True. On the basis of yesterday's performance we could easily have lost the game 3-0 and we wouldn't have felt hard done by. Scraping draws and one-goal wins isn't indicative of a turnaround in performance.
Who still has faith in The Philosophy? / LVG Supporters' Thread
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I'm not disagreeing here.
But does this mean that our only aim is to finish in 4th place and get into the first round of the CL?
If this is the case, then our standards have fallen.
Also why are these threads about faith in the 'philosophy' coming after yesterday's result?
If anything what we saw was the complete opposite of what LVG has been preaching about how he wants to control the match, dominate possession so that the other team cannot score if they don't have enough of the ball and how we should be more fluid and play out from the back.
What we actually saw was conceding possession and lots of chances and half chances, hoofing the ball, completely lackluster in the final third and lucky to score from our only attempt on target.
Yet people come out with 'philosophy is finally taking shape' kind of statements.
You guys are living in a Football Manager cloud cuckoo land if you think what LVG did after taking over from dithering Dave was a cakewalk...
You are coming in to act as the figurehead and leader of a global brand that has just lost its most successful boss of all time and then stumbled to its worst annual performance for decades.
You have to take a group of employees (extremely highly paid, highly strung and mostly highly demoralised if half the dressing room stories from Moyesy's reign are half-true), sort out the deadwood, rebuild their confidence and instil a new approach, all whilst keeping up a minimum standard of performance.
All this against a back-drop of opponents who all now fancy their chances and also have unprecedented resources themselves to improve their own squads in what is widely recognised as the most competitive professional football league in the world.
In those terms LVG's performance has been a success. Not a run-away, unqualified success but certainly an acceptable level of performance at this stage of his tenure.
He himself has said the final ingredient are game-changing forwards. Di Maria was the first attempt. Martial could be it in a year or two (LVG stated he was 'buying him for the next manager') and he has been unlucky enough that first RVP, then Falcao and now Rooney seem to be on the decline.
With a bit more luck with injuries more consistency and confidence will come. With the potential signing of one galactico the final piece of the puzzle could be in place.
Either we act with some patience and maturity or we dance to the knee-jerk, short-term hysteria of the football media's agenda.............. I know which side I am on "fatmen"!
Well I think it is the minimum requirement, which is different.
Our aim is still to buy the best players in the world and to compete at the highest level with the best teams in the world but that is not going to happen overnight and even under SAF our success on this measure was cyclical...
Sorry, you lost me when you made the Football Manager reference. Basically right at the start of your post.
I'm sure the rest of it is fantastic, though.
Considering everything that went on since he took over, i'm not convinced that his philosophy is working.
There was a time when i refused to compare him to moyes because i was convinced we're improving, but was top 4 after spending plenty of money an out of reach target for moyes in his second season? is crashing out of the CL group stage and being out of the top 4 by jan a sign of improvement?
If we're being totally honest, most good, not top, just good managers in the game should be capable of achieving the same standards, and some would get us to play better football in the process.
The truth is his philosophy has failed, and every time we witness any improvement it's a direct result of him abandoning his philosophy.
I'm over the moon with the win against liverpool, but that wasn't a comeback of any sorts, we were poor, we scored with the first shot on target and only de gea made sure we weren't 4-0 behind by then, that's the truth.
There was a time when i refused to compare him to moyes because i was convinced we're improving, but was top 4 after spending plenty of money an out of reach target for moyes in his second season? is crashing out of the CL group stage and being out of the top 4 by jan a sign of improvement?
If we're being totally honest, most good, not top, just good managers in the game should be capable of achieving the same standards, and some would get us to play better football in the process.
The truth is his philosophy has failed, and every time we witness any improvement it's a direct result of him abandoning his philosophy.
I'm over the moon with the win against liverpool, but that wasn't a comeback of any sorts, we were poor, we scored with the first shot on target and only de gea made sure we weren't 4-0 behind by then, that's the truth.
Any plan that relies on signing galacticos is ultimately flawed
Too many excuses are made for LvG IMO. We can all, but hope, he manages to turn it around this season but result aside, that performance yesterday should really not have filled anyone with confidence.
He's done a brilliant job of keeping us out of the relegation zone. Only a genius like LVG could manage that with the conference level team we've got...
How anybody can honestly turn round and say that this charlatan of a manager has done a good job is beyond me.
How anybody can honestly turn round and say that this charlatan of a manager has done a good job is beyond me.
The philosophy is bullshit, it's basically an overly convoluted set of demands that requires several elite forwards to be a success.
