Both were willing victims of the 'experience' myth so prevalent in football. Hodgson's the same - whenever his Liverpool side lost at home to FC Ikea, he'd mumble about his having '30 years of experience etc etc' which apparently meant that he always knew best. Even Wenger - a far better manager - has fallen prey to this kind of delusion lately. These managers are so convinced of their abilities that even blatant failure won't change their minds or methods.
Who was worse, Moyes or Van Gaal?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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Exactly. LvG failed from November 2015 onwards (after the Leicester away game when we had a chance to go 1st), that December was just awful. But for the rest of his tenure there were always bright spots. I still think if he had bought differently last summer (a winger (not Depay) and a striker), we would have been comfortably in the top 4. I can't point out one position where if Moyes had better/more players, he would have delivered any success.
Anyway in my post I also forgot to add the coaching staff. Moyes inherited a stable successful set of coaches and left us with midtable or inexperienced mediocrity.
Clearly Moyes, LVG made a lot of mistakes but we won the FA cup and he gave a lot of young players a chance. Moyes tenure was just a back-alley abortion.
LVG got more time and much more money. I never turned off a game in the Moyes reign, we were shit but the football didn't make my eyes bleed.
That's possibly because Moyes' reign was a circus; LVG's, a library.
berbatrick said:
True.Thats true.
I think the biggest dissapointment of Van Gaal's second season was just the inevitability of all our games like you felt you were watching the same game time and time again unfolding in slow motion knowing what was going to happen (or not). Teams realised we weren't good enough to break them down if they sat back and that we could be got at on the break so they all did it.
Moyes team had the capacity to surprise us with which way they were going to be shit from week to week.
I do think if Van Gaal had got his world class attacker (or if Di Maria wasn't such a little scrotum) we would have been an awful lot better and he struggled with a system that needs quality in the final third that we just don't (or didn't) have. But then again if you need one of the world's best up top to make your system work is your system really that good in the first place?
Not sure. I'll get back to you.
Well I guess it always helps doesn't it? Bournemouth could try playing Barcelona's system but without Neymar, Suarez and Messi I doubt they'd have the same success. Thus, is Barcelona's system really that good in the first place?
NOTHING Moyes did worked out. Every decision made the club worse and we are still suffering from his legacy of failure. A charlatan.
Van Gaal was a terrible clown but got a few things right. In his first year we showed some flashes of positive play. He signed or brought through some useful players. A stubborn asshole.
Van Gaal was a terrible clown but got a few things right. In his first year we showed some flashes of positive play. He signed or brought through some useful players. A stubborn asshole.
Of course but you'd like to think that given the money he spent on them Van Gaal bought a set of attackers better than Bournemouth's.
A little unfair to Van Gaal this. He won us the FA Cup after a ridiculous amount of years, and at least we controlled games under Van Gaal, we were shit but it was controlled shit.
I'd say Moyes because in the end he just didn't have a plan on how to take the club forward. LVG had a plan and his downfall was he didn't see past it and make adjustments. Think not having a plan is a far worse thing.
Surprising that LvG got 15% of the votes. The vote spread should shut up Pogue Mahone, but it won't.
Yep. To use technical terms: Moyes was explosive diarrhoea, and Vangle was constipation.
Van Gaal for sure. He destroyed our mindset.
That's what I hate the most. Moyes applied something that just didn't work while Van Gaal was genuinely changing the way we work. Van Gaal's changes were way more damaging
Pogues are you for real? How the feck is it even close?
Never mind @Pogue Mahone when you have posters like this who are saying things like that I can see why a thread was created.
We havent played one real competitive match under Jose to see what damaging changes LVG has made but apparently thats okay with the likes of this fella. He is still going to call it.
One took champions to 7th and one won an FA cup but sure feck it.
I'd say Moyes, but not by the margin that some are indicating. You could argue that Moyes was particularly bad as he inherited a team of Champions, but I was never convinced that side was as good as SAF drove them to be. But I think I have more bitterness and frustration over Van Gaal's tenure, because I always expected things to go poorly for poor Moyes (though still not as bad as they did), while I had genuinely high hopes for the Van Gaal tenure, and I feel a little bit betrayed by that second season. However I endorse the sentiment that Moyes didn't really have a plan, while Van Gaal certainly did. It just sucked.
