are we playing tonight?
Who here hopes United get spanked tonight?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
We could lose 37-0 to Liverpool and I'd bet we'd still hear the same nonsense in the aftermath.
Moyes will say he's "surprised" byit or "doesn't know" what more he could have done. We'd get the same spewl from the likes of Fergie about Moyes needing time, the club being run impecibly and having a great set up, etc. Players saying they need to do better and certain things just aren't quite clicking etc.
No one wanting to admit how terribly the club has been run for years now, how delusional the players are in their own performance levels, or how clueless Moyes seems to be in regards to doing anything about it, because all of this involves people admitting culpability or fault, and the default reaction to any criticism at United for years now has been to bury heads in the sand and pretend the criticism isn't valid.
If it's about needing a wake up call, well, by now, someone's already gone to the lengths of setting an atomic bomb off inside United's earlobe, and all United did was roll over and go back to sleep. The club has been kicked up the arse so many times there's no room left to fit anymore boots.
Moyes will say he's "surprised" byit or "doesn't know" what more he could have done. We'd get the same spewl from the likes of Fergie about Moyes needing time, the club being run impecibly and having a great set up, etc. Players saying they need to do better and certain things just aren't quite clicking etc.
No one wanting to admit how terribly the club has been run for years now, how delusional the players are in their own performance levels, or how clueless Moyes seems to be in regards to doing anything about it, because all of this involves people admitting culpability or fault, and the default reaction to any criticism at United for years now has been to bury heads in the sand and pretend the criticism isn't valid.
If it's about needing a wake up call, well, by now, someone's already gone to the lengths of setting an atomic bomb off inside United's earlobe, and all United did was roll over and go back to sleep. The club has been kicked up the arse so many times there's no room left to fit anymore boots.
this
In what way has the club been run so bad for the last few years?
Do you mean the Glazer ownership? Or simply that Fergie didn't address the midfield issue.
Many look upon utd as a great business model. Don't they?
Do you mean the Glazer ownership? Or simply that Fergie didn't address the midfield issue.
Many look upon utd as a great business model. Don't they?
I could offer one month salary to get rid if Moyes, but losing to Pool... never.
The man is totally clueless (at this level) and I would rather trust a blind monkey instead of him but I hope the owners solve my problem after the last game of the season, otherwise we have a nightmare in front of us.
The man is totally clueless (at this level) and I would rather trust a blind monkey instead of him but I hope the owners solve my problem after the last game of the season, otherwise we have a nightmare in front of us.
Cliche bingo after the next defeat, listen out for:
We need to just keep doing what we are doing.
Im the manager and I take full responsibility.
If we had taken [the chance we didnt take] it could have been a very different game.
We just needed that little bit of luck but we didnt get it today.
We played well enough to win today, we put in 4371 crosses, which is a world record for the sport at any level.
We need to just keep doing what we are doing.
Im the manager and I take full responsibility.
If we had taken [the chance we didnt take] it could have been a very different game.
We just needed that little bit of luck but we didnt get it today.
We played well enough to win today, we put in 4371 crosses, which is a world record for the sport at any level.
Nah the logic is fine.
A) You believe Moyes will be a failure in the long term, short term results will have no impact on this.
B) However, short term results will have an impact on how long it takes for Moyes' inevitable sacking to occur. As such, short term failure might prove to be beneficial as it has zero influence on what the end result will be beyond the timeframe.
Basically, it makes perfect sense as long as you're already totally convinced that Moyes will fail, to the point where even good results in upcoming games will not convince you otherwise (or at least are extremely unlikely to do so).
We are trying to prove how "Manchester United always sticks to traditions and gives their manager time." We are trying to do that so hard that all logic seems to have dispersed from the people who run this club. By trying to be different we've put tinted specs on. Common sense is lost.
You know what one positive of sticking with Moyes is? When he is eventually sacked, and he will be, other managers will have taken note of how much time he was given, hopefully making us a more tempting option to the top managers.
Unpleasant echoes of "the Liverpool way" that justified all the stupid decisions they made over the years.
When we bring someone in alongside Moyes as co-manager we'll know the metamorphosis into Liverpool is complete.
wow, that is some serious criticism Noods.