Good to know, I'll pencil us in to being relevant in a title race for the 2019-20 season when the farce will draw to a close and we get in a proper manager.
Good to know, I'll pencil us in to being relevant in a title race for the 2019-20 season when the farce will draw to a close and we get in a proper manager.
I still don't know what the 'philosophy' is. If the last 4 games are supposed to be a sign of it working then definitely not. We'll lose far more games than we'll win playing like yesterday.
I can see what he's trying to do and I can dig it
Completely agree!
It think he has taken us As far as he can, it was a tough job he took over and event though I think he has got a lot wrong he has at least made decisions and done something unlike the clown he took over from.
I see little evidence of any real philosophy I just think he has chosen to cover for the deficiencies in the team by playing a high possession, low risk and rigid style. I don't think he has implemented anything ground breaking or particularly difficult in terms of our style of play.
For me the best step forward for the club is to move him on in the summer because I don't think we will see big steps forward next season and he is leaving anyway so I really see no reason for him to stay beyond this season.
I see little evidence of any real philosophy I just think he has chosen to cover for the deficiencies in the team by playing a high possession, low risk and rigid style. I don't think he has implemented anything ground breaking or particularly difficult in terms of our style of play.
For me the best step forward for the club is to move him on in the summer because I don't think we will see big steps forward next season and he is leaving anyway so I really see no reason for him to stay beyond this season.
I may have been proved wrong on Saturday but I think it filled our players with good deal of confidence that one. They dug in deep and to be honest, improved after terrible first half. Much has been said about De Gea 'saving us' but apart from Can and Henderson's chances what did Liverpool create?
We withstood the pressure and scored the only goal to win it. I'd say such a gritted performance will do much more to the players' confidence than a gung-ho 3-3 against Newcastle.
It's fine. LvG is doing great. All we need are two world class footballers to win the league. Easy.
There are one of two here that would seem to be ready to defend whatever bullshit he does and it is odd to me that some folks can be that dense.
I think one world class player may even do the trick. I wouldn't say he is doing great, results wise he needs to do better than December but in terms of building a team and stabilizing the club he has done well.
A couple of world class players and the foundations have been laid.
I like LVG the man, but as a manager he has underperformed this season. We're fifth favourite with the bookies to finish top 4 and our football is beyond dire having invested in the summer. By any measure, it is a worse season than last. We've even lost the pattern of play we hit upon in the second half of last season. The problem LVG has is that he doesn't have the time to take steps backward when realistically the longest he's likely to be in post is another 18 months. All that said, I obviously want to feel more positive about the club our football and our manager, I am not a scouser for fecks sake, and would happily jump on-board bandwagon Louis if he can turn things around on the pitch.
I'm starting to believe the philosophy has been fully implemented and this is the best we'll get from LvG. It's going to be a long 3 years.
We had one world class player in Di Maria and LvG didn't know how to get the best of him. I'm afraid more talent will not change the side much.
We had one world class player in Di Maria and LvG didn't know how to get the best of him. I'm afraid more talent will not change the side much.
If we had Messi, Aguero and Pogba we'd be in top 4 easily.
I agree about the confidence bit, but who needs to take responsibility for the players' confidence been at a seemingly, all time low? Moyes was blamed when LvG started for players being low on confidence. LvG got his objective of a 4th place finish last season - "thereby building the players confidence back up". He added a lot more of his players to the squad.
So what excuse are there this season for the players' confidence being so low and in dire need of a build up? It was all those shitty results and performances and no amount of injuries should excuse those performances and LvG, IMO. He's almost always said and proven that he is a caution first type manager - so the dull football, as long as we're not "giving chances away" seems acceptable to him.
But like I said, it would be mint if he could turn it around and prove everyone (myself included) wrong. But a "gritty" performance against a poor Pool side, missing 2 of their best attackers (and players) where our only shot on target was the 80-odd minute winner....come on mate.
Anyway, I digress. I don't want to sound too miserable after a win at Anfield. Let me enjoy this week and not look for the negatives!
Ah, yes – the Dave angle. Good story, that. Through his monumental incompetence he destroyed the club – in the space of, what, ten months. Absolutely demolished the entire organization, crushed the confidence of players who weren't even signed at the time – no wonder LVG has trouble having us play like a proper team, it's all down to a lack of low fat chips.
You're missing the point. Most of us are well aware of the post-Fergie syndrome. We never expected miracles from LVG. What we expected was an undeniable, obvious and visible upgrade on Moyes. Results wise, yes – but performance wise more than anything.