LvG easily. Him winning a trophy in his last game meant nothing too me. He was so negative that it made watching us a bore. Even under Moysey you didn't know what you'd get at times, it was always one step forward yet two back, whereas under LvG we just passed side-to-side.
Difficult question to answer, obviously on the face of things it was Moyes, but he inherited a poor squad. Yes he was poor very poor but given the Money and support LVG had and the time he may have done better. Although the Fellaini signing was ridiculous in every way (that had to be said).
We had a whole season to see LVG's changes. Or did you forget about that?
Should we also compare the amount of money the two managers spent? Remind me how many millions of pounds were spent for 4th and 5th place finishes?
Moyes wasn't even here for a season. He applied his style, it didn't work and he was gone. LVG was completely damaging (and has damager) us from within.
I think LvG is getting more stick because by his second season, fans had had three years of underwhelming success in all competitions and many had tuned out. Hence people saying Moyes was shite but LvG made them turn off.
I'd say I've watched 95% of all games since SAF and the Moyes tenure was worse, imo, and far more depressing even if we ended up playing some boring shite under LvG.
I disagree with a lot of this because it selectively looks at certain factors in isolation. But each to their own. In realty, I don't care who was worse. Bottom line is they both were shite and I'm glad to see the back of both of them. And I don't care who is more magnanimous in failure.
You know this how? Apart from the fundamentally different ways of playing that Jose has mentioned how has LVG damaged the team? Money isnt an issue, clubs are going to spend whoever the manager is and the money was there for dithering Dave to spend. LVG made mistakes in the market but also laid down a foundation of young talent for Jose to use.
LVG was not out of his depth but he just didn't do a great job and was not a good man-manager. Moyes was completely out of his depth and ended up frustrating a lot of our existing championship-winning players. If we continued with Moyes, we would have been fecked for years to come. I don't think he would have done half the job LVG did in overhauling the squad. LVG put together a decent team in the end (partly through luck, yes). It was lacking in top talent but solid. His mistakes are easier to fix even if his style was much harder to put up with as United fans.
Van gaal got 4th, then won the fa cup in second season, had an excellet record in big games and rivalries throughout his time here, and integrated loads of youth players. Moyes got 7th and got smashed in any big game and rivalries.
So yeah, its an easy one this. Both were shit to watch, van gaals downfall was his stubborness to change to a more attractive style of football and obsession with possession.
Moyes had basically one positive in his entire time here, and that was Januzaj. Sure he made the CL quarter finals, but he had olympiacos in the round before that which we almost fecked up in anyway. Not a huge achievement. Van gaal had plenty of good moments, just they were scattered amongst the brutally boring games where we drew 0-0 against some mediocre team.
So yeah, its an easy one this. Both were shit to watch, van gaals downfall was his stubborness to change to a more attractive style of football and obsession with possession.
Moyes had basically one positive in his entire time here, and that was Januzaj. Sure he made the CL quarter finals, but he had olympiacos in the round before that which we almost fecked up in anyway. Not a huge achievement. Van gaal had plenty of good moments, just they were scattered amongst the brutally boring games where we drew 0-0 against some mediocre team.
Van Gaal could at least talk like a United manager, even if he wouldn't allow his team to play like one. Moyes was simply out of his depth, lacking both the confidence and the aptitude for the role.
But surely you could then also say that perhaps Moyes is getting more stick because the drop was so high given the gulf in his season and SAF's last, and because expectation was lower under LVG thus the underwhelming feeling is somewhat tamed?
I'm sure plenty of people can say they've watched 95% of all games since SAF retired.
Ultimately people have different opinions. All in all, yeah, I can see the logic behind saying Moyes is worse. It's a toss up really. But no doubt the thing that sways it to LVG for me has nothing to do with tuning out, but instead because LVG SHOULD have done better and had the experience to back the expectation. Moyes was a swing and a miss, but there was absolutely no empirical evidence he would succeed. Because of this, Moyes failing is of no surprise to me. LVG failing is a surprise, and perhaps that is what sways me to LVG.
