accept that SAF is one of a kind and move on? Fanbase across the world are okay with getting rid off failing managers.
 
spiriticon said:
Can we give some positioning structure to the forward players? It's like everyone can just run whereever they want at any point in time. The left winger is on the right wing; the centre forward is deep in midfield; the defensive midfielder is playing left wing.

I mean, what the actual feck?

I like interchangeable positions sometimes but this is just a mess.
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We definitely need more structure.

We opt for Hollywood passes way too often. We also often have 4-5 players lined up in the same horizontal line making similar runs. It's tumescent stuff at times.
 
I wish we would take more chances with getting the ball into the box. We seem to work the ball up the pitch, get to their penalty box, then pass it from side to side in an arc around their box, without ever trying a shot or a ball into a dangerous area.

It felt a waste last season when Cavani was tirelessly making runs but no ball was incoming...and is even more so so far this season, given we have the greatest goalscorer ever to be on the end of them.

I just don't get why we don't try an early cross more often. Right after kick off last night, after Ronaldo spread the ball to Greenwood, there was the chance of a first time cross but instead Greenwood hesitated, slowed, stopped, turned around, and then passed it backward and we settled into our toothless, pointless passing from side to side. In that instance, when Ronaldo was making his run into the box, and their defenders were sprinting back towards their own goal, then surely a whipped in ball is a more dangerous option than stopping and starting again?
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
Or we just get in a manager that does all of that?

I mean now we need to get him better coaches in every possible facet in order for Ole to be a great manager?

It's honestly nonsensical. The amount of placating towards him is something I've never seen before.

I know you're not trying to absolve him, but how much more does he need? Maybe it's just obvious by now that he's not a top level manager.

He is who he is. A solid-good manager capable of securing top 4 football whilst playing fairly average football without the tactical nous to implement a pressing game nor a controlled possession game nor the ability to content for trophies.

Managers don't suddenly become amazing after 10 years of coaching. It's rather evident right away. Maybe he needed a season to get to grips with the Premier League managing a big club, but he's been here 3 years now. This is what a Ole team will always look like. Sometimes good, sometimes bad.
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And who would that be?

You know as well as me that every manager past and present have relied on their backroom staff to be succesfull. Ole has shown his strenghts lie in man mangament and i would argue squad building, but the actual coaching is lacking. I was half joking about us needing a coach for every facet of the game, but when Rui Faria was replaced by Carrick and McKenna under Jose there was a pretty noticable drop in our performances

All im saying really is that if Ole wants to keep his job he needs new coaches to cover for his weaknesses
 
redIndianDevil said:
Only with a squad capable of competing for the title.

Why can't our fanbase just accept that SAF is one of a kind and move on? Fanbase across the world are okay with getting rid off failing managers.
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I'm guessing that's not directed at me, because I have moved on.

There will never be another SAF. This club and the fans should stop pinning for a replica. It's la la land thinking.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
We definitely need more structure.

We opt for Hollywood passes way too often. We also often have 4-5 players lined up in the same horizontal line making similar runs. It's tumescent stuff at times.
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Also, the times in the second half when we were passing the ball quickly we were so much better. When things slow down, our players hesitate and seem to only look for the simplest / nearest pass. And our passing is not actually that good – it doesn't take many before one pass is slightly off target, so the receiving player has to stretch...which affects the next pass, and the one after that is when we lose it.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
I am beginning to think that people on here think SAF was just a cheerleader and had his coaches do everything. It's disgraceful and disrespectful to SAF.

Every single assistant that worked under SAF has utterly failed when they've moved on elsewhere. It's no coincidence.
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Exactly. Mourinho lost to Sevilla, Mourinho fanboys then were like "well SAF lost sometimes too". Now Ole hasn't won anything for 4 years, idiots now "SAF didn't win for 3 years too". Like you said it's utterly disrespectful to SAF that comparisons like these get made constantly.
 
Bobcat said:
And who would that be?

You know as well as me that every manager past and present have relied on their backroom staff to be succesfull. Ole has shown his strenghts lie in man mangament and i would argue squad building, but the actual coaching is lacking. I was half joking about us needing a coach for every facet of the game, but when Rui Faria was replaced by Carrick and McKenna under Jose there was a pretty noticable drop in our performances

All im saying really is that if Ole wants to keep his job he needs new coaches to cover for his weaknesses
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A lot of the successful managers today focus on those things you mentioned.

