Who was worse, Moyes or Van Gaal?

[finneh]

Taking the league Champions to 7th is far worse than taking a team that just finished 7th, was devoid of all confidence and in need a a huge rebuild due to the failures of the previous Summer (of which the previous manager was culpable) to 4th and then 5th (irrespective of financial outlay).

There were a fair few positives during Van Gaal's tenure. The performances of the likes of Rashford, Smalling & Martial, signing the latter as well. Also De Gea staying, finishing 4th, winning the FA Cup, playing youth in general, trimming our squad size significantly etc

I can't think of a single positive during Moyes' tenure; possibly Januzaj but even that ended up with giving him a huge contract, which resulted in the player losing focus (although you can't blame Moyes for that).

 

[ti vu]

LVG could have spent another £200m, and I firmly believe it wouldn't have made any difference to him either.

I think of it like this. Moyes had no experience at a top level job. LVG has a number of years, successful ones at that. You can't ignore that when you compare them.

If I'm a factory manager making jumpers, I would be more disappointed in a 30 year veteran in making jumpers making 50 jumpers a day than a new jumper-maker who previously made t-shirts for 15 odd years making 40 jumpers a day. Sorry I know that made no sense!
Also when you compare the numbers instead of just looking at where they finished in the table. If you look at CL performance (Moyes did better). If you consider that Moyes took over from the greatest, LVG from one of the worst. If you factor in strength of team and quality of football. Moyes wasn't much better but overall IMO he was.

While personal opinion matters, your logic is flawed.

First of all, manager of United is not some internship job with those kind of easy going expectation. The minimum requirement is well known: top 4 thus CL qualifying. Moyes failed. LVG earned his second year. Moyes hardly improve with the money at Everton and didn't know how to spend the money at United so if LVG hardly improve by spending money so does Moyes.

Secondly, players are not machine, and management skill is not production skill. Moyes inherited an experienced squad which carried him at times. Moyes was able to piss off Rio & Vida, then Evra left with personal issue leaving LVG with a less inexperienced squad when playing in CL. So. Moyes himself was not really better in CL given human players may play a huge factor.

Thirdly, again, Moyes didn't implement a new style. His style is simply a downgrade version of SAF's style. Players have on and off days due to his inability to manage the team while using a similar style. LVG tried to implement his philosophy and forced players to get accustomed to it. It didn't work, so the style is no where perfected. Still compared no plan/ regressing plan to half done plan, the latter should be viewed as positive.

Last but not least, Moyes is as old as Mourinho even 3 years ago, he shouldn't be considered as potential coach thus he shouldn't get the job under normal circumstances. He is he definition of fraud. LVG failed to live up to his reputation. If you give. Moyes the leeway in learning the top level job, then LVG should ask for the excuse of learning the PL: Over a decade experience vs 2 years...

So all in all, giving Moyes an excuse would be equivalent of giving LVG a different excuse. Thing is LVG accepted his failure and had moved on (thus far). The other one can't still have his head sorted....

Looking at final league position is level 1 analysis though. Moyes finished 5th. But look at total points. Total goals. Goals conceded. Goal difference. Style of play. Strength of overall league. Etc.

LVG wins some but overall you'll see that LVG wasn't much better if at all.

One climbing up a slope still went a farther distance from one climbing down from the top... There you go.

 

[harms]

Van Gaal's reign had enough positive moments, actually. Big game performances, FA Cup, purple patch with 4-3-3, first games of Di Maria, press conferences, season awards speech...
Moyes had none, literally

 

[berbatrick]

Moyes by a landslide.

I was vastly more disappointed to see him sacked than LvG.

Exactly, are people forgetting we had become a joke in every possible way that season? Being absolutely thrashed by every big team, struggling against the smaller teams. No coherent plan at all: he started off with Valencia and Welbeck and traditional wingplay in a 442, got thrashed by City, switched to Januzaj and (?) Kagawa and attempted quick passing but ended up buying Mata and resorting to 90 crosses, then we reverted to basics and were thrashed by Chelsea, City and Liverpool again, finally we played a mobile playmaking 4231 and were destroyed on the flanks by Everton.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Taking the league Champions to 7th is far worse than taking a team that just finished 7th, was devoid of all confidence and in need a a huge rebuild due to the failures of the previous Summer (of which the previous manager was culpable) to 4th and then 5th (irrespective of financial outlay).

