Westminster Politics

11101 said:
Democracy doesn't work because it produces a result you don't agree with. Yeah, ok :lol:

It's modern politics isn't it. Arrogant prats telling everyone they're idiots for holding a different opinion to them. Everyone's an expert in 2019, despite people who know considerably more about politics than you or I voting for him by a massive margin.
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Knowing a lot about politics doesn't really mean much, because it all still boils down to your own ideological views. If I decided to devote my life to learning about politics and championing National Socialism, does that mean my view holds more weight than the average person in the street who doesn't know a great deal but believes that, you know, Nazism is not the most desirable choice? I'm not an expert in politics yet my ideological views are pretty much fixed. A lot of reading is going to have an influence but it's not going to alter them substantially at this point in my life. Hence, it's strange to attach credence to people backing Johnson on the basis that they supposedly know a good amount about politics.
 
11101 said:
reducing crime
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Johnson said that as mayor from 2008 to 2016 he “cut the murder rate by 50%”, that knife crime went down, and he credited a rise in police stop-and-search operations with helping reduce crime.

The reality is more mixed. The murder rate fell significantly, if not by 50% – from 155 in 2008 to a low of 94 in 2014. It did then start to rise again under Johnson, reaching 109 by 2016. The statistics for total knife offences varied over the eight years, but were only marginally lower at the end – 9,937 in total for 2008-9, against 9,738 for 2015-16.


The claim about stop-and-search curbing crime has also been contradicted. A 2016 Home Office-commissioned report on Operation Blunt 2, a Met police increase in stop-and-search that began in 2008, concluded it brought “no discernible crime-reducing effects”.


https://www.theguardian.com/politic...on-as-successful-as-london-mayor-as-he-claims
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11101 said:
the transport system is night and day from what it was when he took over.
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So is he wrong to claim that the Underground is more efficient and that a “cycling revolution” is taking place?


Fair play, there has been progress. Tube upgrades have continued and Crossrail is on its way. Johnson has introduced new cycling infrastructure and a hire scheme. But how much praise does he deserve? Transport for London is formally under mayoral control, but has long enjoyed an autonomous relationship with central government. Though some insist that credit for “Boris bikes” belongs to Ken Livingstone, it was Johnson who brought the project to life. However, his belief that it would all be paid for by sponsorship proved false. And it is too early to say if his “cycle superhighways” and other provisions will really revolutionise cycling in London.


The bus is the London public transport workhorse. What has he done for that?

He’s been complacent. And his bespoke “Boris bus”, AKA the New Routemaster, will soon have no open rear platform, no conductors and be no cleaner than off-the-peg green vehicles – the very features he claimed would make it special.


Has he “smoothed traffic flow” on London’s streets as promised?

No. Last summer London was found to be the most congested city in Europe. Population growth and large construction projects contribute to this, but Johnson’s early decision to halve London’s congestion charge zonedemonstrated his eagerness to keep motorists sweet. Cracking the congestion problem would have taken far bolder road space management measures. No chance.


Could he have done more to improve London’s dire air quality?

Yes. Some progress has been made, albeit under pressure from the EU. But critics say he has dragged his feet in order to avoid penalising drivers of dirty vehicles. His plans for an ultra-low emission zone in central London have been criticised as too little, too late.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/30/has-boris-johnson-been-a-good-mayor-of-london
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11101 said:
He was admittedly helped by Livingstone before him making it harder and more expensive to live in central London than ever before.
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Boris Johnson made things even worse as Mayor. He stopped building new social housing altogether, reducing the number of social homes he funded from 1,687 in 2012 to just 336 in his final year in office. Shamefully, he left zero social homes funded for the year that Sadiq Khan came into office.


In fact, Johnson prioritised building multi-million pound penthouses that only the very wealthiest could afford and left ordinary Londoners as an afterthought. Only 13 per cent of homes given permission in his final year in office were affordable and rough sleeping doubled on his watch.


https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...may-sadiq-khan-landlords-prices-a8024621.html
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11101 said:
Charisma.
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Boris-Johnson.jpg
 
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So with all these new conservative members being former Ukipers, what's the difference between the future tory PM and a brexit party PM? Isn't it effectively the same thing now?

Also, how long does one need to be member to have a vote in this upcoming election? Sensible Brits might consider joining them for this upcoming "vote". It's the only thing they can now (aside from rioting, which at this point also makes sense).
 
Abizzz said:
So with all these new conservative members being former Ukipers, what's the difference between the future tory PM and a brexit party PM? Isn't it effectively the same thing now?

