What do we still need? Aka The never ending story

Catalandevil said:
Rangnick was a horrible manager but most of the things he said were right. For example, we needed a major overhaul and we needed powerfull CMs. We are still paying the price for the incompentence of our previous executives. If we really want to be competitive and narrow the gap with City and Arsenal, we need another CM. If not, if the Mount experiement goes wrong, season could be over by Christmas.
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Everything he said was right he was just such a disaster as manger it was completely undermined and he was effectively calling our people who didn’t want to be held accountable.

He was even identifying cheaper players who would have improve us rather than over spending on players who aren’t good enough.

We still need a RB, a RW, two midfielders and a striker. But by this point it doesn’t really matter we always need 4-5 players.
 
Whatever recruitment committee we have, it's clearly failing as we ended up prioritizing signing Mount for a high fee.

I get the transfer on Antony, as we had a new manager in, and we wanted to appease him. Mount is just a weird transfer and more so when I read how great we were for negotiating the transfer 10 millions down from Chelsea's ridiculous asking price.
 
What we need is to raise the technical and athletic level of the team. And the reason I say athletic level is because we aren't the best team at defending transitions. So players who have the athletic and physical capabilities will help us control or contain the opposition without the ball. It's why I was saying that someone like Amadou Onana would be a good option to have because he has the ability to win his duels in large spaces and also adds something on the ball via his ability to carry the ball through midfield. The Tottenham midfield had players who can carry and dribble the ball well, whilst also being quick and tenacious out of possession to thwart transitions.

We also lack a ball carrier with the class and guile in more advanced central areas of the pitch. Mount isn't too bad in that regard but Bruno isn't very good at at all at making space for himself in confined spaces. Hopefully Mainoo will help us in that regard in the mid to long-term.

And Rangnick didn't say anything that hasn't already been said. At Leipzig he constructed a deeper midfield two of players who were high energy runners like Laimer and Haidara. He also had the benefit of being backed by a multi billionaire who was one of the richest men in Europe. So it wasn't as difficult to get Leipzig into the Bindesliga when you have that sort of backing. And the same applies at Hoffenheim where their owner (Dietmar Hopp) put in almost half a billion of his own money into a village club like Hoffenheim which was always going to make a difference in getting them up into the top flight. Both RBL Leipzig and Hoffenheim were/are financially doped up and hence are disliked by German football fans from what I've read.

I don't know if it's possible under the Glazers but if we could sign both Amrabat and Amadou Onana I think it would make a difference to how we perform going forward in the current season. Kobbie Mainoo will hopefully be integrated into the team but I'd also bring Hannibal into the fold because he provides qualities which we lack like playing on the half turn and carrying/dribbling the ball through midfield.
 
johnnyteutonic said:
Agree with everything you've said.
There was this guy called Ralf Rangnick who has a proven track record of building clubs, identifying top talent and has access to an extensive network across much of Europe and South America.
But we all know what happened...

The moment the club announced he would be leaving, I feared that our recruitment woes would continue so I'm not really surprised we find ourselves in the same situation once again.
That to me was a fork in the road moment for this club.
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We hired a club builder in Rangnick to be a coach, and we hired a coach in ETH to be a club builder. Of course it was always going to end in tears.
 
TheRedHearted said:
What about their scouting department specifically?
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Off the top of my head, they took Paul Winstanley who was their head of recruitment and was in charge of identifying talent so was very much involved in their scouting department.
But yeah I'm sure there are plenty of others we could poach, assuming our club ever displayed any real ambition.
 
johnnyteutonic said:
Off the top of my head, they took Paul Winstanley who was their head of recruitment and was in charge of identifying talent so was very much involved in their scouting department.
But yeah I'm sure there are plenty of others we could poach, assuming our club ever displayed any real ambition.
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We’ve got ambition in all the wrong places
 
We need to be looking for potential replacements for the whole front four. All of them need to be challenged for positions. The ones that perform then stay in the starting 11. The ones that don't, get pushed to the bench or out of the squad. Too many mediocre players.
 
Well apart from what we have already done which I dont agree with...giving Dalot a new contract, making Fernandes captain, signing Mount, salvaging this window:

Maguire, Bailly, , Williams, VDB, McTominay, Martial, Shoetire all out. I would like Henderson out too but it seems too late and we are talking a number two til January now so maybe not.

