Who still has faith in The Philosophy? / LVG Supporters' Thread

Yes for Xavi, no for Iniesta. Iniesta played 7 times under Van Gaal. That is as much as Pogba did under Sir Alex.
It's the same with Alaba. Van Gaal gave him 3 starts in 09/10 five months after Alaba had already debuted in the nationalteam. Then totally ignored Alaba after one bad game against Frankfurt for the rest of the year and send him to the 2nd team at the start of the 10/11 season while giving Contento, another and clearly inferior academy player, the regular leftback spot. Alaba complained, forced a loan deal against van Gaal's wish in January, instantly started at Hoffenheim during his 6 months there and then became a regular starter under Heynckes the following season.

Yet, Santiago makes it sound as if van Gaal deserves massive credit for the 3 starts and 6 games as a sub, totally ignoring how he ignored him and clearly prefered Contento over him. It's as stupid as giving Klinsmann massive credit for Müller because he gave him his debut in the league and the CL.
 
He played some players who went to become all time greats. Give him a medal!

It's such a weird defence. Like when people praise him because Bayern became more dominant after he left...which should surely be a point against LVG, because his squad was quite clearly good enough to be successful in 2010/11 and he failed.
 
Your acting like Guardiola was the first sign of success. What about rijkaard? Was his team a flop? The mix of Ronaldinho & foreign players mixed with the Spanish youngsters (who BTW pay most their blessings to van goal & not rojkaard)?

What we saw at Barcelona was the finished product with the likes of Xavi & iniesta, payola & valdes at their prime. All having help from van goal 10 god damn years ago.

It's you who asked me about Guardiola and Enriques :lol:

It's you who's acting like the success of current Barcelona or Bayern teams or, deary me, German and Spanish NT teams has roots in LVG's doings. It doesn't. You can believe all you want in that but it doesn't make it true. You can also pretend that you're seeing things that the others are not, that great things are happening behind the closed doors and that they'll be visible in next X years but again, it doesn't make it true nor does it make you look smarter than the most. Just because you run around shouting that the Earth is actually flat and call others idiots it doesn't automatically make it true.

I wonder if in, say, 10 years people will be praising Moyes for Januzaj's great development. Mind you that Januzaj actually played feckloads of games under him.
 
He made a good signing, a couple of good promotions and converted Schweiny.
Even that's only half the story. Heynckes played Schweini next to van Bommel in CM when he took over from Klinsmann as interim manager for the last 5 games. Van Gaal pushed Schweinsteiger back to the wing in pre-season and had to be convinced by the players to move him back. Obviously Schweinsteiger established himself as a CM under van Gaal and van Gaal deserves credit for that. But it's often portrayed as that genius move that no one but van Gaal would have done and that's frankly bollocks.
 
It's the same with Alaba. Van Gaal gave him 3 starts in 09/10 five months after Alaba had already debuted in the nationalteam. Then totally ignored Alaba after one bad game against Frankfurt for the rest of the year and send him to the 2nd team at the start of the 10/11 season while giving Contento, another and clearly inferior academy player, the regular leftback spot. Alaba complained, forced a loan deal against van Gaal's wish in January, instantly started at Hoffenheim during his 6 months there and then became a regular starter under Heynckes the following season.

Yet, Santiago makes it sound as if van Gaal deserves massive credit for the 3 starts and 6 games as a sub, totally ignoring how he ignored him and clearly prefered Contento over him. It's as stupid as giving Klinsmann massive credit for Müller because he gave him his debut in the league and the CL.
Yep. I meant more Muller (for whom IMO Van Gaal really played a role) and Badstuber who played a lot under LVG but because of injuries couldn't contribute to Bayern's recent success.

Alaba was promoted but Van Gaal didn't have much to do with his developments.

To be fair, it is all fine considering that people gave him credit for Kroos in the past too. He really loaned him and then when LVG left, Kroos returned and became a world class player, but it was all because of Van Gaal.

The Van Gaal religion is even stronger than Moyes one.
 
He had feck all influence and is wank. WANK WANK WANK. How you can defend that dross LvG atm is beyond me.

Because he is playing kids & the majority of fans would not be happy until we start breathing suceess. It won't just click like that.

If it keeps happening, don't you think maybe LVG is then lacking somewhat, and needs other managers to get the best out of the promising squads he previously worked with? just a thought. You give the impression that Van Gaal is the worlds best concert hype man. You mentioned these players have been philosophised to the benefit of their future manager (Januzaj, Shaw, Perreira, Memphis, Martial, CBJ. So Januzaj has been trained for barely a season under van gaal and is worse off, Shaw has been trained with him for 1 season and is injured after briefly getting back his previous Southampton form hence his 30 million cost. Pereira has been given no game time to develop, Memphis is worse (although he is adjusting to a new league), Martial is Martial, CBJ has only just come up from the youths. I don't see how they have been philosophised in a positive way. Most logical attibute to United future success is the players adopting the ideas and philosophies of the new coach rather than Van Gaal's debilitating nonsense. This is akin to gifting Van Gaal credit for Spain and Germany's world cup wins.