Managers definitely get aided by their backroom staff, but the backroom staff is an extension of the manager itself. They will follow his lead. The manager is still the captain. He's the reason a club will have success or not.

I don't think Faria leaving had much to do with our meltdown under Jose. It was typical Jose meltdown in his 3rd season. It would have happened regardless.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
I'm guessing that's not directed at me, because I have moved on.

There will never be another SAF. This club and the fans should stop pinning for a replica. It's la la land thinking.
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No not directed at you. It bugs me that the match going fans still back Ole, it's like if you are against the manager at Manchester United, its like going against SAF.
 
spiriticon said:
Can we give some positioning structure to the forward players? It's like everyone can just run whereever they want at any point in time. The left winger is on the right wing; the centre forward is deep in midfield; the defensive midfielder is playing left wing.

I mean, what the actual feck?

I like interchangeable positions sometimes but this is just a mess.
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I agree with this.The constant swapping worked fantastically when we had Ronaldo, Rooney at Tevez, but we don't. And it feels as though our players have no clue where everyone else is, or even where they are supposed to be.
 
Bobcat said:
And who would that be?

You know as well as me that every manager past and present have relied on their backroom staff to be succesfull. Ole has shown his strenghts lie in man mangament and i would argue squad building, but the actual coaching is lacking. I was half joking about us needing a coach for every facet of the game, but when Rui Faria was replaced by Carrick and McKenna under Jose there was a pretty noticable drop in our performances

All im saying really is that if Ole wants to keep his job he needs new coaches to cover for his weaknesses
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Which again is not really much of a skill for elite managers. It's very rare to see players throwing hissy fit and revolting under a competent manager. Players actually respect manager who improve the team and improve them. Guardiola, Klopp have all mercilessly sold players or frozen them out of their teams but you don't see the squad acting out.
 
NK86 said:
In our current starting 11, 7 out of 10 outfield players are ones who Ole bought or promoted from within the club. Yet his supporters want more time and more players (after 3 years) to see if we can have a pattern of breaking down low block, better pressing, and handling high press ourselves.

Will a new manager be given this kind of leeway if he wasn't a former player?
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Slightly disengenous to put 7 of 10 players and 3 years right next to other. Implies Ole has had a settled team of his choosing for 3 years.

Three were bought in the last month so another way to say it (depending on your stance on Ole) would be less than half the team who started were here before Summer 21.

(To be clear, last night's performance was poor for 50-60 minutes of the game)
 
I really don’t get it. We’ve seen Fred and Scott play really well in a lot of games. But this season they’ve completely just lost it. It’s like we are playing with 9 men. They are just invisible and when they aren’t, it’s because they made a mistake. No creativity and no idea. So in saying that we need someone who can command or at least control himself in the midfield and VDB is there. He’s always sure of himself and rarely loses the ball, always pass and move. Yet Ole doesn’t play him because he probably slept with Haaland or something. The whole game against Villarreal, we were just lumping it up the pitch. Couldn’t simply move the ball up the field. What the hell are they doing in training. Either the staff are full of idiots or the players won’t do there jobs right.
 
When our players receive the ball most of the time they need to make a few touches and look for their team mates to make the run and pass. It's worse in the final third of attacking area, more often than not no movement at all. It slows the game down so much.

The players are usually left with no option but to make spectacular passes or rely on individual brilliance to create or score goals. When it works its great and when it doesn't we are awful to watch. We rely heavily on individual brilliance and not team work/style of play.

In contrast, City and Pool players know exactly where to pass, where to move, trust each others and play free flowing football.
 
We are laughing stock for most neutral/opposition fans. How can we spend so much money and play worse than the likes of Wolves, Villa, Young Boys and etc.

Ole keeps needing this and that for his team to play better. Apparently, he now need a new CDM, CM, few new coaches in various departments before his team can play good football.

He spent hundreds of millions in defence and attack. But defence is still shaky and attack is disjointed.

We also bought VDB and Sancho and we have no idea how to play them.
 
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Villareal left winger got into 1v1 situations with Dalot 6 times in the first half alone, that does not happen by luck, the entire team passes between lanes, moves the ball and themselves to have that happen, that's not an accident, it takes is players knowing where to go and how to progress the ball, repeating these patterns in training dozens of times.
If we can start doing that with our wingers, give Rash Greenwood and Sancho 8-10 opportunities to run at the fullback 1v1, we're going to be so lethal because all 3 of them are capable of beating defenders.
This is just one example of why I think our coaching is holding the team back.
 