In: CB and CM and dependant on the Greenwood outcome, a second striker

CM: I still think we need a nmber 8, Mount wasnt that signing for me. He can compete with Fernandes for that position. Aai he shouldnt have been captain, the whinging, wastefulness and inconsistency....he shouldnt be guaranteed a startign spot. I personally think Mainoo offers back up to Casemeiro as well as the number 8 competition and Hannibal offers a godo squad option for number 8 too....but there is no starter there for me nliek Casemeiro position where he has been isolated. But I am not mad though appreciate the signing of Amrabat I think he is a depper player than we need to sign to play alongside Casemeiro.

Not seen much of him last season but did liek him a couple fo years ago, we should go for Kephren Thuram I feel. Offers physicality, strength, power, box to box, decent technique going forward and much more solid towards the defensive side of the role than recent options....Casemeiro/Mainoo - Thuram/Hannibal - Fernandes/Mount

CB - We simply need a quality centre back, prefer a younger one to Pavard, not seen much of the names bandied about, I am (and in a minority it seems) a fan of Bella Kotchap

CF - I have seen little of Hoijlund but have a good feeling about him, but we simply ned more than one striker as an option. Rashford isnt a striker, Martial should be gone by any means iin my opinion. If Greenwood doesnt come back, seen little but there do seem to be decent value talented young strikers about such as Leonardo and Oban.

I think we are looking at a spend of £90-120m and looking at the West Ham bids for two of the outward bound players, we can still raise most of that from sales:

Onana - Henderson
Bissaka - Dalot
Varane - Kotchap
Martinez - Lindelof
Shaw - Malacia
Casemeiro - Mainoo
Thuram - Hannibal/Eriksen
Fernandes - Mount
Rashford - Garnacho
Antony - Sancho
Hoijlund - Oban/Greenwood

Heaton - Amad - Pellestri

I think that makes us good challenging for the top four, which currently not just a knee jerk reaction but the wa other sides have improved....I think we fall short of, which is in fact regression
 
People go on about midfield and very rightly so, but our attack is equally shite. We need to hope Hojlund is amazing and with Rashford being more of a goalscorer than a creator, we need a proper winger or creator on the right side to feed them. Closest we have to that is probably Pellistri if we go the winger route, or try Sancho or Mount there for a link-up style creator. Antony is offering nothing apart from defensive workrate and was a disaster of a signing by ETH.

Sign Amrabat and shift Mount to RW or drop him and play Pellistri. Which is a pretty sad place to be after spunking over 150 million on RW in recent seasons but ho hum.
 
Adnan said:
What we need is to raise the technical and athletic level of the team. And the reason I say athletic level is because we aren't the best team at defending transitions. So players who have the athletic and physical capabilities will help us control or contain the opposition without the ball. It's why I was saying that someone like Amadou Onana would be a good option to have because he has the ability to win his duels in large spaces and also adds something on the ball via his ability to carry the ball through midfield. The Tottenham midfield had players who can carry and dribble the ball well, whilst also being quick and tenacious out of possession to thwart transitions.

We also lack a ball carrier with the class and guile in more advanced central areas of the pitch. Mount isn't too bad in that regard but Bruno isn't very good at at all at making space for himself in confined spaces. Hopefully Mainoo will help us in that regard in the mid to long-term.

And Rangnick didn't say anything that hasn't already been said. At Leipzig he constructed a deeper midfield two of players who were high energy runners like Laimer and Haidara. He also had the benefit of being backed by a multi billionaire who was one of the richest men in Europe. So it wasn't as difficult to get Leipzig into the Bindesliga when you have that sort of backing. And the same applies at Hoffenheim where their owner (Dietmar Hopp) put in almost half a billion of his own money into a village club like Hoffenheim which was always going to make a difference in getting them up into the top flight. Both RBL Leipzig and Hoffenheim were/are financially doped up and hence are disliked by German football fans from what I've read.

I don't know if it's possible under the Glazers but if we could sign both Amrabat and Amadou Onana I think it would make a difference to how we perform going forward in the current season. Kobbie Mainoo will hopefully be integrated into the team but I'd also bring Hannibal into the fold because he provides qualities which we lack like playing on the half turn and carrying/dribbling the ball through midfield.
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All of those things you said about Rangnick may well be true, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't good at identifying top talent, especially at cheap prices.