Of course I think this team will need a new manager for success. Isn't it the Bayern director who said the best thing we did was hiring him & then sacking him?

The only reason I support van gaal is because
A) he influenced key players & arguably some of the best ever
B) he has also influenced some of the best managers ever
C) the similarities between clubs like us & Bayern & Barcelona are so close in terms of our balance between success & youth.
D) because of that, van goal has been fired due to his lack of success in particular seasons arguably playing with a mix of youngsters & average players like mendieta. He normally always plays with a team that has yet to click & in finding of its own best players.
E) the reason I am calmer than most is because if by the odd percentage that someone of authority ie. Woodward has a similar understandings of van goals strengths & weaknesses..he will see that the best possible thing to do is keep van goal purely for the kids sake. Then buy the right players & the players that kids can learn from instead of some of the older dross van goal ends up buying.

We do need another manager because the philosophy does not work as Plan A- it works as plan B & no matter how frequent Robben cuts in or Xavi makes simple passes - the fact that the players have the ability to dictate their own game makes them near impossible to read & play against ( IMO the reason he does not get out his seat)

We can fire him now & be as wonderful Barcelona & Bayern. Be just a bit patient with not only the absolute youth we are playing as well as LVG 's numptiness in some of his abilities for the present - it could make the youngsters stronger & better meaning we should have an absolute bright future in the progress.
 
Yep. I meant more Muller (for whom IMO Van Gaal really played a role) and Badstuber who played a lot under LVG but because of injuries couldn't contribute to Bayern's recent success.
Yeah, I have nothing but praise for van Gaal's influence on both Müller and Badstuber. No doubt about that. Credit where it's due and all that.

To be fair, it is all fine considering that people gave him credit for Kroos in the past too. He really loaned him and then when LVG left, Kroos returned and became a world class player, but it was all because of Van Gaal.
Kroos already left under Klinsmann, but yes, fully agree with the point. Heynckes deserves pretty much all the credit for Kroos' early development. He became a quality midfielder under Heynckes at Leverkusen, which also earned him the place in the World Cup squad. Then van Gaal totally messed him up, had no idea how to use him until Heynckes took over and made him a star. I still think the most hilarious claim was one of the van Gaal apologists claiming that Neuer would not be the goalkeeper he is today without van Gaal's influence. Not sure who it was, but that was truely disturbing.
 
It's the same with Alaba. Van Gaal gave him 3 starts in 09/10 five months after Alaba had already debuted in the nationalteam. Then totally ignored Alaba after one bad game against Frankfurt for the rest of the year and send him to the 2nd team at the start of the 10/11 season while giving Contento, another and clearly inferior academy player, the regular leftback spot. Alaba complained, forced a loan deal against van Gaal's wish in January, instantly started at Hoffenheim during his 6 months there and then became a regular starter under Heynckes the following season.

Yet, Santiago makes it sound as if van Gaal deserves massive credit for the 3 starts and 6 games as a sub, totally ignoring how he ignored him and clearly prefered Contento over him. It's as stupid as giving Klinsmann massive credit for Müller because he gave him his debut in the league and the CL.

http://www.insidefutbol.com/2015/02...d-pep-guardiola-shaped-me-david-alaba/188949/
 
Yeah, I have nothing but praise for van Gaal's influence on both Müller and Badstuber. No doubt about that. Credit where it's due and all that.


Kroos already left under Klinsmann, but yes, fully agree with the point. Heynckes deserves pretty much all the credit for Kroos' early development. He became a quality midfielder under Heynckes at Leverkusen, which also earned him the place in the World Cup squad. Then van Gaal totally messed him up, had no idea how to use him until Heynckes took over and made him a star. I still think the most hilarious claim was one of the van Gaal apologists claiming that Neuer would not be the goalkeeper he is today without van Gaal's influence. Not sure who it was, but that was truely disturbing.
Gosh, that is even more insane than the already ridiculous Kroos one. He didn't even want Neuer and managed him as much as I did.
 
Because he is playing kids & the majority of fans would not be happy until we start breathing suceess. It won't just click like that.
I don't give a shit whether he's using kids or not, as the fact is, he is in this position because HE decided to sell all our players.
 
Yeah, I have nothing but praise for van Gaal's influence on both Müller and Badstuber. No doubt about that. Credit where it's due and all that.


Kroos already left under Klinsmann, but yes, fully agree with the point. Heynckes deserves pretty much all the credit for Kroos' early development. He became a quality midfielder under Heynckes at Leverkusen, which also earned him the place in the World Cup squad. Then van Gaal totally messed him up, had no idea how to use him until Heynckes took over and made him a star. I still think the most hilarious claim was one of the van Gaal apologists claiming that Neuer would not be the goalkeeper he is today without van Gaal's influence. Not sure who it was, but that was truely disturbing.

Dude, it was clearly next level motivational skills. Picking an unwinnable fight with Hoeneß, because he rather wanted the mediocre youth keeper surely must've burned any kind of arrogance or complacency out of Neuer and thus he made him the player he is today.
 
