Who here hopes United get spanked tonight?

I've been thinking about this.

Logically you can't deny that, if we truly believe Moyes' presence here is damaging the club, then short term pain would indeed benifit us in the long term.

But...

Football is about more than logic, isn't it? It's about irrational passion as much as anything. With that in mind, I don't think I could ever hope for anything other than victory against our rivals. This is particularly the case when a loss to someone like Liverpool would be a massive boost in their attempt to win the title after so many years.

I can't honestly be too critical of anyone who thinks in a colder, calculated way and I certainly see the point they're making. I can't agree though, the idea of supporting Liverpool or City against United makes me feel slightly unwell.

I can't pretend that Moyes' departure wouldn't be some consolation if the worst did happen though.
 
I hope we smash them and put 10 past the pair, but if we lose it's probably better for the club to lose heavily and face reality than some morale 'boosting' 1-0 loss with a 'good' peformance
 
sullydnl said:
I've been thinking about this.

Logically you can't deny that, if we truly believe Moyes' presence here is damaging the club, then short term pain would indeed benifit us in the long term.

But...

Football is about more than logic, isn't it? It's about irrational passion as much as anything. With that in mind, I don't think I could ever hope for anything other than victory against our rivals. This is particularly the case when a loss to someone like Liverpool would be a massive boost in their attempt to win the title after so many years.

I can't honestly be too critical of anyone who thinks in a colder, calculated way and I certainly see the point they're making. I can't agree though, the idea of supporting Liverpool or City against United makes me feel slightly unwell.

I can't pretend that Moyes' departure wouldn't be some consolation if the worst did happen though.
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As I was typing my last reply to this thread, you were typing this, probably also inspired by what Woodzy said.

sullydnl said:
The worst result from our point of view would be stumbling through the rest of the season as we have been thus far.

If things improved than we'd have more cause for optimism, the sense of crisis around the club would diminish and the players might fall in behind Moyes.

If the results are bad/got worse then at least things would come to a head and Moyes' ill fated reign would come to an end.

Somewhere in the middle would kill us though as fans and players would become further disillusioned to the point where Moyes' departure is inevitable, yet we'd still be some way from that actually happening. That extra wasted time could be the difference between a quick return to the top and a long term struggle.
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From this my understanding is that your view is pretty cold and calculated, as you put it: we'd be better off losing all our remaining games (tho better still winning them all) than muddling through with a win to West Brom here and a draw against Liverpool there, interspersed by a whole load of losses. Im not knocking this opinion BTW, there is a logic to it. Its difficult, which you allude to, aligning the irrational passion of football with a more calculated desire for long term success. It can be messy. That's why I think this is an interesting debate.
 
Lots of great fans in here, arrogant enough to think they know enough about football to know that us getting hammered in games is good for the club
 
Adebesi said:
As I was typing my last reply to this thread, you were typing this, probably also inspired by what Woodzy said.



From this my understanding is that your view is pretty cold and calculated, as you put it: we'd be better off losing all our remaining games (tho better still winning them all) than muddling through with a win to West Brom here and a draw against Liverpool there, interspersed by a whole load of losses. Im not knocking this opinion BTW, there is a logic to it. Its difficult, which you allude to, aligning the irrational passion of football with a more calculated desire for long term success. It can be messy. That's why I think this is an interesting debate.
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Yep, I think we would be better off, I just can't want it to happen. I understand that wanting us to beat Liverpool and City is irrational considering the scenario I painted in the second post you quoted but I can't help it. The thought of Liverpool winning the title after beating us...

So yeah, I recognise the contradiction there but, as I said, football is about more than just logic.
 
Even if Liverpool, City, Olympiacos,and WBA all beat us there is no chance Moyes will get sacked. So we all may as we get behind the team and hope we put a dent in Liverpool and City's title hopes.
 
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Adebesi said:
That's quite a neat distinction.
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:lol: I know, it does seem like I'm sitting on the fence a bit.

