Who here hopes United get spanked tonight?

Lol... IF the powers that be are going to stick by Moyes regardless of what happens this season, then surely people should be wishing United on to win and get a lucky draw for the quarter finals. We don't know what our form might be like by the time that comes around, if we get through, we will be full of optimism for the City game, and could pull off a result, and that could be the catalyst for a run of form.

I'm quite shocked United 'fans' want to see their team lose. Mental.
 
I hope we win 6-0.

I just can't get my head around the idea of hoping the club one supports losing a cup tie of any kind. A meaningless league match or dead rubber in group play perhaps, but not a knockout round match? No way.
 
Sarni said:
As did Liverpool and you could make the case about Chelsea who were 3-0 up after 50 minutes in spite of being quite poor for the whole game. Also, Olympiakos in CL.

We were half decent against Liverpool and Chelsea at the beginning of the season yet failed to score even once. That was before Moyes sucked all the life out of players too.
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If you read my original post the point is that Moyes seems to be able to kill games versus big teams, and seems to prefer doing this, which means we don't get hammered very often, so hoping we lose tonight so that we 'dont get hammered and embarrassed' is stupid, that's the context of this discussion. Against Chelsea we had a great first half and then we conceded a deflection and two set pieces, against liverpool a deflection after a bullshit red card and two penalties, against Olympiakos the 2-0 'hammering' was a deflection and a 30 yarder. There's a pattern here and it's that our team is quite good tactically at soaking up pressure, unfortunately meaning that we are awful at actually attacking and set up too deep most of the time due to some defenders lack of pace. There should be fears that we will look very limp vs whoever we got in the next round of the CL but I don't really think fears that we will be hammered by several goals are justified.
 
Jonno said:
Lol... IF the powers that be are going to stick by Moyes regardless of what happens this season, then surely people should be wishing United on to win and get a lucky draw for the quarter finals. We don't know what our form might be like by the time that comes around, if we get through, we will be full of optimism for the City game, and could pull off a result, and that could be the catalyst for a run of form.

I'm quite shocked United 'fans' want to see their team lose. Mental.
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We're thinking big picture, long term. Which is how United as a club thinks - ask David.

You are obviously not thinking big picture though.
 
antihenry said:
I could never understand wanting your own team to lose.

I don't think winning or losing against Olimpiakos will make or break United's season or affect Moyes's fortune. United aren't winning the CL bar some miracle, and whether he's still in charge come next season isn't going to depend on that. Support your club.
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To many this is 'supporting your team'. A lot (myself included) are looking at this from a long-term perspective, that as long as Moyes remains in charge the more the club will suffer. This is nothing to do with supporting Moyes, this is supporting the club and with every passing game, is becomes more and more evident that Moyes' appointment was a terrible decision.

As far as I see it, the first step on United's road to recovery and return to the top is sacking Moyes and his coaching staff. I will take a short-term slump if it means a prosperous long-term gain under the guidance of a innovative and modern-thinking manager and coaching team.

If an insipid loss to Olympiakos, devoid of any confidence or inspiration is the final nail in the coffin for Moyes, so be it. We will get absolutely annihilated by whoever we would face in the next round anyway.
 
Glanville95 said:
To many this is 'supporting your team'. A lot (myself included) are looking at this from a long-term perspective, that as long as Moyes remains in charge the more the club will suffer. This is nothing to do with supporting Moyes, this is supporting the club and with every passing game, is becomes more and more evident that Moyes' appointment was a terrible decision.

As far as I see it, the first step on United's road to recovery and return to the top is sacking Moyes and his coaching staff. I will take a short-term slump if it means a prosperous long-term gain under the guidance of a innovative and modern-thinking manager and coaching team.

If an insipid loss to Olympiakos, devoid of any confidence or inspiration is the final nail in the coffin for Moyes, so be it. We will get absolutely annihilated by whoever we would face in the next round anyway.
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Genau. And living in Munich, I couldn't stand it if that were fecking Bayern again.
 