Well, yeah. What do you expect him to say? Van Gaal gave him his debut and he trained the first few months under him. So what? No one is denying that? You constantly make it sound as if the player wouldn't have made it if not for van Gaal, which is stupid. I don't give Magath credit for Bayern's success today either even though he clearly played a much, much bigger role in Lahm's development than van Gaal in Alaba's.
 
Because he is playing kids & the majority of fans would not be happy until we start breathing suceess. It won't just click like that.



Of course I think this team will need a new manager for success. Isn't it the Bayern director who said the best thing we did was hiring him & then sacking him?

The only reason I support van gaal is because
A) he influenced key players & arguably some of the best ever
B) he has also influenced some of the best managers ever
C) the similarities between clubs like us & Bayern & Barcelona are so close in terms of our balance between success & youth.
D) because of that, van goal has been fired due to his lack of success in particular seasons arguably playing with a mix of youngsters & average players like mendieta. He normally always plays with a team that has yet to click & in finding of its own best players.
E) the reason I am calmer than most is because if by the odd percentage that someone of authority ie. Woodward has a similar understandings of van goals strengths & weaknesses..he will see that the best possible thing to do is keep van goal purely for the kids sake. Then buy the right players & the players that kids can learn from instead of some of the older dross van goal ends up buying.

We do need another manager because the philosophy does not work as Plan A- it works as plan B & no matter how frequent Robben cuts in or Xavi makes simple passes - the fact that the players have the ability to dictate their own game makes them near impossible to read & play against ( IMO the reason he does not get out his seat)

We can fire him now & be as wonderful Barcelona & Bayern. Be just a bit patient with not only the absolute youth we are playing as well as LVG 's numptiness in some of his abilities for the present - it could make the youngsters stronger & better meaning we should have an absolute bright future in the progress.
A) he has also negatively influenced key players and some of the best ever who detested playing under him.

D) So why then did he start off with Success at Bayern and collapse the very next season? was that because of a mix of youngsters and average players? I don't see how he normally plays with a team that is yet to click & in finding his own best players. Look at some of his Barca squads. The 2002 squad in particular weren't full of average players CLEARLY. And as previously mentioned if Bayern were yet to click and find their best players, how were they initially so successful?

2002/03 squad:

Michael Reiziger
Frank de Boer
Patrik Andersson
Carles Puyol (24 years old)
Javier Saviola
Phillip Cocu
Patrick Kluivert
Juan Román Riquelme
Marc Overmars
Gaizka Mendieta
Juan Pablo Sorín
Luis Enrique

1998 squad:
Albert Ferrer
Josep Guardiola
Fernando Couto
Luís Figo
Hristo Stoichkov

Sonny Anderson
Giovanni
Rivaldo
Christophe Dugarry
Winston Bogarde
Miguel Ángel Nadal
Luis Enrique
Michael Reiziger
Iván de la Peña


But all in all I admire your tenacity
 
@Dr. Funkenstein

We agree that this particular squad doesn't help LvG implement his vision of how possession football should be performed at top level. In that sense, the -out of bounds- criticism and all the cursing and swearing that accompany posts with his name lately is unfair. I, myself, have written on this forum that even the best magician in the world can't pull a rabbit out of the hat, if there's not a rabbit in the hat in the first place.

But i disagree with you on the "ceiling" you set for this particular squad. I don't believe Rooney will ever be able to play as the lone forward in a possession based side. His poor first touch and hold play that lead him to pass the ball right back the moment he receives it, his declining physicality that doesn't allow him to play with his back on goal and his inability to link well with others in tight areas don't leave much hope for improvement. What he still has is raw pace, as shown in goals we've scored on the counter this season or last year against Arsenal. Mata also looks too soft when under pressure, he always looks to move to the side or drop deeper just to find space and time to turn around. Herrera had two good spells, one towards the end of last season and just before he got injured this season. He's been shifted from #8 to #10 and vice versa because he can't operate as a second forward in the hole and he doesn't possess the concentration and the positional ability to be trusted with a deeper role on a permanent basis. Young should be commended for his work rate on the pitch but he still is an inside winger who doesn't step into the opposition box. That's not good enough for a possession side.

I could go on with other players too but that's not the point. My point is that it's not a matter of two or three good additions. This team has still a long way to go until it becomes a good possession side. So, maybe changing direction and choosing a manager that teaches a more direct style of football might be the best way to go forward.

You talk about laying the foundations of good passing but i ask where's any proof of that? We look dominant and in control only against very poor sides and only in our home games. Had we played Ajax yesterday, they would have outplayed us again, just as Stoke, Swansea and other midtable clubs have already done. Where was that neat passing in the two games against Wolsfburg? We're 20 months into LvG's reign here, being able to force our tempo and control games throughout the 90 minutes against the majority of English clubs and a nothing Danish club should be the rule by now. But it's not and that's a problem, at least imo, that can't be swept under the rag with some generic talk about laying foundations or by remembering LvG's past glory days.

I admit i would be more patient, if i had seen the willingness to change things. If i had seen the radical LvG of old who would never compromise. But it was his choice not only to keep Rooney but also eliminate all competition for the forward role. It was his choice to rely on Mata, it was his choice to have such a thin squad. If i can see that Rooney, Mata, Herrera and others struggle to adapt, i'm sure he sees it too. But he chose to do nothing and keep everyone happy and now we are where we are.