I'm sure the six year contract will be a popular precedent too. Guaranteed time and guaranteed massive payment. Sweet deal.
...however...if we lose to WBA, City and Liverpool...surely..surely even the board will have the alarm bells ringing. I mean not in terms of sacking him immediately..but trusting him with a rebuild. Because it will surely mean he has lost the players..players who might not be the best in the world, but certainly can be motivated to win a league by 11 points. It would mean losing around 8 players wouldn't it? Will the board really trust him with a massive outlay of cash to rebuild? I know what I would do if I was a managing director or chairman of a club.
It's just frustrating. It's not like we are being like Arsenal fans who want to sack a successful manager who at least gets them top 4 every year and, recently, while selling players and spending little.
It's not like we are Chelsea or Man City who sack managers who don't win something for a year (or in the case of Chelsea, managers who reach finals and win trophies).
We are in seventh place with a squad which has deficiencies no doubt but still should be making top 4. We are playing bad football which isn't improving. We seem to ignore these fundamental points when we try and stick to our "tradition" that the situation is absolutely nothing like the clubs we seem so afraid to be grouped with.
All of it to be honest. Here's a list:
On field related stuff - The stupid attempt to build a "new" team around old players. Neglecting or misusing younger players in the process. Fergie, even according to his book, apparently just changing his mind over night about this and deciding the likes of Scholes, Rio, etc were the way to go. Helping to cause the rut we now find ourselves in where younger players have no experience or positional consistency, and older ones have a sense of entitlement rahter than feeling any need to work for their place.
Complete and utter ignorance of the fact our only semi reliable midfielder for years, is Michael Carrick...a talented coward who reverts to hiding behind his central defenders when the other team's midfield decides to turn up. Attempting to address this by playing central defenders, wingers, and whatever Ji Sung Park was, in central midfield.
Lacklustre performances which Fergie then delusionally puts down to "nostalgia" over past United teams, instead of attempting to address. Noticable lazyness and lack of response to situations or opposition tactics during games. People like Rio Ferdinand openly admitting they think they're good enough to "only play at 80%" even AFTER a terrible run of results and form.
A new manager who relies continiously on the same underperforming players, yet swaps out and regularly drops players who generally play quite well, has no idea what his best team is even after nearly 3/4 of a season. Comes across as self pitiful when he speaks and allows a situation where his awfully performing club captain is allowed to not only shirk all responsibilities of being a captain, but openly admit he doesn't give a feck about playing for the club anymore...and yet still plays, every single week.
Off field related stuff - Moronic approach to transfers and "value in the market", which involves not signing good players because United's valuation of them is below that of the rest of the world...a complete reversal of this however in order to sign mediocre players like Ashley Young. Allowing an invaluable talent like Paul Pogba to leave for free, because he had the temerity to want to be paid a fair wage, and be considered ahead of players who he was obviously better than, and who didn't even play in the same position as him. Contrasted with Wayne Rooney being allowed to publicly hold the club to ransom...twice. Giving the likes of Anderson and Nani new contracts in order to just feck them around and basically keep them on the wage bill for no other reason than to sit around wasting their careers.
Signing of Bebe which was at best an incredibly dumb piece of business which shoots to pieces everything Fergie or anyone else has claimed about the club and "value" and casts a light on how things are actually run, and which at worst was unethical and just plain criminal.
Gill and Fergie leaving at the same time and Woodward being put in chrage despite quite blatantly not being up to task. Muelesteen and Phelan both being first team coaches, both leaving, both revealing themselves to be alarmingly stupid people in the aftermath.
United the business - It isn't, it's supposed to be a football club. Debt, fannying around with stock and having the manager shamelessly promote it. Owners selling clubs assets (eg training ground) to themselves via a seperate private company, so the club itself effectively no longer owns it's own assets (good luck with that if and when the Glazers decide to sell).