There were a fair few positives during Van Gaal's tenure. The performances of the likes of Rashford, Smalling & Martial, signing the latter as well. Also De Gea staying, finishing 4th, winning the FA Cup, playing youth in general, trimming our squad size significantly etc

I can't think of a single positive during Moyes' tenure; possibly Januzaj but even that ended up with giving him a huge contract, which resulted in the player losing focus (although you can't blame Moyes for that).

Moyesies tenure had a big positive IMO. The outcome of his tenure is that the club is unlikely to make such a stupid appointment (in terms of the person and contract length) again. At least that's the hope.

 

[Runner]

Van Gaal was more boring to watch. At least we actually tried to score goals under Moyes.

 

[Adisa]

Van Gaal was more boring to watch. At least we actually tried to score goals under Moyes.

So because we were more boring, LVG was worse?
The only entertainment we had under Moyes was because we were hiraliously bad.

 

[RedCurry]

Van Gaal won us a trophy, gave a chance to Lingard and Rashford who can potentially play for us for next 10 years. That is hell of a lot more than what Moyes did.

 

[BobbyManc]

I do think people really understate the job Moyes faced. I've said it before and I'll say it again, anyone coming into a team that has been dominated by a manager's presence for 26 years, not even accounting for that manager's ability, is going to face a monumental first season. Moyes was the wrong man for the job but everyone knew that at the time. That said, while he was bad, I believe most managers would have struggled. Look at United's 12/13 winning side, it was nothing spectacular bar van Persie playing phenomenally well. Ferguson left and Moyes did not have the ability to get the same service out of the players. He cannot be held solely accountable for the dreadful window either.

As such, comparing him with van Gaal is harsh. Moyes had to oversee the transition from Ferguson and deal with that pressure, van Gaal didn't. van Gaal spent more money. And ultimately van Gaal was much more experienced. Moyes did have a very good away record and he seemed like he struggled to adjust from managing an underdog to managing the champions, but given time he would have improved on that (improvement is relative though, it would have been hard not to ) Considering all that, as an outsider, I do not think Moyes was considerably worse than van Gaal. At least his 1000 crosses into the box strategy was more entertaining than the insipid dross van Gaal served up.

 

[whatwha]

Moyes, because he was completely out of his depth and because his time was almost without highlights (except for 1 minute when Evra scored against Bayern)

LVG has a few highlights at least, but made us play such terrible football in his second season that I was tempted to stop watching us play. He was sucking the life out of football for me, and I still haven't fully recovered.

So objectively Moyes was worse, but for me personally LVG runs him very close.

 

[ti vu]

I do think people really understate the job Moyes faced. I've said it before and I'll say it again, anyone coming into a team that has been dominated by a manager's presence for 26 years, not even accounting for that manager's ability, is going to face a monumental first season. Moyes was the wrong man for the job but everyone knew that at the time. That said, while he was bad, I believe most managers would have struggled. Look at United's 12/13 winning side, it was nothing spectacular bar van Persie playing phenomenally well. Ferguson left and Moyes did not have the ability to get the same service out of the players. He cannot be held solely accountable for the dreadful window either.

As such, comparing him with van Gaal is harsh. Moyes had to oversee the transition from Ferguson and deal with that pressure, van Gaal didn't. van Gaal spent more money. And ultimately van Gaal was much more experienced. Moyes did have a very good away record and he seemed like he struggled to adjust from managing an underdog to managing the champions, but given time he would have improved on that (improvement is relative though, it would have been hard not to ) Considering all that, as an outsider, I do not think Moyes was considerably worse than van Gaal. At least his 1000 crosses into the box strategy was more entertaining than the insipid dross van Gaal served up.