Imagine the scenario though: We've just put in the worst performance of the season against Liverpool. A display so atrocious it has us convinced that Moyes needs to go asap. Yet, somehow, it's still 0-0. Liverpool have a free kick in the 93rd minute. Logically Liverpool scoring here could spell the end of Moyes, thus greatly improving our long term prospects.

But...

Could you actually imagine wanting Gerrard to smash the kick past De Gea? I mean actually willing it to happen? I just couldn't do it, it screams against every instinct as a fan, especially when you know it could win them the title.
 
sullydnl said:
:lol: I know, it does seem like I'm sitting on the fence a bit.

Imagine the scenario though: We've just put in the worst performance of the season against Liverpool. A display so atrocious it has us convinced that Moyes needs to go asap. Yet, somehow, it's still 0-0. Liverpool have a free kick in the 93rd minute. Logically Liverpool scoring here could spell the end of Moyes, thus greatly improving our long term prospects.

But...

Could you actually imagine wanting Gerrard to smash the kick past De Gea? I mean actually willing it to happen? I just couldn't do it, it screams against every instinct as a fan, especially when you know it could win them the title.
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No absolutely not. And in fact there was no accusatory tone in my last reply, if you detected one. I actually do see the distinction you are making. Not least because, as Getsme correctly points out (and many people did weeks ago when this was first posted) there is actually no knowing what it will take for Moyes to get sacked. Hoping for that free kick to go in would be insane because in all probability it would not lead to Moyes getting sacked at all. IF it was possible to know that for sure (or when this thread was created, if we had KNOWN losing to Arsenal would have spelt the end) it would be a slightly different discussion. I wouldnt want that free kick to go in anyway, even in that hypothetical situation. But in the absence of that certainty youd be hard pressed to find a single United fan who would feel differently, Im sure.
 
If you ever want Manchester United to lose for any reason you're a pathetic excuse for a fan.

Even if it means Liverpool/Leeds get shat on as a direct consequence. It's absolutely bloody ridiculous.
 
Adebesi said:
No absolutely not. And in fact there was no accusatory tone in my last reply, if you detected one. I actually do see the distinction you are making. Not least because, as Getsme correctly points out (and many people did weeks ago when this was first posted) there is actually no knowing what it will take for Moyes to get sacked. Hoping for that free kick to go in would be insane because in all probability it would not lead to Moyes getting sacked at all. IF it was possible to know that for sure (or when this thread was created, if we had KNOWN losing to Arsenal would have spelt the end) it would be a slightly different discussion. I wouldnt want that free kick to go in anyway, even in that hypothetical situation. But in the absence of that certainty youd be hard pressed to find a single United fan who would feel differently, Im sure.
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Under current circumstances, holding Liverpool to a 0-0 for most of the game would be vaguely respectable anyway, even if Gerrard were to score his hypothetical injury-time winner. Can I pose a different scenario - what if we are 2-0 down at half time having stunk the place out? Would you be praying for a comeback or coming to the conclusion that it would be better to get a hiding to make the manager's position less tenable/untenable?

As for winning to stop Liverpool winning the title, that is reminiscent of the old Manchester City and I find that truly depressing a year after we won the league by 11 points....
 
Tomalonge said:
If you ever want Manchester United to lose for any reason you're a pathetic excuse for a fan.

Even if it means Liverpool/Leeds get shat on as a direct consequence. It's absolutely bloody ridiculous.
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I dunno, would you be happy for us to beat another team in the last day of the season which would guarantee Liverpool the title for example? Almost all Liverpool fans were delighted when Gerrard passed it back to Drogba for him to clinch the title for Chelsea. I can't promise I'd feel different about it too, assuming there's nothing left to play for.
 
Kaos said:
I dunno, would you be happy for us to beat another team in the last day of the season which would guarantee Liverpool the title for example? Almost all Liverpool fans were delighted when Gerrard passed it back to Drogba for him to clinch the title for Chelsea. I can't promise I'd feel different about it too, assuming there's nothing left to play for.
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No, never. If United are playing, I want them to win. As pleasing as it is when Leeds and Liverpool fail, I'd hate it to be because we failed too.
 