That we are discussing his assistants is bizarre.
We are competing against rivals with the best tactical minds in charge and all we can do here is say he needs better coaches. What the feck is this?
 
10 headless chickens running around the pitch last night. It's actually an embarrassment to watch.

There is no shape with or without the ball. Look at Klopp, Pep, Tuchel every player knows exactly their posistions. Our players seem to get a free roam and to do whatever they feel like.

Had to rely on another moment of brilleance to equalise.

Our quality will only get you so far. We should be dominating teams and why Ole felt the need to play both Fred and Scott against Villa still bemuses me.
 
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Yakuza_devils said:
We are laughing stock for most neutral/opposition fans. How can we spend so much money and play worse than the likes of Wolves, Villa, Young Boys and etc.

Ole keeping needing this and that for his team to play better. Apparently, he now need a new CDM, CM, few new coaches in various departments before his team can play good football.

He spent hundreds of millions in defence and attack. But defence is still shaky and attack is disjointed.

We also bought VDB and Sancho and we have no idea how to play them.
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Great point. The goal posts are always in flux with those who still want to keep Ole. When the team was winning 5-1 and 4-1 at home, he was going to win us the league. Now that the team is back to a level that reflects the coaching at the club, the players are suddenly not good enough. We bought a multiple champions league winner, a world cup winner, and one of the best young talents on the planet, but apparently without a CDM, we can't implement a style?

Good coaching won't always win matches (that does depend on the quality of the players to a significant extent), but at least what is being attempted on the pitch will be clear to see.
 
I dont wanna waste time on this anymore. I wanted Ole out since basically the start cuz I realized right away he was an amateur at this stuff and just doesnt have it. PE teacher, call him whatever you like, its how I see him, as the worst manager in the PL who will never get a job in the PL again.

After 3 years it couldnt be more obvious but whats important is where the board stands and we know the Ole out and Ole in camps here and how they think, well if members of the board posted here they would clearly be Ole in, they probably see someone like Conte as combustible and would rather not deal with him, they prefer Ole's yes man politically correct sort of style. So they will stick with him until they absolutely cant get away with it anymore.

If the board was posting on this site they would be like the most ardent Ole in supporters we have here. And thats all that matters, for that reason, its what it is, dont wanna talk about it or waste my time on this anymore. I know where the board stands whether I like it or dont. Think its ludicrous and will cost us but whatever I dont run the club. Case closed for me.
 
Adisa said:
That we are discussing his assistants is bizarre.
We are competing against rivals with the best tactical minds in charge and all we can do here is say he needs better coaches. What the feck is this?
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The argument for better coaches, apparently, is that they would compliment and complete Ole's skills as a great man-manager.

Is he a great man-manager? Making speeches about desire and passion only work if they are used sporadically, not when that is the only skill you bring to the job. Before the Villarreal game, he said it was not a must-win game. How not? We are third in the group even after winning yesterday, with away trips to Atalanta and Villarreal still to come. And two weeks earlier, after the defeat to Young Boys, he said talk of tactics "looks nice on paper." As a manager, Ole does not have the ruthlessness and winning mentality that he had as a player.

That the club are not pulling the trigger on him tells you that United are a business first, a football club second.
 
I thought it was good to see how the players celebrated after getting the winner yesterday - showed he hasn’t lost them yet and they’re together as a unit.

I don’t rate Ole as a coach at all, but I understand that the board at Utd is absolutely useless and it’s fairly obvious that even if they did sack him, they’d somehow manage to completely feck up the next appointment anyway, so I think the best is to hope for a trophy this season and that Ole can move on without it getting toxic or unpleasant.
 
Forevergiggs1 said:
Only way that works is if they get questioned on how shit Shaw, Maquire,, AWB, Varane, Bruno, Sancho, McT and Fred have started the season. Is it worth going there?
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Idiotic.

Ole and the coaches have done a brilliant job to get De Gea back to his best. It must hurt you to admit this, I understand.

Ole completely turned Shaw's career around too. He was done at United and was never in the England plans. Shaw played the Euros with broken ribs and clearly had a hangover from that - but that's not the narrative you want to push.

The rest are either new signings bedding in, returning from injury, or building up match fitness after no preseason.

I'd also remind you that we're 6 games into the season, having had a much better start than last season.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
I thought it was good to see how the players celebrated after getting the winner yesterday - showed he hasn’t lost them yet and they’re together as a unit.