A limp-dicked, utterly unconvincing display of performances resulting in a position which is currently tenable by a hair's breadth. That's the summary of LVG's United career. He's done nothing to impress anyone. Not a bloody thing.
And if I were you I'd take it easy on the “maturity” jibes. You're not addressing children here, and your calls for patience and so forth have been cried before in exactly the same condescending fashion – it's getting old, to put it mildly.
I personally like him as a coach and what he believes the game is about. He can be frustrating to watch as a fan because he hardly seem to be doing things as expected or the easy way but at the end of the day you always know he had his his own script. Cant stand his personality but his job is to pass on his knowledge anyway, so it doesn't matter to me how arrogant, obnoxious, rude or condescending he is as long as the players he's choose to work with can gain from it I with him.
The football club is not a playground, it's a place of work and players should be treating as one. Most people have at some point worked under a task master and have more than gained from it.
The football club is not a playground, it's a place of work and players should be treating as one. Most people have at some point worked under a task master and have more than gained from it.
If we finish the season strong and finish top 3 for example, not far off the title... I'd let him see out last year of his contract.
Can't believe people actually think he's doing a good job, he's improved a few few things but the rest just has been talk from him, as he's been very unable to implement his "philosophy" into our club.
ADM again. As far as I can remember he did well at United and got injured. Couldn't get back into the starting 11 because his back up was doing well in. How is he at fault for Young putting in a shift good enough to keep ADM waiting.
Even if he was not a fan of ADM before his injury he kept playing him. Most people seem to forget that main structural prep is done in preseason and him being a late arrival it was his responsibility to conform, not the whole team. Players have responsibilities to the team too, just like the manager has to the whole team.
But isn't that because you, and many others, have made the decision that because we passed a bit quicker and there was a bit more movement, that means LVG loosened the reigns. When it could actually be there was more space so it was exploited. Pretty confident that if a team parks the bus we will have the same problem breaking them down. It can't be a coincidence that we had more room in the last 4 PL games because the opposition didn't park the bus.
Sorry, you lost me at "Sorry, you lost me"...
Agreed - to be clearer it could be a top striker / goal scoring winger or a 'galactic' but it should not be beyond United & LVG to unearth one in the summer and that could be transformative...
I'm not trying to be facile : The point was that anyone taking over from Fergie had a monumental task on their hands and in some ways Moyesy's tenure made it harder not easier (in terms of the rapid dismantling of the winning mentality, the effect of the United aura on other teams etc.)...
I didn't mean to imply either that LVG critics are immature but rather that a lot of the media stuff is very short-termist, given the back drop he is operating against, and that a more measured assessment of the big picture should give the current manager some credit for what has been achieved.
You only have to look at what Pochettino has done at Spurs during the same time frame without throwing shed loads of money around to see LVG has not done a good job.
We play shite football and he has miss-managed the squad, he has done a few good things but overall he has failed.
The revisionism is huge, just refer back to his original interviews and targets when he first joined, massive fail.
One of the BIGGEST things he was supposed to do was bring back attacking/attractive football. FAIL.
We play shite football and he has miss-managed the squad, he has done a few good things but overall he has failed.
The revisionism is huge, just refer back to his original interviews and targets when he first joined, massive fail.
One of the BIGGEST things he was supposed to do was bring back attacking/attractive football. FAIL.
I've been defending him on here to the knee-jerk brigade for months.
Can't wait for us to win the League and rub it in everyone's face
I suspect you might be waiting an awful long time.
Had lofty expectations for LvG after the Moyes debacle and he's been massively mediocre/not good enough. It's particularly infuriating when the likes of Pochettino, Ranieri et al have flourished at their clubs. Rooney, Memphis, Fellaini, Mata et al aren't the problem. Its the manager. Give them a manager who can get the team to punch above its weight and watch them go.
I'd be happy with a manager who can get the team to punch at its weight, never mind above it.
When we appointed lvg, I didn't expect him to win the title for two more seasons. For a squad that dominated it's way to the finish under fergie and stumbled to a 7th place finish right after, it is a hard ask to get back up quickly. What I did expect was a victory in the fa cup or carling cup that would slowly restore the confidence in our players. Our players still lack the confidence and vigour that runs through a side which believes it can win titles. It isn't easy to get to that stage. I won't be surprised if we struggle for a while under pep or even Jose for that matter. If we can huff and puff to a carling cup win this season, that would give us something to build on in the coming seasons.