MoskvaRed said:
what if we are 2-0 down at half time having stunk the place out? Would you be praying for a comeback or coming to the conclusion that it would be better to get a hiding to make the manager's position less tenable/untenable?
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Its a bit like what Bross said a few posts above. If we came back from an awful start to draw or win the game, that would be evidence of something positive in its own right, so yes, I would be hoping for that.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Is anyone willing to admit they're hoping for a heavy defeat tomorrow night?

As we saw at Spurs, humiliating defeats against long term rivals can be the straw that breaks the camel's back for owners that have doubts about their manager. If we're 100% certain that Moyes won't succeed then it's all about the end game. Getting rid as soon as possible. A heavy defeat against Arsenal will help this process along. Especially in the context of recent humiliations. Short term pain, long term gain.

Conversely, beating a top three team away from home will definitely buy him a stay of execution. Possibly for quite some time. If the club is looking for signs of long-term improvement a result like that would carry a lot of weight.

So... Cards on the table. Who's rooting for the gooners?
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After hearing SAF's statements about "giving Moyes time" and that bullsh*t, I'm now actually rooting for Liverpool to spank us.

Our club needs a real hit on the head to wake up and realize that we're only fooling ourselves with that "give the manager time" principle non-sense. It's so obvious Moyes isn't going to turn this around! Stop fooling yourself! lol
 
I just hope the club knows what it's doing with regards Moyes. I don't actively hope we'll lose, let alone to our rivals. But if he gets sacked as a result I'd be okay with it.
 
Adebesi said:
Its a bit like what Bross said a few posts above. If we came back from an awful start to draw or win the game, that would be evidence of something positive in its own right, so yes, I would be hoping for that.
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I suppose it would depend on the circumstances - a storming comeback might indicate Moyes is starting to "get" United. Although, envisaging that from my post-Olympiakos perspective, it's a bit like the task facing some Christian missionary knocking on Richard Dawkins's door...
 
MoskvaRed said:
I suppose it would depend on the circumstances - a storming comeback might indicate Moyes is starting to "get" United. Although, envisaging that from my post-Olympiakos perspective, it's a bit like the task facing some Christian missionary knocking on Richard Dawkins's door...
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Quite. In fact, even after that storming second half few would bet against us throwing all that out the window in time for the start of the next game. Still, if we are going to spend our time wishing for things, Id rather wish for better from Moyes than worse from United.
 
As things stand right now, I desperately wish the club get rid of DM. So if there was a clear indication that DM's job hung on a couple of bad results, I'd pray to god we get hammered. It doesn't make me a "bad supporter" or "spoilt" but I'd certainly choose the lesser of the two evils. On one hand we could get a few positive results while performances don't improve but DM would get a lifeline and the listless dross would continue through next season. On the other hand getting hammered to ensure he's off feels like a bit of suffering to ensure long term gain.

Another United supporting friend of mine who's a doctor by profession came up with an analogy that can be used to explain our current predicament. It's like having to amputate a body part to save the rest. It hurts like hell and would not be anyone's preferred choice but it has to be done to save the victim's life. If losing ensures that the wrong man for the job gets canned, I'm all for it.

However if even we get hammered and DM isn't removed and the management still insists on giving him a couple of seasons, I hope we thrash our opponents in all remaining games 10-0.
 
You wouldnt amputate until you had exhausted all other possibilities though. You dont amputate on a whim. You dont amputate because your leg is hurting, even though you are on other medication and one of the known side effects is a dull throbbing ache in the leg. Especially if your last doctor said, in his last words before he retired, "I want you to get behind this drug, just like you have always supported my diagnoses in the past." Or something.
 