I repeat if we were doing an Arsenal, guaranteed top four with signs of a clear identity on the pitch lots of youth playing, LvG would be fine. He was last season, the mood here was terrific and everyone waited for the new season. Even until December the majority of the Caf, myself included, was still on his corner.

But he's not being paid 7.5 million pounds p/s to do passing drills at Carrington. He's job is to inculcate in his players a fighting spirit and a winning attitude through his philosophy, a fighting spirit and a winning attitude that will eventually lead to team character. That's why the put Giggs beside him in the first place, so that he could take over without having to do this by himself. It's a difficult task for sure but that doesn't exonerate LvG from the mess he's created. And in order to create a team with a distinct identity on the pitch your players must have confidence in themselves. But in order for that to happen, they need to win football matches. If <insert any name> comes here and achieves that, it will have nothing to do with LvG. Sorry, that's how i see it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: golden_blunder
@Dr. Funkenstein

We agree that this particular squad doesn't help LvG implement his vision of how possession football should be performed at top level. In that sense, the -out of bounds- criticism and all the cursing and swearing that accompany posts with his name lately is unfair. I, myself, have written on this forum that even the best magician in the world can't pull a rabbit out of the hat, if there's not a rabbit in the hat in the first place.

But i disagree with you on the "ceiling" you set for this particular squad. I don't believe Rooney will ever be able to play as the lone forward in a possession based side. His poor first touch and hold play that lead him to pass the ball right back the moment he receives it, his declining physicality that doesn't allow him to play with his back on goal and his inability to link well with others in tight areas don't leave much hope for improvement. What he still has is raw pace, as shown in goals we've scored on the counter this season or last year against Arsenal. Mata also looks too soft when under pressure, he always looks to move to the side or drop deeper just to find space and time to turn around. Herrera had two good spells, one towards the end of last season and just before he got injured this season. He's been shifted from #8 to #10 and vice versa because he can't operate as a second forward in the hole and he doesn't possess the concentration and the positional ability to be trusted with a deeper role on a permanent basis. Young should be commended for his work rate on the pitch but he still is an inside winger who doesn't step into the opposition box. That's not good enough for a possession side.
I mentioned Young not because he has the required class, but because he is an example of a player who has the required technique to move the ball around well enough to make the possession game give them an advantage. Rooney doesnt have that technique consistently, but he's closer to the required class and could profit from it in that respect. Ideally the centre forward would be good with his back to goal but it's not a necessity.

I could go on with other players too but that's not the point. My point is that it's not a matter of two or three good additions. This team has still a long way to go until it becomes a good possession side. So, maybe changing direction and choosing a manager that teaches a more direct style of football might be the best way to go forward.

You talk about laying the foundations of good passing but i ask where's any proof of that? We look dominant and in control only against very poor sides and only in our home games. Had we played Ajax yesterday, they would have outplayed us again, just as Stoke, Swansea and other midtable clubs have already done. Where was that neat passing in the two games against Wolsfburg? We're 20 months into LvG's reign here, being able to force our tempo and control games throughout the 90 minutes against the majority of English clubs and a nothing Danish club should be the rule by now. But it's not and that's a problem, at least imo, that can't be swept under the rag with some generic talk about laying foundations or by remembering LvG's past glory days.
We've also seen a few quite impressive performances last season and in the recent Chelsea game, it was just a few details away from a convincing 0-3 away win, against better players, with 70% possession. It's not been completely out of reach, it wasn't that far off. I think it's the technical ability all around the squad that has a tipping point, and with injuries and form, it tips the wrong way more often than not. Class is also an issue, but doesn't have that tipping point.

Honestly I don't think Ajax would have outplayed United yesterday with the squad from back then, and not with a reasonable part of the current squad fit. And I do think there are developments that are useful to certain different but related styles. Herrera for example use to move towards the ball to help a teammate under pressure, crowding the area and just moving the problem on to himself. Now he moves away from the ball so he can recieve the ball in space. Things like that are also important for Dortmund's or Atletico's style. Just as a compact midfield, lines close and in sync, also for pressing it doesn't matter that much if it's high pressing, gegenpressing or side pressing.

I admit i would be more patient, if i had seen the willingness to change things. If i had seen the radical LvG of old who would never compromise. But it was his choice not only to keep Rooney but also eliminate all competition for the forward role. It was his choice to rely on Mata, it was his choice to have such a thin squad. If i can see that Rooney, Mata, Herrera and others struggle to adapt, i'm sure he sees it too. But he chose to do nothing and keep everyone happy and now we are where we are.
Things have changed, players didn't take enough risks and were playing like a Guardiola team but without the individual class in the beginning of the season. They have been taking more risks, playing at higher pace testing their technical ability, they made the final third a bit longer too, and they improved on the counter attacking.

I repeat if we were doing an Arsenal, guaranteed top four with signs of a clear identity on the pitch lots of youth playing, LvG would be fine. He was last season, the mood here was terrific and everyone waited for the new season. Even until December the majority of the Caf, myself included, was still on his corner.
The mood wasn't terrific because of the expectation of another top 4. I think that's the same problem at any very successfull club, after bad seasons the fans can be desperate for a turnaround, but they lack the patience for it. As soon as the worst is over they expect the best again, immediately, straight from shit creek into the rose garden.