Very few if any at all expected him to challenge for the title in his first (few) seasons. CL qualifying should be enough. Thing is he failed even that. Good coach should at least achieve the bare minimum.

The spending is debated to death: the club would back Moyes with signing. Thing is he doesn't have clear acquirable target nor charisma to persuade players to join.

LVG had no experience in PL vs Moyes' over a decade experience.

 

[BobbyManc]

Very few if any at all expected him to challenge for the title in his first (few) seasons. CL qualifying should be enough. Thing is he failed even that. Good coach should at least achieve the bare minimum.

The spending is debated to death: the club would back Moyes with signing. Thing is he doesn't have clear acquirable target nor charisma to persuade players to join.

Arsenal got 4th with 79 points. I've not checked but that's got to be unusually high hasn't it? Moyes was shit, I'm not arguing that, I just think his 'shitness' deserves to be considered in a fair context.

 

[Galactico]

Moyes, of course. Under the circumstances, all he had to do was keep SAF's staff, add 1-2 reinforcements (not Fellaini) and say "same again lads". Guaranteed top 4 absolute minimum. Instead he royally f'ed things up.

After that anything LVG does is already from an f'ed up position. Although not defending him either, his approach just isn't right for United (or any team who cares about entertaining football).

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Arsenal got 4th with 79 points. I've not checked but that's got to be unusually high hasn't it? Moyes was shit, I'm not arguing that, I just think his 'shitness' deserves to be considered in a fair context.

Just 2 points less than than Leicester needed to win the league. 13 points more than United last season.

The 66 points we racked up in 2015/16 would have seen us finish 7th in 2013/14. The same league position that got Moyes sacked.

 

[Sarni]

Exactly. Moyes inherited all these problems and had far less time to solve them.

You say that Moyes did nothing to combat that but let's not forget that - for all their flaws - Fellaini and Mata were vital players for Van Gaal in achieving what little he did manage to achieve in his two years in charge.

Yep but Moyes got these two players and had no idea how to utilize them. He was buying pointlessly for the sake of buying.

 

[fellaini's barber]

With Moyes at least there was a slight chance that we would have improved under him if we bought some good players, but for some reason I felt we would never have progressed from where we were last season under LVG no matter who we bought, unless we could get Messi, Neymar or Bale who would win games despite him. With Moyes I was just dissapointed and sad with watching him get overwhelmed in a job too big for him(not his fault he got 'chosen'), but with LVG towards the end it was just pure anger whenever I saw him and our performances. His weird decisions, subs,Rooney ass kissing,lowering expectations,excuses and arrogance despite his failure just kept enraging me. So it's LVG for me, the fact that I've repressed every memory of Moyes tenure except his startled face doesn't help LVG's cause

 

[Red Dreams]

Moyes was clueless.

van Gaal went backwards in his second season. I almost suspect sabotage.

both terrible mistakes.

Mourinho was the only logical appointment.

 

[ti vu]

Arsenal got 4th with 79 points. I've not checked but that's got to be unusually high hasn't it? Moyes was shit, I'm not arguing that, I just think his 'shitness' deserves to be considered in a fair context.

Then the gap up in quality between teams in at seasons should be considered. Looking back at it, the mid table team weren't as competitive as this past season. So those 6 point game was less competitive as well. It's confirmed with the way Moyes' United record vs upper half of the table.

The mid table teams quality gap vs the top team quality is what really determines the final point tally. Last season was a freak one with top teams are so far apart while mid table teams are competitive. Moyes' United season is nearly the opposite: midtable teams quality is suspect while the top finish team was easily able to pull apart in 6 point game.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

With Moyes at least there was a slight chance that we would have improved under him if we bought some good players, but for some reason I felt we would never have progressed from where we were last season under LVG no matter who we bought, unless we could get Messi, Neymar or Bale who would win games despite him. With Moyes I was just dissapointed and sad with watching him get overwhelmed in a job too big for him(not his fault he got 'chosen'), but with LVG towards the end it was just pure anger whenever I saw him and our performances. His weird decisions, subs,Rooney ass kissing,lowering expectations,excuses and arrogance despite his failure just kept enraging me. So it's LVG for me, the fact that I've repressed every memory of Moyes tenure except his startled face doesn't help LVG's cause

Yeah, he will always be able to cling to that. It does seem incredibly unlikely but it's not the same thing as the proven certainty that Van Gaal made us an even worse team in his second season in charge. Which makes comparing the two quite difficult. Although, from a scientific perspective, the fact we have so much more data about Van Gaal's incompetence as a United manager makes it a more statistically significant observation.

