I wonder if the presumption that Pogba should start every game is a problem - the same issue Ferguson had balancing the midfield with Veron. I think to accommodate Pogba requires either an excellent and disciplined deep-lying midfielder or even to play a midfield four with hard-working players either side who are prepared to assist in the middle. I'm not sure we have the players for it, in which case, does Pogba actually become a liability?
Who should partner Pogba in our midfield trio?
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The best midfield performance of the season came against Leicester with Herrera sitting a bit deeper and Mata as the 10. Even then that's not a well balanced midfield as Herrera, although he tries hard, can cover ground well and is a decent passer, just isn't a good enough holding midfielder. He'll get exposed against the better sides. But it's the best partnership we have at the minute so let's go with it for now.
Pogba's not the problem, god forbid we start playing fellaini every game, the players are there and we have got the balance, its just doing it every game. And in mata pogba and herrera in allot of games it does work. The only liability's are fellaini and rooney
His name starts with an M and ends with a C, fill the rest. Get him in January as I think he's attainable.
God no, not Fellaini - shouldn't be anywhere near the first team.
I just wonder if, lacking a real quality deep-lying midfielder to cover for Pogba, a midfield base of say Carrick and Herrera would be more balanced.
I know it's not going to happen since we paid megabucks for him but Pogba's inclusion is posing a bit of a conundrum.
Who Matic, eww no thanks
Why not?
Please say you are referring to Modric rather than Matic.
He was rubbish last season and hasn't really been any better this season, prefer to see what Herrera can do in that position
I'd still love to see a midfield 3 of Pogba, Herrera and Blind at least once. I still rate Blind higher as a midfielder than a defender and it looks like Smalling is working his way into Mourinho's team, so there's got to be somewhere to put him. Unless Schneiderlin comes on or Carrick gets 5 years younger, it seems like the best trio available.
Exactly. He's not got the cleverness in terms of defensive positioning that you get from Carrick, or the ability to control the tempo of a game the way a proper midfield schemer is able to do.
The more I think about it, the more I think our central midfield is still a complete mess. Loads of players good at certain elements of midfield play but none of them a truly rounded central midfielder and no obvious effective partnerships. Playing three with Blind/Carrick at the base and Pogba plus one from Fellaini/Hererra/Morgan is the best we can come up with right now but Carrick's too old to play every game and Mourinho doesn't seem to fancy either or him or Blind as regular starters in the engine room. It's a real mess and we'll win feck all until it's sorted. Pogba will be a terrific player but his positional cluelesness has arguably created more problems than his ability on the ball has solved. I've a horrible feeling our midfield will only be properly fixed when we sign yet ANOTHER central midfielder. Ugh.
As someone else said in another thread. If his underwhelming performances in most games so far this season aren't down to a simple drop in form and are due to an inability to find the right players to get the best out of him - despite trying a bunch of different players/formations - then we've signed the most high maintenance player in Europe. Which is far more worrying than him simply playing badly.
That's what happens when you sign a player without a solid plan. Fans and it seems managers too, are only interested by names. The concept of synergy has apparently been lost.
Away \ Strong opposition:
.....blind\carrick
herrera....pogba
Home \ Weak opposition:
Herrera..Pogba
....mata\mkhi
.....blind\carrick
herrera....pogba
Home \ Weak opposition:
Herrera..Pogba
....mata\mkhi
Interesting reading these posts in quick succession. In your first post you seem to be saying that we are working with fairly limited midfield resources, that there are no balanced players in there able to do all aspects of the job needed. But in the second you say Pogba should be able to shine despite this. If there are "no obvious effective partnerships" because some are old or have no positional sense or lack the necessary passing skills or whatever, does that make Pogba "the most high maintenance player in Europe"? Or does it mean we have the most dysfunctional assortment of incompatible or inadequate midfielders in Europe?
In short, I cant quite tell from reading these two posts whether you lay the blame for our midfield problems - and especially Pogba's form - principally at the feet of Pogba or the quality of his partners. I think from reading your posts over a longer period its really Pogba you blame - but I do think your first post, if you think about it, does absolve him from at least a little of the responsibility. Its quite natural for players to thrive, or not, depending on what is happening around them.
I think you are probably right that we will end up needing another midfielder, given Mourinho is showing little interest in seriously experimenting with some of the options he has available. I wish he would though. Id like to see Schneiderlin get more games, Id definitely like to see more of Carrick and I also think we should be trying Blind in there. Pretty much what you are saying in the bit bolded. I think that has potential to serve our purposes for now, maybe it does need upgrading but that combination doesnt look like "a real mess" to me - not on paper at least - it should suffice to beat relatively modest opposition.
Invictus posted a week or two ago about how you dont necessarily need to have players who can do it all in midfield, if you use combinations of players that cover the bases between them, with someone providing the energy, someone else the discipline and someone else the passing range, for example. In that sense we can field a well rounded midfield with that combination, on paper at least. It deserves more outings IMO.
What do you mean high maintenance?
To be fair, I think he just needs the right midfield support around him: -
Oh...