Pathetic treatment of fans who are now referred to by the club as "customers". Automatic Cup Scheme. Confiscating of scarves in the ground. Confiscating of banners in the ground. Confiscating of tickets from people who lend them to friends. Threatening to cancel first ever game played in Australia minutes before kick off and after fans have arrived, because the wrong type of coke was being advertised on the advertising boards. Forcing fans to remove United badges from their twitter page in order to "protect the club brand"
I almost feel slightly sick when I hear the crap about what a "well run club" United are to be honest. They're the biggest mess in the league outside of the likes of Cardiff. I haven't felt I could be proud of anything other than the on pitch performance for a long while, and this season even that has gone to pot.
Other clubs have a strategy on and off the field, even if it is questionable in certain areas. City for example. United just go around doing all manner of random shit and then trying to dress it up in a way that doesn't make them look stupid. The only effective strategy they currently have is their persuit of commercial partnerships, and even that will fall by the wayside if some of the rest of the nonsense isn't addressed, because there'll end up being no solid platform to pitch it on.
Perhaps we have our own red-tinted specs on when we are so adamant that our squad should be making the top 4 with ease? From what I can tell, every other team or at least those looking to usurp United's dominant status in the league went out and improved markedly. We did not and that is the football equivalent of standing still. It's no surprise to me that so many teams have gone ahead of us in the league as a result. Our arrogance about the squad's quality is biting us in the arse right now.
That being said, they are good players but I think the club is a bit guilty of stifiling the transition. We are playing it safe and taking things slowly. We mostly look like last year's team on the pitch, without the added impetus from Fergie and we are playing like it. 15 points is what most supposed Fergie won us each season and that number is amazingly poignant at this moment. Moyes took his time to get to know the players and that is at least very fair even if it has harmed our position in the league table.
Agree. There'd be a massive difference between us sacking Moyes and Chelsea sacking Ancelotti, for example. Now that was an insane decision.
If you're going to have "give the manager time" as a key tradition then you should really add "hire the best manager available" to the list too. For some reason the board focused on the fact that we gave SAF time while ignoring the fact that he was already a high achiever before he ever arrived here. That would've been a nice tradition to follow too.
That's the first time I've ever seen "almost everyone" spelled that way.
I think he means from inside the club
Liverpool are on for the title - we must beat them. Moyes will understand this, the players will understand this - the atmosphere will be buzzing.
I didn't see Real or Chelsea struggling to attract the best coaches just because everyone knows they tend to sack them quickly as well. Heck, we all talked about 'who the hell will go to Cardiff' a couple of months ago. Look who did.
Naa, it won't make any difference at all.
@noodlehair that's one hell of a list, but I have to agree with most of it. The rot has been setting in for a while. Problem is, I consider the appointment of Moyes as part of that rot - not being able to look at how football is being played today - rather than the solution.
You made some good points and some bad ones but this part is the one I agree with the most.
We picked some horrible lineups over the years in the CC, FA cup and dead UCL games simply to accommodate players who 'needed a game'. Stuff like picking Macheda as a left winger or playing Owen at the tip of a diamond. I'm not sure how this helps a young player come along.
We seem to be making the same mistake IMO with Jones and Smalling. Using them as right backs, midfielders and whatever else to make sure they get enough minutes, but rarely playing them in the position that they are meant to be played in. I'm not sure how this has helped them develop into a future CB partnership at the club because as centerbacks I don't think they have progressed as they should've. In Smalling's case I reckon his passing has gotten worse since his first season.
Meanwhile it has a detrimental effect on the first team because our backup rightbacks are really not good enough and our first choice one is forever injured.
I actually think it's a pretty silly thread, especially that I know now what Pogue's intentions were.This thread is a work of genius
The Moyes brigade has hit a new low in desperation.
Yeah, I meant as crappy said, from inside the club. Even the most stubborn of denialist fans have had to admit there are some rather concerning issues now.
Inside the club though you get the impression everyone's living in a fantasy land where at no point over the last 3 years has anyone done anything wrong or let their standards slip.
I don't think Moyes is the cause of much of it as people would have you believe. The problem with Moyes is, he inspires me with full confidence that he doesn't have enough of a clue (or perhaps the balls) to sort any of it out.
Some of the Moyes Out camp tend to forget the last 2 years too, so I think it goes both ways.
They seem to think we were exceptional, as opposed to narrowly winning a lot of our games.