 

[a_devil_inside]

Moyes didn't have a clue what to do and was out his depth, at least Van Gaal had a plan to build up the defence and keep possession.
With both managers the players are just as much to blame though.

 

[AR87]

Just 2 points less than than Leicester needed to win the league. 13 points more than United last season.

The 66 points we racked up in 2015/16 would have seen us finish 7th in 2013/14. The same league position that got Moyes sacked.

There are too many other factors involved to simply look at points totals, year-to-year and draw a direct comparison like that.

1. Neither was good, but the team didn't give up on LVG which they absolutely did under Moyes. Neither was especially well liked by the squad, but LVG still commanded some respect from the players which Moyes didn't because of things like his absurd training methods focused on maintaining defensive shape without the ball and telling Rio Ferdinand to be more like Phil Jagielka.

2. LVG had plenty of flaws, but he understood and accepted the magnitude of managing United. Moyes said ridiculous things that no manager of United should ever think, let alone say such as "we tried to make it difficult for Newcastle" and "We aspire to be like City".

3. LVG's major letdown was giving his players little room to express themselves and sticking to an extremely rigid plan. Moyes had no plan. The match at OT against City under Moyes is the most clueless tactical performances from a United side I've ever seen, not because the plan sucked, but because there was no plan.

4. LVG bought good players, but often mismanaged them grossly by trying to shoehorn them into his preferred system, formation and style of play rather than adjusting to their strengths. Moyes bought Fellaini and Mata who addressed none of our needs and did little to enhance the quality of the side. In fact LVG got much better production out of Moyes' signings than he did.

5. Under LVG we blood more youth players that look set to have a future in the first team such as Rashford, Lingard, CBJ and TFM. Under Moyes we developed Januzaj who unfortunately, for reasons unrelated to Moyes, has stagnated tremendously.

6. We didn't get embarrassed by the best teams in the PL under LVG bar the one 3-0 loss at the Emirates which was an outlier. Under Moyes we lost 3-0 at home to City and Liverpool and were thrashed away by all the big clubs bar Arsenal.

Neither was good, but LVG's failures are more relative to the expectations we had of him given his CV whereas Moyes was just an abject failure at most every aspect of his job.

 

[Pyroblazer]

I think you just need to look at how their seasons went. Moyes was just downhill nothing more and we would have continued like that. Spending money wouldn't have changed that if you have a manager like him on the helm and he didn't even realize that. All the "positives" which are mentioned are from the first half of the season, where he had luck that we were a title-winning squad, but we got worse and worse every week with him. Fair to mention that Moyes got out of an easy CL group and van Gaal failed to do, but Moyes also showed us one of our most embarrassing performances against Olympiacos in the first game and only luck and van Persie saved him, because that 3-0 in the 2nd leg was a lucky result for us.
With van Gaal it wasn't only downhill, that's why he got a 2nd season, that's why he didn't lose everyone of the team. He improved us in his first season with the best games at the end and met expectations and even in the poor 2nd season he had his worst spell in December/January and we could recover a bit. Was it then good enough? No it wasn't, but didn't fell apart and won a cup in the end. It was not good enough for United, that's why he was gone, but I never had the feeling that LvG will destroy us. A 3rd season with him would have been another season with disappointing style and us fighting around Top4, which would have been not good enough for a team like United and of course we expected more. But with Moyes I don't know where we would have ended in the 2nd or 3rd season, I never saw a "recovery" or a "turning point" with him, we were at our worst in ages in his second half of the season. The confidence was destroyed, players wanted to jump ship, every decent team had our number and destroyed us (except Wenger lol). It was really painful and we needed to sack him after a few months, because he really did that much damage, that wasn't the case under LvG. Under him it was disappointing 2 years but we will bounce back, no doubt about that, maybe even this season, that was never possible after the season we had under Moyes.