I don’t rate Ole as a coach at all, but I understand that the board at Utd is absolutely useless and it’s fairly obvious that even if they did sack him, they’d somehow manage to completely feck up the next appointment anyway, so I think the best is to hope for a trophy this season and that Ole can move on without it getting toxic or unpleasant.
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If we win a trophy Ole's staying 100%. In fact I doubt we'd sack him if we finish top 4 with no trophy.
 
honirelandboy said:
10 headless chickens running around the pitch last night. It's actually an embarrassment to watch.

There is no shape with or without the ball. Look at Klopp, Pep, Tuchel every player knows exactly their posistions. Our players seem to get a free roam and to do whatever they feel like.

Had to rely on another moment of brilleance to equalise.

Our quality will only get you so far. We should be dominating teams and why Ole felt the need to play both Fred and Scott against Villa still bemuses me.
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I'm almost certain they have some kind of concept, but the result however is what you are describing, a bunch of headless chickens running around on the pitch. I mean how many years are we into the rebuild and the team still plays like this again and again?

I wanted Ole to succeed for the longest time, we made progress in some areas but it's just too often we seem to be completely without any plan and structure and if this is something you can't teach even the worst players I think you are in the wrong job.

I'm also just watching the Bayern game against Kiev, no doubt a shitty opponent, but the way Bayern immediately switches all gears into attack after winning the ball back and just swarms their opponent with players rushing in from any angle is just on a completely different level. Yes they have a better midfield but at least some of those patterns I would expect a good manager to implement in our team after two plus years, but there is just nothing of it, Ole and his staff seem awfully out of their depth.
 
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sglowrider said:
This.

Ole has brought calmness and progression to the club. But he clearly also a better man-manager than a coach. He needs to get better or at least one old head who can implement the tactics better. The current old head, Phelen really is more on the management side of things by all accounts.
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Sir Alex was never in charged and active on the trainings. He gave authority to his coaches to run the trainings by themselves.

We could use a Rene Mulenstein, a Carlos Queiroz, a Steve McClaren on our staff and bench. It doesn't have to be them, just giving some examples.

Pep has 2 coaches with 20 years of experience - we need that stability and experience at the club.
 
For all the people saying Fergie didn't 'coach' the players in a system: how many times did he randomly field X defender or X winger in central midfield, and still win? Fergie clearly had a system the players knew because he basically never played the same team twice, he was all about interchanging players. It was part of his genius in keeping a squad happy and involved.

Ole can barely coach his favourite XI it appears this season. His Pogba problem has become worse. Fernandes has been poor despite his huge effort. Scotty and Fred have been so bad Matic - who is still a massve liability like the last 3 years - suddenly looks good in comparison. Greenwood doesn't track back. Pogba does it even less, so both sides are exposed and we're conceding chances and goals down both.

We're an enormous mess right now, structurally. Far worse than last season, in fact.

Imo, you play Pogba deeper in midfield or you don't play him. You let wide forwards play in wide forward spots, you tell whoever is next to Pogba to never go beyond the centre circle and you coach your full backs to only go 'one at a time' so never leaving both flanks exposed. Even those simple things - that every football club does - woudl fix alot of the issues.

Then subs...my god. The point of having this amazing squad is that you can f*cking use it. Ronaldo gassed at 60 mins? Great, you've got Cavani. Fernandes being ineffectual? Great, you've got Lingard, or Sancho, or Mata to spice things up. 60 mins of having Rashford running at a full back destroyed them? Great, you can bring on one of the other 4 left wingers for the last 30. Or, wait til the 89th minute and just pray.
 
Beachryan said:
For all the people saying Fergie didn't 'coach' the players in a system: how many times did he randomly field X defender or X winger in central midfield, and still win? Fergie clearly had a system the players knew because he basically never played the same team twice, he was all about interchanging players. It was part of his genius in keeping a squad happy and involved.

Ole can barely coach his favourite XI it appears this season. His Pogba problem has become worse. Fernandes has been poor despite his huge effort. Scotty and Fred have been so bad Matic - who is still a massve liability like the last 3 years - suddenly looks good in comparison. Greenwood doesn't track back. Pogba does it even less, so both sides are exposed and we're conceding chances and goals down both.

We're an enormous mess right now, structurally. Far worse than last season, in fact.