Also, how long does one need to be member to have a vote in this upcoming election? Sensible Brits might consider joining them for this upcoming "vote". It's the only thing they can now (aside from rioting, which at this point also makes sense).
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had to be a member fr 3 months before the leadership election was called i believe
 
Sweet Square said:
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Hard as it is to read through that, i wouldn't expect The Guardian to paint any Conservative in a positive light. Still, looks like they begrudgingly agree that he reduced crime and improved transport. The single biggest thing was the unification of all London's rail systems and expansion of the network which they completely omit.

Not sure what your last link is referring to, but under Livingstone prices went through the roof with the introduction of the congestion charge and public services were continually on strike. He also had a funny habit of keeping things in the family when it came to appointments and funding.
 
BobbyManc said:
Knowing a lot about politics doesn't really mean much, because it all still boils down to your own ideological views. If I decided to devote my life to learning about politics and championing National Socialism, does that mean my view holds more weight than the average person in the street who doesn't know a great deal but believes that, you know, Nazism is not the most desirable choice? I'm not an expert in politics yet my ideological views are pretty much fixed. A lot of reading is going to have an influence but it's not going to alter them substantially at this point in my life. Hence, it's strange to attach credence to people backing Johnson on the basis that they supposedly know a good amount about politics.
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True, but it doesn't really count for much in this current situation. All the candidates for leadership hold fairly similar views all things considered. The vote is for which of them do people think is the most capable leader and I'd guess the people who know them and work with them have a better understanding of that than any of us on here.
 
11101 said:
True, but it doesn't really count for much in this current situation. All the candidates for leadership hold fairly similar views all things considered. The vote is for which of them do people think is the most capable leader and I'd guess the people who know them and work with them have a better understanding of that than any of us on here.
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I dunno - I suspect a lot of MP's are voting for who they think is most likley to win an election (a mix of bringing back votes from UKIP and winning some of the floating vote) - in that respect boris is probably brexity enough and has the name recognition (plus seems to poll well against corbyn in match ups)... im not sure that many of them are voting on his capability
 
11101 said:
True, but it doesn't really count for much in this current situation. All the candidates for leadership hold fairly similar views all things considered. The vote is for which of them do people think is the most capable leader and I'd guess the people who know them and work with them have a better understanding of that than any of us on here.
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Coming from the same bunch who decided Theresa May was the most capable leader in 2016, I don't know why you're so keen to attach any faith to their decision this time round. Theresa May had a lot of faults, and her utter ineptitude as a leader was probably her greatest one.
 
11101 said:
Hard as it is to read through that, i wouldn't expect The Guardian to paint any Conservative in a positive light.
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Though some insist that credit for “Boris bikes” belongs to Ken Livingstone, it was Johnson who brought the project to life. However, his belief that it would all be paid for by sponsorship proved false. And it is too early to say if his “cycle superhighways” and other provisions will really revolutionise cycling in London.
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11101 said:
Still, looks like they begrudgingly agree that he reduced crime and improved transport.
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I'm not going to copy what I've already posted but a very simply version -

Crime
It starting to go up again while Boris was in charge, stop and search was useless, knife crime barely moved.

Transport
Boris buses where shite, Boris did nothing to stop London becoming the most congested city in Europe and the only progress made to clear the air was due to the EU.

11101 said:
Not sure what your last link is referring to, but under Livingstone prices went through the roof with the introduction of the congestion charge and public services were continually on strike. He also had a funny habit of keeping things in the family when it came to appointments and funding.
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Boris stopped building social housing thus making London a more unaffordable place for people to live.

Look if you like Boris because of the charisma he brings then ok whatever but it's going to get called out for being stupid by a lot of people.
 
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Sweet Square said:
I'm not going to copy what I've already posted but a very simply version -

Crime
It starting to go up again while Boris was in charge, stop and search was useless, knife crime barely moved.

Transport
Boris buses where shite, Boris did nothing to stop London becoming the most congested city in Europe and the only progress made to clear the air was due to the EU.


Boris stopped building social housing thus making London a more unaffordable place for people to live.

Look if you like Boris because of the charisma he brings then ok whatever but it's going to get called out for being stupid by a lot of people.
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You believe what you read about him in the notoriously left wing Guardian newspaper :wenger:

Crime went down. It may have started to rise again at the end of his time, but there was still less when he left than when he started. Facts are facts.

Transport was vastly improved. I'm sorry but you just have no idea if you argue this. London has been the most congested city in Europe for years, long before Boris came along. Congestion is bad and probably always will be, but the improvement in rail services is massive and has made journeys simple that used to literally take hours, if you could get there at all. His buses are fine too, and much better than the articulated buses Livingstone bought that couldn't get round corners.