 

[Dyslexic Untied]

Moyes because of his small club mentality, inability (seemingly) to attract top players, decision to get rid of the backroom staff and the general feeling that he had no real plan despite later talking about not been given time to do the necessary changes.

Van Gaal had loads of faults, but he was interesting/crazy, seemed to actually have a plan (albeit a poor one), inspired some belief through his persona, gave loads of youth a chance and brought them through and he rejuvenated some players (Young, Smalling). Van Gaal also managed to bring some top players to the club - players who I don't think Moyes would have convinced (Di Maria being the most relevant example).

In the long run I don't think any of them would have worked out. I don't think Moyes had the standing and/or ability and van Gaal would never have given up on his boring philosophy which never would have been accepted by the United crowd.

 

[Dinghy]

Moyes was out of his depth and it was a lot more obvious that he would lose his job sooner rather than later. With Van Gaal it actually felt like he might stick around for a few more years. This, combined with the most boring style of football the world has ever seen made me dislike him a lot more. This is the guy who made vacuuming seem like a better idea, rather than watching United. Technically, Van Gaal probably did the better job, but no one has ever gotten me closer to losing interest in football then him, so he edges it.

 

[Manny]

Re- Moyes taking over after SAF- I'm convinced LVG would have had back to back top 4 finishes if he took over from SAF. I know City had their own problems, but we missed out top 4 on goal difference in Louis' second season. Moyes was massive set back in just about every area of management and Jose will still be feeling it this season.

I also think the players would have been more receptive to Louis' personality immediately after SAF without having an out of his depth Moyes in between tenures.

 

[RedPnutz]

How is this even a contest?

Moyes took us from Champions to 7th; LVG finished 4th, 5th on goal difference and won the FA Cup.

Both had money to spend but Dave dithered and made a mess of the window. Remember we paid highly for Fellaini and Mata.

LVG had a second year because he earned it. It was clear Moyes was sacked because he missed 4th; else he too would have earned another year.

People confuse boring with results. We were dreadfully dull under LVG; that's a style issue. Was Moyes less so because he had a hundred crosses into the box?

LVG had a plan that took too long to bear fruit. Moyes didn't seem to have one.

Moyes gave Rooney, a player SAF was trying to sell, a nice bumper contract. LVG gave starts to many youths; you could say he was forced by injuries but we also know it is his style to do so.

We were boring and blunt under LVG and massively frustrating. But under Moyes we were inept and a laughingstock.

You can use stats to try and prove Moyes did a better job, but the final results are indisputable. Just because Leicester won the league doesn't mean the competition was poor.

 

[EricaNo7]

Might well be a thread about this already but I can't find it. Interested in opinions about who did a worse job. I firmly believe Van Gaal did worse than Moyes, when you take into account the length of their spell in charge, the money invested in the squad and the relative strength of the teams around them.

Anyone else agree?

Anyone disagree?

Oh and for the record, I think Moyes did a very bad job. He was clearly out of his depth and was rightfully sacked.

I couldn't agree more. We were absolutely appalling at times under LVG and at some expense too

 

[berbatrick]

Look at the squads they inherited/left behind:

SAF/Moyes 2013

----------DDG----------
Rafael-Rio-Vidic-Evra
Val--Carrick-Cleverley-Kagawa
-----Rooney--RvP--------

What this squad needs:
An all-round CM to complement Carrick, and a top winger.
Long-term a passer to replace Carrick, another CB once Rio/Vidic go, and an Evra replacement.

In terms of form:
Defence: Rio-Vidic had a good season, with Evans showing great potential, Jones and Smalling raw and in reserve. Rafael had a great season but there was no real RB backup and Buttner is just terrible.
Midfield: Carrick was magnificent all season, Cleverley was below-par. The only backup was Giggs and Anderson.
Forwards: RvP was god, Rooney was struggling but trying to adjust to playing 2nd fiddle, Welbeck showed some promise, Kagawa had a slow start with some promise. Valencia's #7 season was an eyesore, and Nani had a sporadic season with some big highlights.