But he's not being paid 7.5 million pounds p/s to do passing drills at Carrington. He's job is to inculcate in his players a fighting spirit and a winning attitude through his philosophy, a fighting spirit and a winning attitude that will eventually lead to team character. That's why the put Giggs beside him in the first place, so that he could take over without having to do this by himself. It's a difficult task for sure but that doesn't exonerate LvG from the mess he's created. And in order to create a team with a distinct identity on the pitch your players must have confidence in themselves. But in order for that to happen, they need to win football matches. If <insert any name> comes here and achieves that, it will have nothing to do with LvG. Sorry, that's how i see it.
My point is that he should not start all over again, but will achieve that sooner (and we both know time is not on our side) whe he takes it from here, in his own way. LvG might have messed up the season, I don't think he made mess of the club. The cure for low confidence is known, the injured players are hardly affected, he has improved a lot of players, he has signed a few players that will be useful in the future, they have learned a lot about positioning. The lack of results is not a reason to discard all the work done.
 
@Dr. Funkenstein

Fair enough, i wish i could be as optimistic as you are simply because i have a lot of respect for the man. Watching his 92-96 Ajax side was the first time i felt i should start digging into football analysis and paying more attention to football matches.

I'll repeat though that the very few and far between good performances can't make up for the many bad ones and our inconsistency and our inability to impose our game on much lesser opponents. There are many excuses but, almost two seasons into his time at OT, this shouldn't be the case.

I'm willing to agree with your comments on the work he's done. After all, all those posters who kept saying that Moyes left behind a barren wasteland (which is true), should acknowledge the improvement on positioning, defensive transition, the ability to play a high defensive line and the development of certain individual players.

But there's no way i'm going to accept that a top four finish is... too much to ask. Not of LvG but of any manager who sits on the edge of our bench. And the board is partially responsible for that. He has the freedom to try and implement his philosophy into these players but not at any cost. There always has to be a bare minimum of goals and second chances should be given when there's actual proof that the formula can be successful.

There are lots of people who are laughing at Real Madrid because of the way they treat their managers: "You didn't deliver the CL, off with your head". We are slowly becoming the laughing stock of world football but for the exactly opposite reason: "It doesn't matter how bad you're doing, we can always set the bar lower as long as you claim that you're building a team for the future".

Having said that, i do hope that you're right and i'm wrong.
 
@Dr. Funkenstein

Fair enough, i wish i could be as optimistic as you are simply because i have a lot of respect for the man. Watching his 92-96 Ajax side was the first time i felt i should start digging into football analysis and paying more attention to football matches.

I'll repeat though that the very few and far between good performances can't make up for the many bad ones and our inconsistency and our inability to impose our game on much lesser opponents. There are many excuses but, almost two seasons into his time at OT, this shouldn't be the case.
I agree. I don't think I'm optimistic. The last time I was optimistic was during the Chelsea match, but after they messed that up and couldn't even take the good play to the next match in Sunderland, I lost hope of the consistency getting there. I'm just pointing out that he came close to achieving what he set out to do and that it's just a mix of injuries, bad luck and lack of players with a certain character that made it tilt. But I don't see it tilting the other way again, too low on confidence, too many injured players the coming month, too negative the atmosphere and too many fall backs for the players to get real confidence from a good game.

I'm willing to agree with your comments on the work he's done. After all, all those posters who kept saying that Moyes left behind a barren wasteland (which is true), should acknowledge the improvement on positioning, defensive transition, the ability to play a high defensive line and the development of certain individual players.

But there's no way i'm going to accept that a top four finish is... too much to ask. Not of LvG but of any manager who sits on the edge of our bench. And the board is partially responsible for that. He has the freedom to try and implement his philosophy into these players but not at any cost. There always has to be a bare minimum of goals and second chances should be given when there's actual proof that the formula can be successful.

There are lots of people who are laughing at Real Madrid because of the way they treat their managers: "You didn't deliver the CL, off with your head". We are slowly becoming the laughing stock of world football but for the exactly opposite reason: "It doesn't matter how bad you're doing, we can always set the bar lower as long as you claim that you're building a team for the future".

Having said that, i do hope that you're right and i'm wrong.
It's about who has the last laugh, I don't think a club should be a laughing stock for paying the price now for future success. I think that's very sensible, but I'm afraid that's not the case here anymore. That would take a man in charge who has football expertise and who has other options, Ï'm afraid Woody is waiting rather than choosing to pay that price, because he has no other options and just hopes the price paid and future success are related. I just hope the next manager is not going back to the good old ways and lets all of the good work done these 20 months go to waste, and with the pressure of a sacking off and players coming back from injury, they show they can play well the new way and get a result.
 
Yes because kids could think of reasons as to why LVG's presence may be felt later when the kids he consistent ly gives chances too (injuries or not), reach to some type of success.