Crashoutcassius said:
If you read my original post the point is that Moyes seems to be able to kill games versus big teams, and seems to prefer doing this, which means we don't get hammered very often, so hoping we lose tonight so that we 'dont get hammered and embarrassed' is stupid, that's the context of this discussion. Against Chelsea we had a great first half and then we conceded a deflection and two set pieces, against liverpool a deflection after a bullshit red card and two penalties, against Olympiakos the 2-0 'hammering' was a deflection and a 30 yarder. There's a pattern here and it's that our team is quite good tactically at soaking up pressure, unfortunately meaning that we are awful at actually attacking and set up too deep most of the time due to some defenders lack of pace. There should be fears that we will look very limp vs whoever we got in the next round of the CL but I don't really think fears that we will be hammered by several goals are justified.
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We got ripped to pieces on Sunday. It could easy have been 5 (even without taking into account that we should have been down to 10 men after 30 minutes). City also went 4-0 up against us after 50 minutes while Chelsea cruised to a 3-0 lead despite not playing particularly well. On current form, it is not inconceivable that we could take a Schalke style thrashing against the real elite in Europe. In any case, I don't expect us to progress tonight as I doubt we can keep a clean sheet.
 
To answer the thread question.

I am not hoping we get hammered this evening, neither should anyone. Long term thinking ? bunch of cnuts.
 
Crashoutcassius said:
If you read my original post the point is that Moyes seems to be able to kill games versus big teams, and seems to prefer doing this, which means we don't get hammered very often, so hoping we lose tonight so that we 'dont get hammered and embarrassed' is stupid, that's the context of this discussion. Against Chelsea we had a great first half and then we conceded a deflection and two set pieces, against liverpool a deflection after a bullshit red card and two penalties, against Olympiakos the 2-0 'hammering' was a deflection and a 30 yarder. There's a pattern here and it's that our team is quite good tactically at soaking up pressure, unfortunately meaning that we are awful at actually attacking and set up too deep most of the time due to some defenders lack of pace. There should be fears that we will look very limp vs whoever we got in the next round of the CL but I don't really think fears that we will be hammered by several goals are justified.
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We've not come across many ruthless teams this season and if Chelsea and Liverpool playing half decent football can put 3 past us then what would happen against Madrid, Bayern or even Barcelona who are far better and won't spare us?

It'd be a painful watch. I'd like to be wrong but I seriously don't think we have it in us to even threaten any of the sides left in the competition. They are all much better at football, simply.
 
Stobzilla said:
To answer the thread question.

I am not hoping we get hammered this evening, neither should anyone. Long term thinking ? bunch of cnuts.
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Obviously we are all hoping that we hammer Olympiakos 5-0 and it's the start of an amazing turnaround that leads us to CL glory.

We are all realists though.
 
Dans said:
We're thinking big picture, long term. Which is how United as a club thinks - ask David.

You are obviously not thinking big picture though.
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No thats fine, lets hope we get relagated then, because Fergie and Charlton, the men who appointed Moyes for the long term stability of the club, will still see him as the man for the job.
 
Jonno said:
No thats fine, lets hope we get relagated then, because Fergie and Charlton, the men who appointed Moyes for the long term stability of the club, will still see him as the man for the job.
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There's no need to go over the top.

What's stability anyway? Seems overrated to me. Stability under Moyes looks like it could well be challenging for a Europa League spot every year, at best.
 
Jonno said:
No thats fine, lets hope we get relagated then, because Fergie and Charlton, the men who appointed Moyes for the long term stability of the club, will still see him as the man for the job.
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There's about as much chance of that happening as there is of Fergie and Charlton being the only people at the club who can pull the plug on Moyes.
 
MoskvaRed said:
We got ripped to pieces on Sunday. It could easy have been 5 (even without taking into account that we should have been down to 10 men after 30 minutes). City also went 4-0 up against us after 50 minutes while Chelsea cruised to a 3-0 lead despite not playing particularly well. On current form, it is not inconceivable that we could take a Schalke style thrashing against the real elite in Europe. In any case, I don't expect us to progress tonight as I doubt we can keep a clean sheet.
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Watching the liverpool match I really didn't think we should have conceded tons. The first real chance I recall them having was a great De Gea save in the second half. They had 14 shots total but 8 outside the box and 6 inside the box, more of those after Vidic got sent off for sturridge's dive. We had 11 shots inside the box and 1 outside. I'm not saying we played well, we were terrible going forward and second to everything, but with Vidic forced to start cb after the injuries we had no choice but to defend deep vs their pace (we saw what happened to spurs high line) and what happened was what you would predict - they mostly threatened from distance (like what happens most weeks vs deep united sides) and they needed a bit of luck to get the break through (ball bouncing up and hitting rafa's hand). Yeah they looked menacing again I'm not saying they didn't, but like I'm saying Moyes' team kills game. I'm not praising Moyes here, but the way the game went and almost all our games have went it's true. The next chance they got was a peno where Jones shoved henderson in the back - again nothing to do with Moyes tactics expect that we were sitting too deep, probably due to vidic. Do you think Moyes told Jones to go out and flatten Henderson (or Allen I don't recall?). Just shows a little of Jones inexperience at CB, something that will improve.