Moyes/LvG 2014

---------DDG--------
Rafael-Jones-Evans-Buttner
Mata--Carrick-Fellaini--Welbeck
---------Rooney--RvP-------

What this squad needs:
2 top-class new CMs, a new winger, a new LB, and 2 new CBs (one first choice, one backup) and maybe a new RB to replace Rafael. Maybe Roo or RvP to be shipped out to make room for Mata.
Long-term the frontline was ageing fast and one or both needed replacing.

In terms of form:
Defence: Rafael had a stinker and Valencia was a terrible replacement RB, Evans had regressed and Smalling and Jones were sill backup, Buttner is and will always be terrible.
Midfield: Carrick, Cleverley and Fellaini had just had probably the worst seasons of their career.
Forwards: Rooney-RvP looked completely dysfunctional as they occupied the same space. Januzaj could occasionally provide a touch of class. Welbeck as a bit stagnant but the potential was still there. Kagawa had regressed completely, Nani hadn't played at all. Mata was efficient but not especially creative.


LvG/Mourinho 2016

---------DDG--------
Val--Smalling-Blind--Shaw
------Carrick-Fellaini------
Mata-----Rooney-----Martial
----------Rashford---------

What this squad needs:
2 top attacking players, a top-class CM, a CB backup/replacement, and a solid RB.
Long term: if the short term issues (Carrick, Fellaini, Rooney) are fixed, there's no ageing problem.

In terms of form:
Defence: Smalling had matured into a top PL CB, Blind had somehow formed an effective partnership with him, Shaw had a promising start cut short by injury. Val is not a CL-standard RB but ok as a stopgap. For backups, Rojo and Jones are awful, Darmian is good tactically but poor 1v1, and CBJ showed some promise.
Midfield: Carrick and Fellaini were okish, Schneiderlin and Herrera are good options but in bad form.
Forwards: Martial and Rashford are awesome prospects who had great seasons. Mata and Rooney were below standard but generating numbers. I forgot Depay and Young exist.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

How is this even a contest?

Moyes took us from Champions to 7th; LVG finished 4th, 5th on goal difference and won the FA Cup.

Both had money to spend but Dave dithered and made a mess of the window. Remember we paid highly for Fellaini and Mata.

LVG had a second year because he earned it. It was clear Moyes was sacked because he missed 4th; else he too would have earned another year.

People confuse boring with results. We were dreadfully dull under LVG; that's a style issue. Was Moyes less so because he had a hundred crosses into the box?

LVG had a plan that took too long to bear fruit. Moyes didn't seem to have one.

Moyes gave Rooney, a player SAF was trying to sell, a nice bumper contract. LVG gave starts to many youths; you could say he was forced by injuries but we also know it is his style to do so.

We were boring and blunt under LVG and massively frustrating. But under Moyes we were inept and a laughingstock.

You can use stats to try and prove Moyes did a better job, but the final results are indisputable. Just because Leicester won the league doesn't mean the competition was poor.

With Van Gaal we were boring and had crap results. There's a bit of a myth building that Van Gaal had us playing boring, yet functional football. We were dull to watch but grinding out results when it mattered.

That didn't happen. Make no mistake, the results under Van Gaal were absolutely terrible. He ended up with ewer points per game and goal per game than we managed under Moyes. Which is fecking diabolical outcome. Even without us fans having to endure the painfully dull football we played to get these results.

 

[redsunited]

Moyes.

Moyes was clueless and indecisive. A well oiled machine, champion team played poorly and lost against every decent opponent.
LVG is a 70% manager, not a complete one. He made decisions, some poor some good. His substitutions are always poor. Blames everyone for his mistakes. His tactics played well against top sides who attacked and made mistakes. The top sides who didnt made much mistakes on the day and poor sides who didnt bother to even play were getting the better of LVG united.
Both tried to bring fans expectation as a midtable team and were not United material and was a waste of time. Both rode a horse like a buffalo.