Only a kid would say that LVG had no influence in bringing up the likes of Muller, Alaba, Badstuber & adding players like Robben & Schweinsteiger to the mix. What's worse is then how you can say he has not left any lasting influence on Bayern in the last 5 years :nervous:

The same with Barcelona, if Guardiola is given so much praise over his integration of messi in to the powerful possession team of Barcelona- it is bloody laughable that you would not give credit to LVG for doing the same by integrating xavi and iniesta for the side.

If it wasn't for him- xavi would have been at united. Do you think a kid would remember that:confused:

He has very limited input in development of those players. Did any of them actually play more than 10-15 for him? The main reason they are so good is their talent not the fact that van Gaal gave them debuts + a few more games.

Crediting him for discovering Robben :lol: I guess Pellegrini is genius for having Ronaldo at Madrid.

It's mental to suggest we are doing terrible because he is building something. How many of these players will be here in 5 years? Maybe 5? New manager will have to tear apart this team for it to work. Martial is possibly the only one he brought who may be a part of great team. You really do not see this? It's not like we are losing games because we have a young promising team.
 
He has very limited input in development of those players. Did any of them actually play more than 10-15 for him? The main reason they are so good is their talent not the fact that van Gaal gave them debuts + a few more games.

Crediting him for discovering Robben :lol: I guess Pellegrini is genius for having Ronaldo at Madrid.

It's mental to suggest we are doing terrible because he is building something. How many of these players will be here in 5 years? Maybe 5? New manager will have to tear apart this team for it to work. Martial is possibly the only one he brought who may be a part of great team. You really do not see this? It's not like we are losing games because we have a young promising team.
like he breastfed these players
 
Blind optimism makes me sick

Said it before and I'll say it again, lvg is going to leave this club in a worse state than the one he inherited
 
Once Van Gaal is finally gone I can almost guarantee nobody will give an ounce of thought over his much coveted 'foundations' and bullshit philosophy that his dwindling delusional followers absolutely love to espouse, similar to Moyes' disciples, two years after his belated sacking and he's barely even a sidenote, just a pathetic laughing stock that most United fans would sooner forget than even acknowledge as a part of our history. There might only be two on here that are still fighting the good fight, it's entertaining at least otherwise this place would just be a collection of depressed United fans all accepting reason and logic, keep it up boys, it's the only exciting thing related to United worth watching.

That said the delusion of pretty much every argument is just hilarious, utterly manic stuff. They either make utterly no sense or contradict eachother or are simply born out of desperation. The fact that the same people championing LVG's 'clearing of the deadwood' are the very ones bemoaning how injuries have left us short on viable options is incredible. The total lack of self-awareness is astounding, I mean seriously, give up the charade, nobody could seriously try and make these two points concurrently and not realise the contradiction?

The 'foundation' claptrap is exactly that, utter shite. Should United stop purposefully trying to fail and actually get their shit together* sometime soon will anyone(aside from the deranged Van Gallers) seriously even mention LVG's name as if he had any positive role in any and all future success? How does failing miserably on every possible metric while giving a few kids a run out and selling off half your squad elevate a manager from 'utter failure' to 'foundation builder'? LVG can flail about and try and implement all the totally incompatible systems, formations and play styles he wants, he's not 'building' anything here. He's a veteran manager on his last gig with little else to prove, he aint creating a bloody dynasty. As for 'improving the club's structures' and 'modernizing our oh so awful youth and scouting setup', yeah, I hear Moysie's iPad dungeon's grand opening will be coming soon, I'm sure we'll all look back with teary eyes at all these magical developments to our decrepit ol' shell of a club.

*may not actually happen

And once again the utter nonsense of trying to paint Fergie's last few seasons as anything close to resembling the pure incompetence and failure of the last three seasons isn't even funny anymore, it's just anger-inducing at this stage. Apparently we needed the great wizard Van Gaal to truly revolutionize our equally terrible European record since the early 2000's. Didn't you know that all this started WAY back when? 2002/03 was the last really good year I reckon, yeah yeah five league titles, 1 CL(and numerous finals and semi finals) and several other cups and great performances and truly world class players and teams but seriously how did anyone NOT see this coming? We've been clinging on since forever it seems. Also, we don't count Fergie's titles in 2011 and 2013, those title winning teams (with 9 and 11 point winning margins) were utter crap, what a miracle we managed to stay outside midtable with such dross.

Van Gaal has failed, spectacularly at that and he needed to be sacked back in December, no amount of revisionism, bluster, goal post moving and nonsensical bullshit will ever change that reality, he can blame the press, Scholes, injuries, referees, the fans, Fergie, Captain Planet and Redcafe itself, doesn't matter a jot, he's the manager, he holds the ultimate responsibility, he's done absolutely nothing in his time here to warrant being anywhere near our club and the day he's sacked will be one massive relief.

Though those CL wins in 2009, 2011, 2013, 2015 and World Cups in 2010 and 2014 were pretty dank. Someone better list them on his Wiki profile. Also Thomas Muller is his son, unearthed from the sacred grounds deep within the Black Forest and raised by LVG himself to be a true god among men. Father of the century right there.
 
He has very limited input in development of those players. Did any of them actually play more than 10-15 for him? The main reason they are so good is their talent not the fact that van Gaal gave them debuts + a few more games.