Imo, you play Pogba deeper in midfield or you don't play him. You let wide forwards play in wide forward spots, you tell whoever is next to Pogba to never go beyond the centre circle and you coach your full backs to only go 'one at a time' so never leaving both flanks exposed. Even those simple things - that every football club does - woudl fix alot of the issues.

Then subs...my god. The point of having this amazing squad is that you can f*cking use it. Ronaldo gassed at 60 mins? Great, you've got Cavani. Fernandes being ineffectual? Great, you've got Lingard, or Sancho, or Mata to spice things up. 60 mins of having Rashford running at a full back destroyed them? Great, you can bring on one of the other 4 left wingers for the last 30. Or, wait til the 89th minute and just pray.
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Simple isn't it.Pity the manager doesn't know it.
 
Agree with person who said Fergie has a system. Every top side does. We have 11 individuals. Aside from the odd good performance we’ve been labouring to our victories pretty much since the initial great run of form when he first got here was over
 
The subject line of this thread is constantly wedged in my head now during games as it’s so accurate.
 
I'm not entirely sure what's happened to us in terms of looking so vulnerable. This wasn't the case last season, with basically the same midfield. Our goals conceded from open play was actually quite good. We were joint second with Chelsea and only behind City. You also have to factor in we didn't have a settled goalkeeper for a lot of that time, too.

Obviously, our set-pieces let us down, but that's a different issue. But this season we already look extremely vulnerable, and if it wasn't for De Gea rediscovering his form, things could be so much worse. I suppose it would lend some credence to the view that we are bedding in some new players, but I'm not sure if I buy that entirely. But last season wasn't this bad.
 
People comparing SAF to Ole are being disingenuous. SAF had already won the Scottish League and Cup when Scottish football was still very good. He then won the Cup Winners Cup beating Bayern and Real when only league Champions played in The European Cup. He was no small time Manager but a very young and upcoming manager with a very good reputation of continued success. Plus he didn't have the top players Ole has.
 
BusbyMalone said:
I'm not entirely sure what's happened to us in terms of looking so vulnerable. This wasn't the case last season, with basically the same midfield. Our goals conceded from open play was actually quite good. We were joint second with Chelsea and only behind City. You also have to factor in we didn't have a settled goalkeeper for a lot of that time, too.

Obviously, our set-pieces let us down, but that's a different issue. But this season we already look extremely vulnerable, and if it wasn't for De Gea rediscovering his form, things could be so much worse. I suppose it would lend some credence to the view that we are bedding in some new players, but I'm not sure if I buy that entirely. But last season wasn't this bad.
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We don't know how to fit Pogba, Fernandes and Ronaldo into the same team. Which is understandable - they're all wasetful and offer nothing defensively at present. So we give up huge chances, frequently.

The only way to play with 3 'luxury' players is how PSG do it: the other 7 outfield players do an absolute ton of work, and barely go past their halfway line.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
I am beginning to think that people on here think SAF was just a cheerleader and had his coaches do everything. It's disgraceful and disrespectful to SAF.

Every single assistant that worked under SAF has utterly failed when they've moved on elsewhere. It's no coincidence.
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Fergie's work at Aberdeen tends to get forgotten a lot, imo. Guy won a European trophy back when 6th, 7th placed teams didn't qualify for Europe. He beat bloody Real Madrid in the final.
 
redIndianDevil said:
No not directed at you. It bugs me that the match going fans still back Ole, it's like if you are against the manager at Manchester United, its like going against SAF.
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They back Ole on matchday because they want to win every game. Trust me, the match going fans are getting sick of Ole & our football. If we went into the last game of the season needing 3 points to avoid relegation the fans at the ground would 100% be behind the team & the manager for that game but that wouldn't mean that they're happy with a relegation scrap.
 
Beachryan said:
We don't know how to fit Pogba, Fernandes and Ronaldo into the same team. Which is understandable - they're all wasetful and offer nothing defensively at present. So we give up huge chances, frequently.

The only way to play with 3 'luxury' players is how PSG do it: the other 7 outfield players do an absolute ton of work, and barely go past their halfway line.
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Yeah, I mean Ronaldo is an issue in that sense. You obviously have to play him, so then you are kind of forcing in others around him. I could see that explaining it a little. But a lot of our games last season we had McFred as ourr midfield and it wasn't this bad. I know Cavani does work more than Ronaldo, but not sure if it would completely explain our issues. I guess Rashford did play in the left a lot last season didn't he, as opposed to Pogba. And Rashford probably does trackback more...

I don't know. We just look so fragile when the opposition has the ball.
 
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