 

[Ducklegs]

Moyes easily, as he was essentially clueless.
He had no idea what he was doing in any aspect of the Job.
LVG had a plan, and a way he wanted us to play, it was just a bad plan, and a way not suited to us or the league.

A bad plan is better than no plan.

 

[Pyroblazer]

Look at the squads they inherited/left behind:

SAF/Moyes 2013

----------DDG----------
Rafael-Rio-Vidic-Evra
Val--Carrick-Cleverley-Kagawa
-----Rooney--RvP--------

What this squad needs:
An all-round CM to complement Carrick, and a top winger.
Long-term a passer to replace Carrick, another CB once Rio/Vidic go, and an Evra replacement.

In terms of form:
Defence: Rio-Vidic had a good season, with Evans showing great potential, Jones and Smalling raw and in reserve. Rafael had a great season but there was no real RB backup and Buttner is just terrible.
Midfield: Carrick was magnificent all season, Cleverley was below-par. The only backup was Giggs and Anderson.
Forwards: RvP was god, Rooney was struggling but trying to adjust to playing 2nd fiddle, Welbeck showed some promise, Kagawa had a slow start with some promise. Valencia's #7 season was an eyesore, and Nani had a sporadic season with some big highlights.


Moyes/LvG 2014

---------DDG--------
Rafael-Jones-Evans-Buttner
Mata--Carrick-Fellaini--Welbeck
---------Rooney--RvP-------

What this squad needs:
2 top-class new CMs, a new winger, a new LB, and 2 new CBs (one first choice, one backup) and maybe a new RB to replace Rafael. Maybe Roo or RvP to be shipped out to make room for Mata.
Long-term the frontline was ageing fast and one or both needed replacing.

In terms of form:
Defence: Rafael had a stinker and Valencia was a terrible replacement RB, Evans had regressed and Smalling and Jones were sill backup, Buttner is and will always be terrible.
Midfield: Carrick, Cleverley and Fellaini had just had probably the worst seasons of their career.
Forwards: Rooney-RvP looked completely dysfunctional as they occupied the same space. Januzaj could occasionally provide a touch of class. Welbeck as a bit stagnant but the potential was still there. Kagawa had regressed completely, Nani hadn't played at all. Mata was efficient but not especially creative.


LvG/Mourinho 2016

---------DDG--------
Val--Smalling-Blind--Shaw
------Carrick-Fellaini------
Mata-----Rooney-----Martial
----------Rashford---------

What this squad needs:
2 top attacking players, a top-class CM, a CB backup/replacement, and a solid RB.
Long term: if the short term issues (Carrick, Fellaini, Rooney) are fixed, there's no ageing problem.

In terms of form:
Defence: Smalling had matured into a top PL CB, Blind had somehow formed an effective partnership with him, Shaw had a promising start cut short by injury. Val is not a CL-standard RB but ok as a stopgap. For backups, Rojo and Jones are awful, Darmian is good tactically but poor 1v1, and CBJ showed some promise.
Midfield: Carrick and Fellaini were okish, Schneiderlin and Herrera are good options but in bad form.
Forwards: Martial and Rashford are awesome prospects who had great seasons. Mata and Rooney were below standard but generating numbers. I forgot Depay and Young exist.

Yeah good post. Also shows in a good way how shit Moyes was imo and why I felt that he is dragging us into Liverpool-territory for the next decade. Van Gaal was disappointing, but I have no doubt Jose can easily take over now and with the signings he made (which weren't a whole new XI) he can challenge for the title. I had the same feeling after Fergie, our midfield needed an overhaul, but apart from that I think someone like LvG would have easily finished Top4 after taken over from Fergie. After Moyes though, it wasn't just a player with a bad season here and there, everyone except that short Januzaj cameo and the goalkeeper (which doesn't say much about the manager) was awful and I always had the feeling that even a top manager needs at least 2 summer windows to sort that mess out.