I'm sure you know the names but for the benefit of anyone who doesn't remember - Alvarez, Enzo Fernandez, Gvardiol, Luis Diaz, Laimer, Nkunku, Vlahovic and Haaland (lol).
Out of those names mentioned, obviously many of them are players that he was familiar with through his RB connections, but others were good choices from the Primeira Liga and South America. What's also interesting about each of those players is that every single one of them bar Vlahovic has had their stock rise massively since he made those recommendations.
I am also not suggesting that each of them would have been appropriate players for our team, but I think Enzo and Alvarez in particular would have done wonders for our team.
When I see all the names we have been linked with under ETH (and for all of our other managers post-SAF), they are always obvious names that are well-established players, or players that the manager has worked extensively with before.
At least Rangnick showed some vision and left-field thinking.
 
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Quite simply - a miracle. I don't know what it is we do in training, what we do well anymore. We always seem to have one good season under a new manager and usually into the second season we either give up or run out of ideas. We're seeing history repeat itself again. It's not recruitment, though we've neglected certain positions and areas, it's a lack of technical coaching and structuring a team to play together. We always look a side of individuals hoping for individual moments to create. Until we see some progress from a coaching POV, I wouldn't waste more money. If we don't see improvement in team play by November, it's time to look at alternatives, whether that's new coaching staff or the manager, I don't know, but as a collective, we aren't progressing enough.
 
johnnyteutonic said:
All of those things you said about Rangnick may well be true, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't good at identifying top talent, especially at cheap prices.

I'm sure you know the names but for the benefit of anyone who doesn't remember - Alvarez, Enzo Fernandez, Gvardiol, Luis Diaz, Laimer, Nkunku, Vlahovic and Haaland (lol).
Out of those names mentioned, obviously many of them are players that he was familiar with through his RB connections, but others were good choices from the Primeira Liga and South America. What's also interesting about each of those players is that every single one of them bar Vlahovic has had their stock rice massively since he made those recommendations.
I am also not suggesting that each of them would have been appropriate players for our team, but I think Enzo and Alvarez in particular would have done wonders for our team.
When I see all the names we have been linked with under ETH (and for all of our other managers post-SAF), they are always obvious names that are well-established players, or players that the manager has worked extensively with before.
At least Rangnick showed some vision and left-field thinking.
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The first two are the ones which sting and Diaz certainly has ability too. Unfortunately our shot at Haaland ended when we monumentally fecked up the time difference when he was at Molde. Just thinking about how amateur that was from a professional club is unacceptable
 
johnnyteutonic said:
All of those things you said about Rangnick may well be true, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't good at identifying top talent, especially at cheap prices.

I'm sure you know the names but for the benefit of anyone who doesn't remember - Alvarez, Enzo Fernandez, Gvardiol, Luis Diaz, Laimer, Nkunku, Vlahovic and Haaland (lol).
Out of those names mentioned, obviously many of them are players that he was familiar with through his RB connections, but others were good choices from the Primeira Liga and South America. What's also interesting about each of those players is that every single one of them bar Vlahovic has had their stock rice massively since he made those recommendations.
I am also not suggesting that each of them would have been appropriate players for our team, but I think Enzo and Alvarez in particular would have done wonders for our team.
When I see all the names we have been linked with under ETH (and for all of our other managers post-SAF), they are always obvious names that are well-established players, or players that the manager has worked extensively with before.
At least Rangnick showed some vision and left-field thinking.
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First of all let's get something straight, Rangnick didn't identify talent but rather his role as the DoF was to put people in charge of a recruitment department to identify talent. For example, he had Christian Mockel as the head scout at Hoffenheim whose job it was to structure the recruitment at the club. And the same applied at RB Leipzig where the head of scouting was in charge of recruitment. Rangnick's role as the DoF was to oversee all the football departments and not just the recruitment department.

So his job was to empower the heads of each particular football department because those heads of department were the ones who directed their department. And hence the recruitment at his clubs was run by the heads of scouting and not Rangnick. You need to understand the difference between the DoF and the heads of recruitment, because they're two different roles. And the mainstream media doesn't help matters by giving all credit to the DoF. And at the clubs Rangnick was DoF, the strategy was to sign either promising youth players or sign young 18 to 21 year olds with a view to selling them on for profit. That strategy will make monetary profit in the long-term but will rarely win you trophies against teams who want to win now. You can't compare a stepping stone club like RB Leipzig or Hoffenheim with Man Utd. Hence what needs to be understood is the actual football structure and how long that structure has been in operation and not just focus on only the DoF.