He also still built more cheap housing than Livingstone did.

There's a reason he left with such a high approval rating. He did a good job in London.
 
11101 said:
You believe what you read about him in the notoriously left wing Guardian newspaper :wenger:
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Are you actively trying to be stupid ? In the guardian article I quoted they gave Boris credit for bringing the bike project to life.

11101 said:
Crime went down. It may have started to rise again at the end of his time, but there was still less when he left than when he started. Facts are facts.
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The murder rate went down and then starting to rise back up again(Hardly great long term planning), knife crime barely moved and his stop and seach policy failed.

11101 said:
Transport was vastly improved. I'm sorry but you just have no idea if you argue this. London has been the most congested city in Europe for years, long before Boris came along. Congestion is bad and probably always will be.
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Johnson’s early decision to halve London’s congestion charge zone demonstrated his eagerness to keep motorists sweet.
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No one is saying Boris should have completely fixed the congestion problem just that he did nothing to help.

11101 said:
His buses are fine too, and much better than the articulated buses Livingstone bought that couldn't get round corners.
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Are you reading anything I've posted ?
And his bespoke “Boris bus”, AKA the New Routemaster, will soon have no open rear platform, no conductors and be no cleaner than off-the-peg green vehicles – the very features he claimed would make it special.
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11101 said:
He also still built more cheap housing than Livingstone did.
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Did Livingstone steal a girl you liked ? Date your mom ?

Anyway Boris ''cheap housing'' record.

His targets were to small
A source at the mayor’s office confirmed a target of around 25% was being considered, which is well below the 35% to 50% targets for affordable homes adopted by London boroughs. However, the mayor’s office hopes councils will back the proposal as affordable housing contributions on major schemes consistently fall well short of their own stated targets - and are often below 25%.

https://www.propertyweek.com/news/b...xed-affordable-housing-target/5076035.article
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And the outcomes -

Boris Johnson made things even worse as Mayor. He stopped building new social housing altogether, reducing the number of social homes he funded from 1,687 in 2012 to just 336 in his final year in office. Shamefully, he left zero social homes funded for the year that Sadiq Khan came into office.

In fact, Johnson prioritised building multi-million pound penthouses that only the very wealthiest could afford and left ordinary Londoners as an afterthought. Only 13 per cent of homes given permission in his final year in office were affordable and rough sleeping doubled on his watch.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...may-sadiq-khan-landlords-prices-a8024621.html
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It’s telling that in a 1,000 word article Johnson barely mentions his own track record on the issue. What he lacks in self-awareness he certainly makes up for in chutzpah, but his words still betrayed his enduring indifference to his own failures to address London’s housing crisis during his City Hall tenure. His column’s headline advocated “kicking the developers”, but in reality, as Mayor, Johnson largely allowed them to get their own way.

Probably the most egregious example of this was in 2014 when he backed Royal Mail’s proposals for the Mount Pleasant sorting office site, taking over the planning decision before Camden and Islington Councils had even had a chance to consider the application. A mere 24% of the housing approved by Johnson was “affordable”. Royal Mail went on to sell the site at a 565% mark up to developer Taylor Wimpey for £193 million.

Johnson’s column favourably referenced the Battersea Power Station redevelopment, approved by him with just 12% affordable housing, which Wandsworth Council subsequently allowed the developer to reduce to 9%. In fact, Johnson’s record on affordable housing was so poor that in his last year in office he oversaw planning permissions that granted only 13% affordable homes.

https://www.onlondon.co.uk/tom-copl...ousing-contradict-his-record-as-london-mayor/
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And I've yet to mention the failed projects such as the garden bridge which wasted £53 million.
 
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Not only is Boris not responsible for Boris bikes, but the only cycling related thing he is responsible for (the super highways) were initially a fecking disaster, drawn up blindly and lazily on a map with no ground level knowledge of the actual best routes, and actively got people killed because of it...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24539584

People had to protest to get them fixed. (Mayoral bike history from 4:20 onwards..)



He also closed a shit load of fire stations in my area. But yeah, cool, charisma and shit. That’s more important than competence. I like politic good.
 
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Sweet Square said:
Are you actively trying to be stupid ? In the guardian article I quoted they gave Boris credit for bringing the bike project to life.

The murder rate went down and then starting to rise back up again(Hardly great long term planning), knife crime barely moved and his stop and seach policy failed.

No one is saying Boris should have completely fixed the congestion problem just that he did nothing to help.

Are you reading anything I've posted ?

Did Livingstone steal a girl you liked ? Date your mom ?

Anyway Boris ''cheap housing'' record.