I think most would admit that the club was not exceptional compared to Bayern and Barca for the past 2-3 years.
Most do yeah, but some of them make out that we were incredible and every player in the squad played like a champion. That's where it goes a bit far for me. We weren't bad but at the same time we weren't anything better than good in my opinion.
I don't think I have ever seen anyone say we were incredible. There was a belief in the side though and the players clearly played for the manager but there were a lot of complaints as many saw were behind Europe's elite. The problem is we have regressed further this season and even more so as we go along game by game.
That's fine, I don't remember you saying anything like that either. Others have though, they point out that we have a team of champions, without mentioning that most of them were carried by one or two individuals.
Come to think of it, we've been relying on individual performances since about 2008.
Well the whole thing of the team being carried by one or two individuals is overstated and is just as bad as the comment that we are a team of champions. Teams have relied on individuals for years. Last season we relied on Van Persie, the year before we relied on Rooney, the year before that Berbatov took a lot of the weight as well.
When I see someone say a team of champions, I think it means that there was a belief in the team to win games which they shouldn't. This season other than the Arsenal game and the much lauded Leverkusen game we lost all our tricky matches.
Well it's all interpretation at the end of the day. I do feel some have a slightly revisionist view of our last few seasons under Fergie. He's a manager that will always get that extra 5% out of every player that no other manager could get, it's what sets him apart from any other manager.
Ok, yeah, I get you now.
Although I don't know whether any of us actually know how much concern there has been - within the club - about the gradual decline in standards over the last few years.
In a way, the chickens have only properly come home to roost quite recently anyway. I'm sure the powers that be at the club - just like the fans - have been hoping/expecting that Nani and Anderson would eventually get their shit together and that Welbeck, Smalling, Jones and Cleverley would fulfil their potential as some of the best young footballers in the league. A year or two back who would have predicted that Henderson, Townsend, Sturridge and Sterling would be the most hyped young English talents going into the WC this summer while there are major doubts over every United player who is up for selection, including a fecking petition against including one of them in the squad?!?
I'm still hopeful that our up and coming youngsters are just as rattled by the managerial changeover as the seasoned pros and will eventually get their shit together. If not, the problems run very deep indeed but were not entirely predictable, based on what most people would have predicted at any time over the last few seasons.
The problem is we currently seem to have a manager (again this is just my view) who has knocked the confidence of the players and not getting enough of them. Not a single United player looks happy at the moment and it shows.
But my point is how much of that is directly due to Moyes and how much of it is due to losing Fergie, not only the greatest manager but a father figure to a lot of them too.
Bit of both, but due to the unhappiness of the players I would say more down to Moyes but I'm sure you would disagree and it's just an opinion right now. The worse the results get the more likely the negativity on Moyes will stand.
Absolutely, that'd be expected.
As you suspect our viewpoint differs, but I'm in no way trying to be pro-Moyes. I just think it's a bit soon to be kicking him out when there's a possibility it might not be him to blame, however slight it may be. The solution to it could just be around the corner too.
As you suspect our viewpoint differs, but I'm in no way trying to be pro-Moyes. I just think it's a bit soon to be kicking him out when there's a possibility it might not be him to blame, however slight it may be. The solution to it could just be around the corner too.
So, with the benefit of hindsight, does anyone now think a heavy defeat against Arsenal would have been a better result for us?
The additional point we picked up makes feck all difference to our league campaign, that's for sure. If we had lost badly in that game followed by the Olympiakos and Liverpool debacles then the thin thread by which Moyes' career at United is hanging would be stretched that bit closer to breaking point.
If nothing else, a convincing Arsenal win would have made it marginally less likely that fecking Liverpool will win the league...
The additional point we picked up makes feck all difference to our league campaign, that's for sure. If we had lost badly in that game followed by the Olympiakos and Liverpool debacles then the thin thread by which Moyes' career at United is hanging would be stretched that bit closer to breaking point.
If nothing else, a convincing Arsenal win would have made it marginally less likely that fecking Liverpool will win the league...
I wanted us to win heavily like I would want us to every match. Hopefully we'll make the right call with Moyes in the summer, whatever that is, regardless of our results till the end of the season