And the players Rangnick asked the club to sign are listed below which he specifically mentioned in a interview with Christian Falk. And he didn't mention Enzo Fernandez or Alvarez in the interview with Christian Falk. Both of those players along with Caicedo were recommended to the club by their head of South American scouting Jose Mayorga. Mayorga has since been promoted and is now in a head of recruitment role.



Vlahovic wasn't even a option because Romano pretty quickly debunked that as the tweet below indicates. But the rest of the players are players who most fans knew about. And you don't need Rangnick to tell you to sign the likes of Haaland and the rest because everyone knew about Haaland. And Gvardiol I first watched play in the Uefa Youth League for Dinamo Zagreb and would later mention him as a big prospect that I'd like us to sign. I could've recommend the same players. I wouldn't have wanted us to sign Morata though.





It's important to understand the difference between the head of recruitment and the DoF. People like Winstanley who joined Chelsea from Brighton was Brighton's head of recruitment and not their DoF. And you have to give a new structure time to bed-in because what we're up against in the EPL are teams who are spending a ridiculous amount of money that we just can't compete with, with our current owners. But having said that, I think we'll sign at least one, maybe two players before the window shuts

After Chelsea spent a ridiculous amount last season, the below is what they've done in the current window thus far.

 
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We need to get rid of the Glazers because they can't invest after a very point. And we need to take recruitment out of eth hands because of his shit purchases. Do we even have a dof yet?. Why was eth allowed to discard RR, it was never a smart decision to make. This is another good opportunity fecked right up by the shitshow at the top.
 
We need at least two players before the window closes in my opinion.

Central midfielder: Casemiro is playing as a one man midfield at the moment and it's not working. We need to bring someone to play alongside him

Striker: Rashford is not a striker, Martial can't stay fit. Even if Hojlund is a big hit we still need to have a reliable second option to play up front.
 
Red Rash said:
We need at least two players before the window closes in my opinion.

Central midfielder: Casemiro is playing as a one man midfield at the moment and it's not working. We need to bring someone to play alongside him

Striker: Rashford is not a striker, Martial can't stay fit. Even if Hojlund is a big hit we still need to have a reliable second option to play up front.
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These were our top two priorities in May. It is mad that we're here in late August with neither problem addressed.
 
Infra-red said:
These were our top two priorities in May. It is mad that we're here in late August with neither problem addressed.
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I would say our priorities in the summer were GK, CF then CM.

We solved the goalkeeper issue, we half solve CF issue but it's true CM isn't solved yet. Especially since we let Fred go and probably Donny will leave. No reason we shouldn't have already bought in Amrabat in my opinion.
 
You can see why we were interested in Declan Rice and Harry Kane. Impossible transfers this summer, but would have made a big difference to the starting XI.
 
Red Rash said:
We need at least two players before the window closes in my opinion.

Central midfielder: Casemiro is playing as a one man midfield at the moment and it's not working. We need to bring someone to play alongside him

Striker: Rashford is not a striker, Martial can't stay fit. Even if Hojlund is a big hit we still need to have a reliable second option to play up front.
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ETH spent his CM budget on Mount. If it does not work then it is a sackable offence. MacAllister was available for a lower fee.
 
JWP was ideal, cheap, good engine, fantastic set piece delivery, 27, likelihood be raises his game in bigger surroundings.

Perhaps Douglas Luiz as well.

People might think these are underwhelming players but we need bodies who are cheap, energetic players.

I could say Valverde, Gavi, Lavia but we can't afford them and they don't want to join us.
 
Cathy Ferguson said:
ETH spent his CM budget on Mount. If it does not work then it is a sackable offence. MacAllister was available for a lower fee.
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I think a lot of fans wanted Fred, Donny and McT moved on this summer. Fred has already gone and Donny looks set to leave. We have also put a price tag on McT which suggests we are open to selling and he didn't even get a minute yesterday.

I don't want to absolve Ten Hag of any blame but the reality is the club has been run so poorly for such a long time that we are a huge victim of buying overpriced players on huge contracts that are becoming difficult to move on.

In an ideal world I think Ten Hag would let Henderson, Maguire, McTominay, Donny, Martial all go but we need to bring in replacements. If we can't do that we are only weakening our squad further.
 