I think there's two burning issues in my head.
Is Pogba really so one dimensional he needs two other players doing most of the work - one to pull the strings when we have the ball and one to do all the defensive graft - for our midfield to function? (with a sub-issue about whether he might become more well rounded in the future and - if not - have we wasted a stupendous sum of money on him).
And why is it with SIX supposedly top CM's (not including BFS) we're apparently reliant on a 35 year old or a player our manager hasn't given a single game in midfield to come up with an effective combination (with a sub-issue about how come the manager's perceptions seem to differ so much from the rest of us)
There's a big overlap between these two issues!
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Pogba is pretty good defensively, I remember seeing his individual stats in Serie A and during the Euro, and he was pretty high in both. The problem is that he is a soloist, if you want to benefit from the best Pogba you need 1 DLP or 1 grafting monster like Vidal or two very good grafters like Marchisio and Khedira. If you only have 1 good grafter Pogba will leave him alone way too often or you will have a tamed version of Pogba who is going to do his defensive work pretty well but won't have the opportunity to use his main attributes.
DLP?
Deep lying playmaker?
Gotcha. Presumably the formula is Pogba + DLP + Grafting monster or Pogba + Grafting monster x 2.
Can't help thinking that playing in central midfield would be a piece of piss if you always have two grafting monsters doing all the actual work. I'd like to think we signed someone who was a little less reliant on other people doing all his fetching and carrying for him...
Can't help thinking that playing in central midfield would be a piece of piss if you always have two grafting monsters doing all the actual work. I'd like to think we signed someone who was a little less reliant on other people doing all his fetching and carrying for him...
Pogba + DLP + GM > Pogba + (GMx2)
So basically if Blind ≠ DLP, we need to replace Carrick as a matter of urgency. In the meantime we should be squeezing every last drop out of him while we can.
But also I think Pogba will develop over time and learn to lift others around him more, rather than always relying on them to lift or enable him.
So basically if Blind ≠ DLP, we need to replace Carrick as a matter of urgency. In the meantime we should be squeezing every last drop out of him while we can.
But also I think Pogba will develop over time and learn to lift others around him more, rather than always relying on them to lift or enable him.
He isn't relying on it to perform at a good level, it's just that 100% of the players will only play at their absolute best when they are played in systems that maximise their potential, Pogba isn't different.
If you ask Messi, Neymar or Ronaldo to play like most wingers they won't be as good because most wingers defend a lot more than they do. You can also look at Kroos he isn't playing at his best level because he is asked to do other things.
Put him in a midfield of Blind and Herrera and we're sorted. I can't believe I'd say that after the 4-4-2 diamond horror show with Blind, Herrera and ADM. But Blind and Herrera have improved since then.
I think it's reasonable to make these kind of allowances for players who will score you a goal a game (or something close to that) but what does Pogba bring to the team that makes it worthwhile to more or less sacrifice one of your ten outfield options to get the best out of him? Never once reached double figures for goals and averages an assist every 6 games. Goals and assists aside, you've already made it clear that we will need someone else alongside him to act as our play-maker and another CM to do most of his defensive duties. So what's left?
I was really excited about him when he first came through at United because I thought he could develop into a proper, all-round central midfield monster. Someone who's creative, a great passer, strong defensively and a goal threat. I didn't follow him closely in Italy and now I'm crapping it that he doesn't have a lot of the basic attributes you'd want from a central midfielder and isn't the kind of exceptionally productive player that you should alter your whole formation, selection and tactics to accommodate. He's still young, obviously, so I really hope there's a lot more to come. Plus I also hope his main issue is getting used to a new team/league, rather than a fundamental inability to cope with playing the way he's been asked. Because if not, I have to say I'm worried we've made a 100 million pound cock-up.
Not sure "sacrifice" is the right word though. That makes it seem like that player is essentially worthless, other than serving Pogba. Or, put another way, that you are basically having to field two players to do the job of one - you are essentially playing with 10 men.
Maybe Im being a bit pedantic here but I think you can look at this differently.
Maybe a certain player - Player A - needs another specific type of player - Player B - to play to his full potential. But then Player B may also excel in his specific function if he is next to Player A. Player A hates defending, but Player B cant pass for shit. But if they play together then can be complementary, they can have a kind of symbiotic relationship, covering each other's deficiencies. They can, perhaps, be more than the sum total of their parts. So rather than seeing it as a form of sacrifice, where Player A + Player B = 1 functioning midfielder, it is actually A+B = more than 2 players.
I dont know if this makes any sense at all outside my own head.
But if you are still with me, if you need B to complement A, or visa versa, and A or B is less than 1 on their own, but more than 2 together, what you are really sacrificing is flexibility. That doesnt have to be cripplingly problematic as long as we have backup options. If Pogba needs Carrick, its OK as long as we also have Blind who can do the job nearly as well. If he needs Herrera... well, then we need someone else who can fill in for Herrera. Schneiderlin maybe.