Crediting him for discovering Robben :lol: I guess Pellegrini is genius for having Ronaldo at Madrid.

It's mental to suggest we are doing terrible because he is building something. How many of these players will be here in 5 years? Maybe 5? New manager will have to tear apart this team for it to work. Martial is possibly the only one he brought who may be a part of great team. You really do not see this? It's not like we are losing games because we have a young promising team.

:lol: who said he discovered Robben :lol:

Bayern Robben was different class to all his previous clubs full stop.

If it's so easy to give debuts to youngsters you have to wonder why pogba went. It isn't that easy when you got 80% fans on your back about winning this & that.
 
Once Van Gaal is finally gone I can almost guarantee nobody will give an ounce of thought over his much coveted 'foundations' and bullshit philosophy that his dwindling delusional followers absolutely love to espouse, similar to Moyes' disciples, two years after his belated sacking and he's barely even a sidenote, just a pathetic laughing stock that most United fans would sooner forget than even acknowledge as a part of our history. There might only be two on here that are still fighting the good fight, it's entertaining at least otherwise this place would just be a collection of depressed United fans all accepting reason and logic, keep it up boys, it's the only exciting thing related to United worth watching.

That said the delusion of pretty much every argument is just hilarious, utterly manic stuff. They either make utterly no sense or contradict eachother or are simply born out of desperation. The fact that the same people championing LVG's 'clearing of the deadwood' are the very ones bemoaning how injuries have left us short on viable options is incredible. The total lack of self-awareness is astounding, I mean seriously, give up the charade, nobody could seriously try and make these two points concurrently and not realise the contradiction?

The 'foundation' claptrap is exactly that, utter shite. Should United stop purposefully trying to fail and actually get their shit together* sometime soon will anyone(aside from the deranged Van Gallers) seriously even mention LVG's name as if he had any positive role in any and all future success? How does failing miserably on every possible metric while giving a few kids a run out and selling off half your squad elevate a manager from 'utter failure' to 'foundation builder'? LVG can flail about and try and implement all the totally incompatible systems, formations and play styles he wants, he's not 'building' anything here. He's a veteran manager on his last gig with little else to prove, he aint creating a bloody dynasty. As for 'improving the club's structures' and 'modernizing our oh so awful youth and scouting setup', yeah, I hear Moysie's iPad dungeon's grand opening will be coming soon, I'm sure we'll all look back with teary eyes at all these magical developments to our decrepit ol' shell of a club.

*may not actually happen

And once again the utter nonsense of trying to paint Fergie's last few seasons as anything close to resembling the pure incompetence and failure of the last three seasons isn't even funny anymore, it's just anger-inducing at this stage. Apparently we needed the great wizard Van Gaal to truly revolutionize our equally terrible European record since the early 2000's. Didn't you know that all this started WAY back when? 2002/03 was the last really good year I reckon, yeah yeah five league titles, 1 CL(and numerous finals and semi finals) and several other cups and great performances and truly world class players and teams but seriously how did anyone NOT see this coming? We've been clinging on since forever it seems. Also, we don't count Fergie's titles in 2011 and 2013, those title winning teams (with 9 and 11 point winning margins) were utter crap, what a miracle we managed to stay outside midtable with such dross.

Van Gaal has failed, spectacularly at that and he needed to be sacked back in December, no amount of revisionism, bluster, goal post moving and nonsensical bullshit will ever change that reality, he can blame the press, Scholes, injuries, referees, the fans, Fergie, Captain Planet and Redcafe itself, doesn't matter a jot, he's the manager, he holds the ultimate responsibility, he's done absolutely nothing in his time here to warrant being anywhere near our club and the day he's sacked will be one massive relief.

Though those CL wins in 2009, 2011, 2013, 2015 and World Cups in 2010 and 2014 were pretty dank. Someone better list them on his Wiki profile. Also Thomas Muller is his son, unearthed from the sacred grounds deep within the Black Forest and raised by LVG himself to be a true god among men. Father of the century right there.

Let's believe you over Muller & his special relationship with Van Gaal, Heycknes to Guardiola.

Absolute no reason to mention him.

http://www.espnfc.co.uk/bayern-muni...uller-praises-louis-van-gaal-impact-on-career

Other thing is people completely forgot about seedorf & the Ajax team.

Yeh alryt this guy is completely useless. Where do I sign the petition?
 
Let's believe you over Muller & his special relationship with Van Gaal, Heycknes to Guardiola.

Absolute no reason to mention him.

http://www.espnfc.co.uk/bayern-muni...uller-praises-louis-van-gaal-impact-on-career

Other thing is people completely forgot about seedorf & the Ajax team.

Yeh alryt this guy is completely useless. Where do I sign the petition?

His Ajax team has +20 years old, managers tend to become irrelevant at some point. It has been the case for Lippi, Capello, Beenhakker or even Sacchi. So yes LVG has been a great football mind but in 2016 he isn't one anymore.
 
:lol: who said he discovered Robben :lol:

Bayern Robben was different class to all his previous clubs full stop.

If it's so easy to give debuts to youngsters you have to wonder why pogba went. It isn't that easy when you got 80% fans on your back about winning this & that.