Red Rash said:
I think a lot of fans wanted Fred, Donny and McT moved on this summer. Fred has already gone and Donny looks set to leave. We have also put a price tag on McT which suggests we are open to selling and he didn't even get a minute yesterday.

I don't want to absolve Ten Hag of any blame but the reality is the club has been run so poorly for such a long time that we are a huge victim of buying overpriced players on huge contracts that are becoming difficult to move on.

In an ideal world I think Ten Hag would let Henderson, Maguire, McTominay, Donny, Martial all go but we need to bring in replacements. If we can't do that we are only weakening our squad further.
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Buying Mount and Antony is a much bigger problem than not selling McTominay. If Höjlund does not work out we are in a lot of trouble.
 
Cathy Ferguson said:
Buying Mount and Antony is a much bigger problem than not selling McTominay. If Höjlund does not work out we are in a lot of trouble.
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I don't think buying Mount is a huge problem if we also bought in a CM. I mean, I'm not 100 percent convinced Mount will work out but it's been 2 games, absolutely ridiculous to judge him this early.

Antony I agree hasn't been brilliant so far but it was also the inept board that meant we spent 80+ million rather than 50 million earlier in the summer.

My point is if we could sell McTominay and Donny and replace them with Amrabat and maybe one other player the squad would be much better. The problems is we can't sell players for various reasons caused by how our club has been run over previous years.
 
Red Rash said:
I don't think buying Mount is a huge problem if we also bought in a CM. I mean, I'm not 100 percent convinced Mount will work out but it's been 2 games, absolutely ridiculous to judge him this early.

Antony I agree hasn't been brilliant so far but it was also the inept board that meant we spent 80+ million rather than 50 million earlier in the summer.

My point is if we could sell McTominay and Donny and replace them with Amrabat and maybe one other player the squad would be much better. The problems is we can't sell players for various reasons caused by how our club has been run over previous years.
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Spending your CM budget on Mount is a huge problem since Mount is not a CM.

Donny will only generate token amounts. Agree that it is impossible to move players such as Sancho, Martial, Antony and Maguire due to crazy wages and fees paid for mediocre players.
 
Yesterday was a prime example of how we need a striker and still haven't sorted out our central midfield. We signed Mount who prefers playing closer to the #10 position. Then we sold Fred, the only midfielder we have with a run-all-day engine.
Caicedo would have been my ideal signing but I know money restraints probably wouldn't have made it possible.
 
Red Rash said:
We need at least two players before the window closes in my opinion.

Central midfielder: Casemiro is playing as a one man midfield at the moment and it's not working. We need to bring someone to play alongside him

Striker: Rashford is not a striker, Martial can't stay fit. Even if Hojlund is a big hit we still need to have a reliable second option to play up front.
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I'd take just a versatile forward. Doesn't even need to be a true striker.
 
Footyislife said:
We've only ever needed 1 thing. A highly skilled DOF. It may sound too obvious but its a testament to how much Glazers just don't give a "f**k" about the club.

ETH is a decent coach but not skilled at building teams. Overmars did that at Ajax. He has done well recruiting former players. But lets take a laundry list at errors recently.

1. Antony was a terrible buy. You could have gotten 2 good EPL level players for his price. ETH made a terrible biased decision.

2. Didn't force a Maguire sell. Why not, publicize he is done, put him in the reserves.

3. Paying £54M for a player Chelsea was not willing to invest in and having 1 year left on the deal. Maybe it's good long term but still a bad short term decision.

4. Paying £64M plus 8M add-ons for an unproven young striker who's hurt? Maybe long term he develops, but that's a really bad bet to pay that much when you could fork out £25M and get an elite level player. But he's forced into this with previous bad investments of Mount and Antony.

5. Not getting rid of bad salaries of Maguire, Henderson, Bailly, Martial immediately last season, taking a short term financial hit but coming out ahead long term with more money to invest in rebuilding year 3 onwards.
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Number 3, what do you mean that Chelsea didn’t invest in him?
 
What’s happening with Ibrahim Sangaré these days?

He was running the show for PSV for the last few years and yet isn’t linked to anyone…
 
Midfielder, at least one. Striker, RB or RW are dream scenarios that just wont happen. We pray for Mainoo, Amad to grow fast, Rashy to finally wanting to play upfront and AWB to hit top form and keep improving fast.
 
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