It would all certainly be much simpler if Pogba could just take the game by the scruff of the neck, and was rounded enough to do whatever was needed. I must admit I kind of assumed for the money we were paying that would be what we were getting. It is a worry, but its still early days and I think he'll develop that ability. I trust Mourinho knew what he was buying and has a plan.
Maybe Im being a bit pedantic here but I think you can look at this differently.
Maybe a certain player - Player A - needs another specific type of player - Player B - to play to his full potential. But then Player B may also excel in his specific function if he is next to Player A. Player A hates defending, but Player B cant pass for shit. But if they play together then can be complementary, they can have a kind of symbiotic relationship, covering each other's deficiencies. They can, perhaps, be more than the sum total of their parts. So rather than seeing it as a form of sacrifice, where Player A + Player B = 1 functioning midfielder, it is actually A+B = more than 2 players.
I dont know if this makes any sense at all outside my own head.
But if you are still with me, if you need B to complement A, or visa versa, and A or B is less than 1 on their own, but more than 2 together, what you are really sacrificing is flexibility. That doesnt have to be cripplingly problematic as long as we have backup options. If Pogba needs Carrick, its OK as long as we also have Blind who can do the job nearly as well. If he needs Herrera... well, then we need someone else who can fill in for Herrera. Schneiderlin maybe.
It would all certainly be much simpler if Pogba could just take the game by the scruff of the neck, and was rounded enough to do whatever was needed. I must admit I kind of assumed for the money we were paying that would be what we were getting. It is a worry, but its still early days and I think he'll develop that ability. I trust Mourinho knew what he was buying and has a plan.
There is no sacrifice here Pogue, the equation is simple Pogba is a very good player with or without a team that suits him but if you want your team to be great you need to find a way to maximize every players contribution.
Since we are building a new team we don't really have a lot of players that we know are good enough to play at the absolute best level, at the moment we have 4 of them grandpa Ibra, Pogba, Bailly and De Gea. Ibrahimovic isn't the future so we are not going to bring players with him in mind, Bailly is a centerback there isn't a lot of question around him from a tactical standpoint and it's the same for De Gea. Now Pogba, we have a team to build and we can take different directions but we have Pogba, why would we build a team that doesn't suits him? That would be really stupid.
When I read your post, it's as if you think that we should build a team without taking into account the resources that we already have, Pogba is our best and most valuable resources so lets build a team that suits him. And by the way a team that suits him also suits other players for example Martial and Ibrahimovic are more comfortable when they have the possibility to respecitvely run inside and drop in the #10 area, Pogba likes to drift on the left and bomb forwards, Herrera likes to play on the right channel and cross like he showed in 2014-2015.
We have the player and resources to accomodate Pogba and other players but we lack one or two players, in important roles.
Figure a mix of Blind/Herrera with Mata as a #10 is the most complimentary to Pogba. Blind & Herrera are very tactically astute & are very good passers, with Herrera better at the quicker, close-in interplay while Blind can be more expansive with longer passes. Either would shield the defense just fine.
Honestly, in a 2 man midfield, a younger Carrick would've been the best fit, as he's more than comfortable being the deep lying playmaker & defensive shield, but his time at a top level club is limited. Or even a fit Bastian (that ship has sailed & run aground, though). Doesn't seem Jose really rates Schneiderlin at this point as well, so it will have to be Blind/Herrera plus a bit of Carrick.
Fellaini does serve a purpose, but I'm not sure if the Zorya game fit his profile. They were going to sit back all day and needed more incisive play from his spot. We did drill in a lot of crosses, but if he's playing DM, he ain't much use in the box, as he's supposed to back up Pogba, not be ahead of him.
Honestly, in a 2 man midfield, a younger Carrick would've been the best fit, as he's more than comfortable being the deep lying playmaker & defensive shield, but his time at a top level club is limited. Or even a fit Bastian (that ship has sailed & run aground, though). Doesn't seem Jose really rates Schneiderlin at this point as well, so it will have to be Blind/Herrera plus a bit of Carrick.
Fellaini does serve a purpose, but I'm not sure if the Zorya game fit his profile. They were going to sit back all day and needed more incisive play from his spot. We did drill in a lot of crosses, but if he's playing DM, he ain't much use in the box, as he's supposed to back up Pogba, not be ahead of him.
Good points, well made.
I'm still fecking depressed we've spent all this time and money re-vamping our squad post-Fergie and we're still talking about missing pieces in the jigsaw. That's a slippery slope to the Arsenal/Liverpool refrain of the last couple of decades. "We'll win the title next season if we sign blah blah blah..." Rinse and repeat.
Absolutely. We can all try and put the most positive possible spin on any given situation, such as spending £90m on a player and finding he is only a modest improvement on what you had there before (early days early days early days), but the level of optimism required to put a positive spin on our transfer activity since SAF retired is well beyond the border with delusion.
Ah well, next year will be our year.
I think with all our players fit this is our strongest side a 4-3-3 with Mkhitaryan leading the point of the midfield 3 he is by far our best creative player, Pogba midfield left just as he played at Juventus and Herrera midfield right with his main duty to break down attacks and keep possession moving forward.