The tactics for the most part worked defensively, as much as people hate to admit it. Probably would have worked even better if we didn't have to start our slowest defender vs the fastest counter attack side in the league. Again saying that Moyes is able to kill these games is not praise, just pointing out what I thought I saw vs Liverpool and many times this season. Defensively we've rarely been terrible from open play. Most of our goals come from sitting too deep and letting shots and deflection go in on us or from individual mistakes. The real problem we should be looking at with Moyes is the lack of fluidity going forward
 
Let's be clear, I will be supporting United tonight, hoping we win. Of course I will. But if fate would have it that with a loss Moyes would be gone, then I wouldn't be upset if we did lose the game, at least a day after his sacking. Until then, I'd be mightily upset about losing to the Greeks.The worst team to enter the round of 16 this year, bar perhaps Schalke.
 
Long term, short term, mid term, half term, end of term, any term --- I always want United to win !!
 
Sarni said:
We've not come across many ruthless teams this season and if Chelsea and Liverpool playing half decent football can put 3 past us then what would happen against Madrid, Bayern or even Barcelona who are far better and won't spare us?

It'd be a painful watch. I'd like to be wrong but I seriously don't think we have it in us to even threaten any of the sides left in the competition. They are all much better at football, simply.
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does that really mean that we don't try? when did fans get so entitled that if you dont think we have a chance of beating barca and bayern then we hope to lose and not progress? you know there are teams every year who turn up despite not having much chance of getting out of their group, their fans cheer for them to win.
 
Crashoutcassius said:
Watching the liverpool match I really didn't think we should have conceded tons. The first real chance I recall them having was a great De Gea save in the second half. They had 14 shots total but 8 outside the box and 6 inside the box, more of those after Vidic got sent off for sturridge's dive. We had 11 shots inside the box and 1 outside. I'm not saying we played well, we were terrible going forward and second to everything, but with Vidic forced to start cb after the injuries we had no choice but to defend deep vs their pace (we saw what happened to spurs high line) and what happened was what you would predict - they mostly threatened from distance (like what happens most weeks vs deep united sides) and they needed a bit of luck to get the break through (ball bouncing up and hitting rafa's hand). Yeah they looked menacing again I'm not saying they didn't, but like I'm saying Moyes' team kills game. I'm not praising Moyes here, but the way the game went and almost all our games have went it's true. The next chance they got was a peno where Jones shoved henderson in the back - again nothing to do with Moyes tactics expect that we were sitting too deep, probably due to vidic. Do you think Moyes told Jones to go out and flatten Henderson (or Allen I don't recall?). Just shows a little of Jones inexperience at CB, something that will improve.

The tactics for the most part worked defensively, as much as people hate to admit it. Probably would have worked even better if we didn't have to start our slowest defender vs the fastest counter attack side in the league. Again saying that Moyes is able to kill these games is not praise, just pointing out what I thought I saw vs Liverpool and many times this season. Defensively we've rarely been terrible from open play. Most of our goals come from sitting too deep and letting shots and deflection go in on us or from individual mistakes. The real problem we should be looking at with Moyes is the lack of fluidity going forward
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Interesting stats - maybe my impressions from Sunday were coloured by the collapse in the last 15 minutes. The lack of fluidity is a real concern. There seems to be a real lack of cohesion between the various units of the team. I suspect some of that could be solved by playing a genuine number 10 at 10 instead of Rooney (who could replace RVP further forward) but you would still be left with the absence of mobility in midfield - that will probably require further additions to the squad over the summer.
 
I don't think the people hoping for a loss for the "greater good" of Moyes being sacked realise that even if he lost 6-0 on aggregate tonight, lost 2-0 to West Ham and lost 5-0 to Man City, he still isn't going anywhere until he has had a chance to strip this squad and bring in his own players.
 
Crashoutcassius said:
does that really mean that we don't try? when did fans get so entitled that if you dont think we have a chance of beating barca and bayern then we hope to lose and not progress? you know there are teams every year who turn up despite not having much chance of getting out of their group, their fans cheer for them to win.
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I would like us to go through to be fair but if going out today means that we'll get rid of Moyes then it might actually be not all that bad.
 