 

[RedPnutz]

With Van Gaal we were boring and had crap results. There's a bit of a myth building that Van Gaal had us playing boring, yet functional football. We were dull to watch but grinding out results when it mattered.

That didn't happen. Make no mistake, the results under Van Gaal were absolutely terrible. He ended up with ewer points per game and goal per game than we managed under Moyes. Which is fecking diabolical outcome. Even without us fans having to endure the painfully dull football we played to get these results.

The league is about relative performance and there is an upper bound of points that can be obtained overall.

If the results were more terrible under LVG, why did we finish in better positions? This suggests something about the nature of the competition. I don't know maybe collectively the average point per game dropped for most teams.

Ultimately the league isn't decided on points per game or goals per minute but total points.

If fewer points per game enabled us to remain 4th and 5th, I would think that the general quality of the teams improved with the "lesser teams" showing more relative improvement. Fewer goals per game yet we remain in competition for CL spots - I think that's a sign of functional Football. Definitely not spectacular, but functional and minimally sufficient.

 

[NinjaFletch]

With Van Gaal we were boring and had crap results. There's a bit of a myth building that Van Gaal had us playing boring, yet functional football. We were dull to watch but grinding out results when it mattered.

That didn't happen. Make no mistake, the results under Van Gaal were absolutely terrible. He ended up with ewer points per game and goal per game than we managed under Moyes. Which is fecking diabolical outcome. Even without us fans having to endure the painfully dull football we played to get these results.

Source for points per game? Doesn't match up with the stats on Page 5.

Not much in it either way admittedly. Although the same is true for goals. I think there's as much of a myth that we were better to watch under Moyes. Our games were probably more exciting under him but mostly because we had the capacity to do some really unexpectedly shit things. From an attacking sense we were still pretty bad under Moyes too.

 

[Sassy Colin]

On the one hand, I only expected Moyes to fail from the start.

On the other, I expected LvG to do better than he did.

There is no question who did the worse job though, Moyes clearly.

 

[Sylar]

As a fan, Moyes was just getting worse as the season went on and there was no hope of it being stopped. Even if he had finished the season, spent money, I dont think he would have taken us on any further. He just looked lost.

LVG at least gave us victories over City, Liverpool, etc. You had a feeling he could win big games. With Moyes, you were just looking forward to the next international break.

 

[POF]

LVG had a really difficult job and did it poorly.

Moyes had an easy job and did as badly as anyone could. With the squad he had and the winning mentality throughout the club, I still cannot believe he finished 7th.

Irrespective of who was worse, giving either of them another season would have been very damaging.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Source for points per game? Doesn't match up with the stats on Page 5.

Not much in it either way admittedly. Although the same is true for goals. I think there's as much of a myth that we were better to watch under Moyes. Our games were probably more exciting under him but mostly because we had the capacity to do some really unexpectedly shit things. From an attacking sense we were still pretty bad under Moyes too.

My bad. I keep getting the stats mixed up. It's win % and goals per game that Moyes out-performed Van Gaal. I haven't actually seen a comparison of points per game for them overall but those stats on Page 5 would give Van Gaal the edge.

I agree about the better to watch stuff. We were generally pretty crap to watch under Moyes too. There's not much in it. Although I do think the absolute dearth of goals and chances under Van Gaal was plumbing new depths. In addition to scoring less goals per game with Van Gaal in charge we made 2 fewer key passes and 3 fewer chances per game, compared to Moyes.

I'll admit the answer is not as clear-cut as I first thought. Merits to both sides of the argument. We're comparing shite with shite tbf. Which means we all end up covered in shite. Or something.

 

[Escobar]

Van Gaal's reign had enough positive moments, actually. Big game performances, FA Cup, purple patch with 4-3-3, first games of Di Maria, press conferences, season awards speech...
Moyes had none, literally

What about the Fulham game???

 

[Xign]

I'd say Moyes is worse. LVG's first season wasn't bad. But the second was a shambles. Going into a season with one 2 first choice strikers (and one was Rooney!) was a terrible decision. Thank gawd Rashford stepped up to the plate.