Robben was a great talent at Chelsea before. He kept playing very well for Bayern for years after van Gaal left and it had nothing to do with van Gaal.

Pogba was one off case, clear mistake, proves nothing.

You are crediting him with Iniesta. Do you actually know how many games Iniesta started under van Gaal? Was it one or two? Do you also credit van Gaal with Messi?
 
Crediting manager for big clubs doing very well years after doing terrible under van Gaal is really a special argument. Straws.
 
Robben was a great talent at Chelsea before. He kept playing very well for Bayern for years after van Gaal left and it had nothing to do with van Gaal.

Pogba was one off case, clear mistake, proves nothing.

You are crediting him with Iniesta. Do you actually know how many games Iniesta started under van Gaal? Was it one or two? Do you also credit van Gaal with Messi?

Why would messi have anything to do with LVG?
 
http://www.squawka.com/news/andres-iniesta-louis-van-gaal-will-always-be-special-to-me/459890

I will let iniesta do the talking.

Then obviously from LVG himself.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/may/12/louis-van-gaal-philosophy-manchester-united

Go on. Continue to think I am making this up.

The difference between me & you guys are- having observed van goal; I knew he would predominantly fail at instant gratification, fail with the media & have problems with older players.

Me knowing that has also given me a bit of patience because behind that failure lies something another manager can pick up & carry.

Mourinho is more likely to do things with martial,Memphis,lingard & co than he ever was with a partially retired RVP, vidic,evra,nani, Hernandez & co never mind cleverely & a decent-is welbeck.
 
I knew he would predominantly fail at instant gratification.

You should write a book about Van Goal. Or rather, about your own special insight into the life and times of Van Goal. And the part in bold should be the title of this opus.

Also works as a song, come to think of it:

I knew he would predominantly fail at instant gratification,
But I also knew he would totally rule at long-term education,


...and so on
 
You should write a book about Van Goal. Or rather, about your own special insight into the life and times of Van Goal. And the part in bold should be the title of this opus.

Also works as a song, come to think of it:

I knew he would predominantly fail at instant gratification,
But I also knew he would totally rule at long-term education,


...and so on

Not bad rap at all.
 
LVG has sold/released 36 players in two seasons. When you look through the list there are very few you can say should still be here. Some were getting old, some just didnt fit in, but most were never good enough yet were still here draining attention and wages. Thats my definition of deadwood.

He has said since Day 1 he is here to build for the next manager, and that is exactly what he is doing with the squad. Getting rid of the definitely not good enoughs, sending the maybes on loan, testing the youngsters, and leaving space for the next manager to bring in some stars.

I dont think LVG is doing a good job in his second season, but hes not terrible and some of the rubbish spouted on here after every loss is frustrating to endure.
How many players has he brought into the club though? He is clearly a man who can't make a team from the sum of his parts. He's not a scientist. He's a round peg, round hole manager and if his pegs don't fit the holes then he gets rid. He is absolutely unable to file off a few teeth and tape a peg down to make it work. That is not the way he builds teams and how they work and in the PL/England you need to be a savvy on your feet engineer/handyman to be successful at the bottom and middle levels. Let alone the top level, I mean look at SAF's success over 20 years. He may not have been the most tactically brilliant, pioneering and adventurous. But he knew how to get his machines going and keep them going without the whole thing collapsing.

Like I said, I didn't want to unload on you but the term "deadwood" here is being used in a general context and harsh in many cases on some of those players. Anderson (and probably Bebe) was the only dead wood player in that list of outgoings.

I will refer back to my analogy, if you're a builder doing renovations and updating parts of somebody's house and you don't utilize the proper supports, start knocking walls down here and there and the whole thing collapses in on itself you can't turn around and say "ah well at least I knocked out a few walls and got some things sorted out". I don't think the person who owns the property will be very impressed with your work.

Sometimes you have to look past the black and white of shifting the player pieces around the board for the final outcome. He's proven here spectacularly that he can't get his squad to perform and that is a big black mark on his time here at United.
 
The best philosophy would be getting this man far away from our club, his poison is seeping into all levels. Get rid and get someone in who understands what it takes to win in modern day football, playing with pace, invention, athleticism not crab football
 
It's the same with Alaba. Van Gaal gave him 3 starts in 09/10 five months after Alaba had already debuted in the nationalteam. Then totally ignored Alaba after one bad game against Frankfurt for the rest of the year and send him to the 2nd team at the start of the 10/11 season while giving Contento, another and clearly inferior academy player, the regular leftback spot. Alaba complained, forced a loan deal against van Gaal's wish in January, instantly started at Hoffenheim during his 6 months there and then became a regular starter under Heynckes the following season.

Yet, Santiago makes it sound as if van Gaal deserves massive credit for the 3 starts and 6 games as a sub, totally ignoring how he ignored him and clearly prefered Contento over him. It's as stupid as giving Klinsmann massive credit for Müller because he gave him his debut in the league and the CL.

Yeap. That's Van Gaal alright.

If Van Gaal was in charge of firing and sacking managers, he'd have fecked himself off when we lost to Stoke.