MoskvaRed said:
Interesting stats - maybe my impressions from Sunday were coloured by the collapse in the last 15 minutes. The lack of fluidity is a real concern. There seems to be a real lack of cohesion between the various units of the team. I suspect some of that could be solved by playing a genuine number 10 at 10 instead of Rooney (who could replace RVP further forward) but you would still be left with the absence of mobility in midfield - that will probably require further additions to the squad over the summer.
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We had every right to be level at half time in my opinion, the second half started in the worst possible way and it capitulated from there but it wasn't the 90 minute hiding some would have you believe.
 
Pexbo said:
I don't think the people hoping for a loss for the "greater good" of Moyes being sacked realise that even if he lost 6-0 on aggregate tonight, lost 2-0 to West Ham and lost 5-0 to Man City, he still isn't going anywhere until he has had a chance to strip this squad and bring in his own players.
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I don't think that's as cast iron a certainty as you'd like to believe.
 
Pexbo said:
I don't think the people hoping for a loss for the "greater good" of Moyes being sacked realise that even if he lost 6-0 on aggregate tonight, lost 2-0 to West Ham and lost 5-0 to Man City, he still isn't going anywhere until he has had a chance to strip this squad and bring in his own players.
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How can you be so certain about that?

He certainly wouldn't be the first manager out on his ear, mid-season, after talk about a long-term project and the infamous vote of confidence.
 
Dans said:
I don't think that's as cast iron a certainty as you'd like to believe.
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I'm torn. A part of me says he's here to stay for next 5 years, the other part says he'll go if we don't improve now.

If he stays beyond this season then he can be sure that he'll be here until 2019 like his contract states though. Not a chance of him ever getting sacked if now isn't the time.
 
Pexbo said:
I don't think the people hoping for a loss for the "greater good" of Moyes being sacked realise that even if he lost 6-0 on aggregate tonight, lost 2-0 to West Ham and lost 5-0 to Man City, he still isn't going anywhere until he has had a chance to strip this squad and bring in his own players.
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Exactly.

I can't believe people are wanting United to lose and get knocked out of the Champions League. I've seen worse teams than United win the trophy. Of course I get the point that it would give more weight to the argument that he isn't the man for the job, but Fergie, and Charlton, and no doubt the entire United board are behind Moyes, regardless of the poor results this season. So lets will United to lose all their games between now and the end of the season and watch absolutely nothing get done about it, or support your team and hope we can fluke a cup run. I know what I will be doing.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
How can you be so certain about that?

He certainly wouldn't be the first manager out on his ear, mid-season, after talk about a long-term project and the infamous vote of confidence.
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It's a bit of an exaggeration in terms of results but I really do think they believe that he's been drawn the short straw in terms of player performances and that he deserves to sign and sell who he wants before we judge him.


I think he's shown himself to be a very average manager and hasn't earned that right, personally.
 
Jonno said:
Exactly.

I can't believe people are wanting United to lose and get knocked out of the Champions League. I've seen worse teams than United win the trophy. Of course I get the point that it would give more weight to the argument that he isn't the man for the job, but Fergie, and Charlton, and no doubt the entire United board are behind Moyes, regardless of the poor results this season. So lets will United to lose all their games between now and the end of the season and watch absolutely nothing get done about it, or support your team and hope we can fluke a cup run. I know what I will be doing.
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Name them, disregarding the actual quality of players but considering the quality of football presented by the team.
 
Sarni said:
Name them, disregarding the actual quality of players but considering the quality of football presented by the team.
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Beat me to it.

I don't think he'll be able to name 1.
 
Sarni said:
Name them, disregarding the actual quality of players but considering the quality of football presented by the team.
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No my argument is based on quality of players, because whilst the form might be as bad as it's ever been, we COULD knock Olympiakos out and build some form before the Quarter Finals.

Three out of the last 10..... Chelsea, Liverpool and Porto had players no better than what we have now - Liverpool came nowhere near winning the Premier League that year either.
 
If we weren't playing such bad, unattractive, non attacking football I doubt anybody would even harbour the thought that they'd like United to lose.

But the fact is our football is atrocious, lacking in any creativity at all, and worst of all, getting worse.

Everton fans bemoaned Moyes' style. Everton were great in the 80s but they don't have the pedigree and history that we have when it comes to playing attractive, attacking football. That's what hurts most - the fact that Moyes doesn't appear to have any idea about tactics or how best to play an attacking game. He's shit scared of losing which is as ironic as it fecking comes really isn't it?
 
Dans said:
Beat me to it.

I don't think he'll be able to name 1.
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Casual names are Liverpool, Chelsea and Porto.