His targets were to small

And I've yet to mention the failed projects such as the garden bridge which wasted £53 million.
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You can post all the news articles and quotes you want, the fact remains most Londoners rated the job he did as mayor. Especially considering what went before him. Unless you lived there at the time and can form your own opinions, arguing that point by regurgitating other people's views makes you look childish.
 
11101 said:
Some of Boris's better acts were supporting the city and getting the economy back on track, reducing crime, and the transport system is night and day from what it was when he took over. He was admittedly helped by Livingstone before him making it harder and more expensive to live in central London than ever before.




Charisma. Anybody in power has to be competent but that's no use on its own.

Don't let Blair's war record and latter years distract from the breath of fresh air he was in 1997.
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You over rate Johnson's London period and ignore his time in government where he was an incompetent laughing stock.

Electing a liar and a cheat to restore trust in politics is an ask. Look at the US.
 
11101 said:
I'm in the Boris camp. Forget his policies which will be little different to anything the others come up with, after years of the likes of Brown, Cameron, Miliband and May more than anything we need someone with some character. In British history the greatest leaders have been the ones with the force of personality to get things done, Churchill, Thatcher, George, Attlee and so on. Boris might act the buffoon but he'll get people talking about politics again instead of the current malaise and negativity whenever the topic comes up. Corbyn would have been a step in the right direction if he wasn't completely unelectable and surrounded by incompetents.
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You and I have a different sense of what character means. The current malaise isn't about a lack of showbiz it's about the impact of policy decisions. Johnson's supposed suitability is a sign of how fecked up things are for the Tories, much like Corbyn is for Labour. He isn't a leader at all, he is just another opportunist but with better PR and a gift for spotting a bandwagon.

I think Johnson will feck the Tory party for a generation, so at least he has that going for him.
 
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11101 said:
You can post all the news articles and quotes you want, the fact remains most Londoners rated the job he did as mayor. Especially considering what went before him. Unless you lived there at the time and can form your own opinions, arguing that point by regurgitating other people's views makes you look childish.
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Translation: don't try and use facts to argue against me because I prefer to go with my gut feeling.
 
Mockney said:
Not only is Boris not responsible for Boris bikes, but the only cycling related thing he is responsible for (the super highways) were initially a fecking disaster, drawn up blindly and lazily on a map with no ground level knowledge of the actual best routes, and actively got people killed because of it...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24539584

People had to protest to get them fixed. (Mayoral bike history from 4:20 onwards..)



He also closed a shit load of fire stations in my area. But yeah, cool, charisma and shit. That’s more important than competence. I like politic good.
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Nor can you really credit him with the fall in crime either - crime was falling in all regions of the UK during that time, London just reflected the national trend.
 
Also wasn't Boris mayor when the whole of London rioted? Remember that little event?
 
11101 said:
You can post all the news articles and quotes you want, the fact remains most Londoners rated the job he did as mayor. Especially considering what went before him. Unless you lived there at the time and can form your own opinions, arguing that point by regurgitating other people's views makes you look childish.
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So in your view it's impossible for non americans to say if Donald Trump is doing a good or bad job ? I'll be honest I've never been to Saudi Araba and all I've read on old Al Saud is through those awful liberal newspapers, so I guess it's impossible for me to have a opinion on the country and it's king, right ?
Are modern historians just confusing to you ? I thought Mary Beard knew quite a lot about the romans, turns out she was born in 1955!

If there is one common link conservatives have no matter where in the world, it's their non ability to think outside themselves, if it doesn't happen to them personally it has never happened. There isn't a aids crisis as no one I know has aids(Reagan literally thought this until his friend got the disease), the UN report on UK poverty is false as ''that's not what we see in this country," and then of course Boris buses where great as I never saw the ones without air conditioning or the ones where the windows didn't open.

Btw you can actually do better than the shite reactionary politics you have.
 
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Sweet Square said:
He was talking about Boris and not the the current mayor.
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Ahhh…! a ray of light shines in the darkness, thank you!

Then I suppose the answer to @Adisa 's original question "who elected this charlatan"...was the London electorate? I suppose the assumption must be that the statement "London has the densest population in the country" must be correct? ;)
 
nickm said:
Also wasn't Boris mayor when the whole of London rioted? Remember that little event?
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Got to admit, I’ve lived in London my entire life bar Uni and that was the only time I’ve ever been actually scared whilst living here. Boris also thought the same as he decided to just remain in Canada.
 
Mr Pigeon said:
Translation: don't try and use facts to argue against me because I prefer to go with my gut feeling.
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Well the facts mostly support him having done a good job in London. Even The Guardian admit so through grated teeth.
 
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