Adebesi said:
You wouldnt amputate until you had exhausted all other possibilities though. You dont amputate on a whim. You dont amputate because your leg is hurting, even though you are on other medication and one of the known side effects is a dull throbbing ache in the leg. Especially if your last doctor said, in his last words before he retired, "I want you to get behind this drug, just like you have always supported my diagnoses in the past." Or something.
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Nice counter-logic. :)
Don't quite know how I could argue against that. Though I still feel our season so far is more like haemorrhage than just a case of the leg hurting. Guess I'm just blowing things out of proportion.
 
Mauzindark said:
Nice counter-logic. :)
Don't quite know how I could argue against that. Though I still feel our season so far is more like haemorrhage than just a case of the leg hurting. Guess I'm just blowing things out of proportion.
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I cant believe you think so. I thought I was typing nonsense! I must be really clever on a subconscious level.
 
Adebesi said:
You wouldnt amputate until you had exhausted all other possibilities though. You dont amputate on a whim. You dont amputate because your leg is hurting, even though you are on other medication and one of the known side effects is a dull throbbing ache in the leg. Especially if your last doctor said, in his last words before he retired, "I want you to get behind this drug, just like you have always supported my diagnoses in the past." Or something.
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But the analogy is a bit overdone in any event - we wouldn't be crippling ourselves by sacking him. The only real question is whether there is a convincing replacement available. As Oscar Wilde might have said were he a Stretford Ender, to appoint two bad managers would be careless.
 
I wouldn't want us to lose to City or Liverpool specifically as it would put them a step further to winning the title, and obviously I want us to turn things around in the Champions League. However, right now it's very unlikely we will be getting anything from those 3 games, and if we drop points to West Brom in amongst it all then it would be curtains for him. I would just be worried that if we sneak a few good results in amongst the usual shite football, in the same manner as the Arsenal and Crystal Palace games, then it will only buy him more time when the overall feeling is that he needs to go now.
 
Adebesi said:
Only time i ever sat in the away end at OT was with Spurs fans when this happened.



I vowed I would never do it again. That was not fun.
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I can imagine. Right next to the away end too. They would've been frothing at the mouth.

Tbf, that was pretty scandalous.
 
I think he's the wrong man for the job and hope his stint doesn't cost us, but he has got to get us a win over Liverpool in 10 or so days time.
 
When this thread was started not too long ago I was very arrogant in my stand - no way would I ever want United to lose to anyone, let alone to Liverpool/City.

In that short period of time though my stance has considerably changed as I have lost complete faith in Moyes being able to turn this around even given time. So now like others I do find myself saying, if the lesser of two evils is Liverpool/City winning (and winning the title as a result) but, us losing to them would mean the departure of Moyes then so be it.

Granted I don't think no matter the result will the club leadership let him go right now - my opinion is will be the wrong decision by them. At the start of next season we will have a lot of the same players, either don't have confidence in Moyes and/or confidence in themselves. Bringing 2-3 players is not going to change that and there has been no evidence of progress in terms of pure football on the field, so I don't see how more time is going to fix that - especially if there is this entrenched belief they are doing right things as coaches but, luck and personnel are the issue.
 
There is no guarantee that Moyes will lose his job if we lose heavily to both City and Liverpool. I'm desperate for him to leave at the end of the season but I've resigned to the fact that he will be here for for at least another season. What is shocking is the number of fans, media who are willing to see him given more time. At worst we should be 4th place. Our league position is not indicative of the task of replacing the great SAF. It is not about injuries, ageing players, shit players. Our league position just reinforces that Moyes is not/will never be the calibre of manager for Manchester United.
 
I don't understand some of the people in here. There's some really perverse logic on display.

Wanting us to lose just to get rid of Moyes is farcical... because if we're not losing, then why do we need to get rid of him? We should want him to be sacked if we play poorly, not want us to play poorly so he gets sacked.
 
If we were in the same position next season I could understand some of these opinions but after 2/3 of an injury hit season to be so sure of your opinion that moyes can't turn this around is just ridiculous
 
I wonder what happened to thise fans who used to remind us that the EPL league table does not lie.
 
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