Liverpool were very hard to beat in 2005 and played some inspiring stuff in Europe. They got past Leverkusen with ease and showed extreme defensive solidity against Juventus and Chelsea. They played as a unit and you could sense that they were always at their best in Champions League. Not much quality to that side aside from Gerrard, Alonso and perhaps a few others but plenty of spirit, you knew they always wanted to give it a go. Not the case with current United team.

Chelsea had quality and a clear game plan that focused on being tight at the back first and attempting to cut through their opposition with set pieces and fast paced counter attacks. They were gettin
Jonno said:
No my argument is based on quality of players, because whilst the form might be as bad as it's ever been, we COULD knock Olympiakos out and build some form before the Quarter Finals.

Three out of the last 10..... Chelsea, Liverpool and Porto had players no better than what we have now - Liverpool came nowhere near winning the Premier League that year either.
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Liverpool, Porto and Chelsea all played as a unit and were always at their absolute best in CL. This is why they managed to overcome the lack of quality in their respective squads. They defended as units, attacked as units, played intelligent football with clear plan and stellar tactics.

United this season are the exact opposite - full of quality all over the pitch basically but with devoid of any desire to go lengths and with no clear game plan or tactics that would ensure a good performance against half decent teams. No team as disorganised as this could ever come near winning the CL. If you dismantled Bayern and Real Madrid and stripped them off all confidence like United this season I woundn't give them a slightest chance either and they have much better teams.
 
Dans said:
If we were playing such bad, unattractive, non attacking football I doubt anybody would even harbour the thought that they'd like United to lose.

But the fact is our football is atrocious, lacking in any creativity at all, and worst of all, getting worse.

Everton fans bemoaned Moyes' style. Everton were great in the 80s but they don't have the pedigree and history that we have when it comes to playing attractive, attacking football. That's what hurts most - the fact that Moyes doesn't appear to have any idea about tactics or how best to play an attacking game. He's shit scared of losing which is as ironic as it fecking comes really isn't it?
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Thing is this team has no fight in them under this manager. When they go down you don't even hope. I saw the same players try against Madrid down to 10 men and 2-1 behind last year. This season it wouldn't happen, we're 2-0 down to Olympiakos with a return leg to come tonight and most people don't think we are capable of overturning it. It's frankly awful.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
I think you're both not getting my point. No manager ever got sacked on the back of a single bad result, in isolation. It's an accumulation of bad results that does them in.

If a heavy defeat by Arsenal at the Emirates could retrospectively be added to the other bad results this season then you'd have to admit he would be closer to the door right now than he is already, surely?

Conversely, proving that he we were able to travel to a team at the top of the table and come within the width of a post of beating them will be a key bit of evidence on the very short list of 'pros' that are considered in deciding his future.
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I honestly dont know Pogue. It seems like conventional wisdom that the trigger for Moyes' sacking may now be a date, not a result. I mean, he may get sacked at the end of the season, in which case a loss against Arsenal wouldnt have made any difference. Or maybe the Glazers have that magic two year or 18 month horizon in mind, in which case the same applies. I take your point about the accumulation of bad results, but if we assume that he wont get sacked this season, come hell or high water, then no, a different Arsenal result wouildnt have brought it closer. However that assumption could be completely wrong, maybe he'll be sacked tomorrow after we get walloped this evening, in which case you'd have to look back and say maybe the Arsenal result would have changed things. Then again, maybe it wouldnt, maybe even then they would have waited until after the CL.
 
I want us to win because I love European football and I'm well aware that we might not be in the Champions League for 3-4 years easily if we keep Moyes here. The thought of having no football to look forward to for the rest of season is frankly awful.

I am devastated by how the expectations have lowered and how my club is going downhill though.
 
Pexbo said:
I don't think the people hoping for a loss for the "greater good" of Moyes being sacked realise that even if he lost 6-0 on aggregate tonight, lost 2-0 to West Ham and lost 5-0 to Man City, he still isn't going anywhere until he has had a chance to strip this squad and bring in his own players.
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if that's the case then we are lead by a bunch of idiots.
 
I want us to win, but I'm fairly ambivalent about losing the tie. I think the chances of us winning the CL are nil, unless somehow Moyes has soaked up a season's worth of bad luck like a karmic sponge, and we fluke our way to the cup.

While I have no faith in Moyes, I would guess that the board have one of two views. Either a) short of 9 straight defeats in the league, he stays next year or b) short of 9 straight wins he goes this summer. I really don't think that the outcome of this one game will determine it. They either give him a chance next year whatever happens, or they judge him on this season. If its the former he stays, if its the latter he goes.
 
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