Money was there for Moyes? In case you forgot we had a new guy at the top -- Ed woody. He still wasn't adjusted to the whole thing and so wasn't Moyes. The whole transfer summer was a mess and it's understandable because of the new faces at the club.
I know what how? I saw two seasons of LVG death football. Let's assume his first seaosn was recovering from Moyes damage, what excuse did he have for the second season? We played absolute crap. Our team mentality and play jut got worse. We were further regressing under LVG. He made it seem like United is some relegation team that needs a massive overhaul to get back to the top.
Besides, even Jose Mourinho says the team needs to recover from the Van Gaalism. Why should we ignore what our current manager says?
And Money is an issue. When you spend the money on wrong players you waste resources and play the way were playing.
Signing Fellaini vs Signing Falcao, Schweinsteiger, Rojo, Angel Di Maria and selling Nani to later not replace him.
LVG has seriously damaged this club and it's too bad your hate for Moyes refuses to see that.
Didn't Moyes once say something like "we aspire to be as good as Manchester City"?, he should of been sacked there and then lol.
I agree. Moyes was poor and reached new lows but the damage inflicted by his time in charge was a fraction of what LVG's reign did. LVG has very little excuse after having 3 seasons in charge and his ridiculous 'philosophy' of play was not only boring but totally ineffective for a club of our stature.
I dont hate Moyes, im not a 14 year old girl. Jose is talking about different philosophies and even he is calling it a process. You people thin managers can just wave magic wands and everything clicks. Every managerial change leaves problems but do say LVG has damaged players is just stupid. He had a style of play he imposed, they arent lego bricks they are humans and they can change styles when coached enough. They havent been emotionally or physically scared or crippled.
Moyes had plenty of time to spend money and all he did was buy Fellaini, and for most on here unfortunately that makes him way worse than LVG. Moyes was out of his depth, at least LVG had a history of winning and success.
Nobody has been damaged, players just have to learn a new way of playing and actually is more direct and instinctual so it wont take much doing.
Disagree. There were plenty of characters in the team that Fergie left, they just didn't want to play for him.
LVGs team for me was utterly soulless. I've never seen anything like it in my football watching life. Pure and utter boredom.
With Moyes I at least turned up with some (probably false) hope that we'd get something out of a game, even when we were losing I was expecting us to nick a goal.
With LVGs teams if we went behind I knew that was it, game over. On the flip side I knew if we scored first he'd close up shop. Not the United way, and for me that makes him worse.
Regardless of the squads they both had, we all knew Moyes was out of his depth from early on, whereas with LVG we all had high hopes.. which he boringly crushed
Gaal was worse.
Moyes is/was Moyes, knew exactly what we were getting. But he came with some considerable confidence because the biggest club in the world came asking for him to take over. Moyes is a limited manager and stuck with basic formations such as 442, wing and cross play. Despite this, he done his best and didn't have any ideas other than fellaini. Fine i understand that is all he knows, and it was our fault for appointing him.
Gaal on the other hand came with a arrogance easily despised. He kept on about "his" philosophy and retraining top established players as if he was the messiah, and he genuinley believed he was that status in football. I can only imagine but he seems the character to piss people off by belittling, and isolating them if they don't follow his beliefs. He is stubborn, and does feck all except writing in his little note pad. His style of play was stupid, he didnt ever bother considering a different tactic because he had full faith in his "zombie passing" submission play.
I honestly believe he is a fraud.
Moyes is/was Moyes, knew exactly what we were getting. But he came with some considerable confidence because the biggest club in the world came asking for him to take over. Moyes is a limited manager and stuck with basic formations such as 442, wing and cross play. Despite this, he done his best and didn't have any ideas other than fellaini. Fine i understand that is all he knows, and it was our fault for appointing him.
Gaal on the other hand came with a arrogance easily despised. He kept on about "his" philosophy and retraining top established players as if he was the messiah, and he genuinley believed he was that status in football. I can only imagine but he seems the character to piss people off by belittling, and isolating them if they don't follow his beliefs. He is stubborn, and does feck all except writing in his little note pad. His style of play was stupid, he didnt ever bother considering a different tactic because he had full faith in his "zombie passing" submission play.
I honestly believe he is a fraud.
2 seasons and every coach has a philosophy and style of play. He didnt cripple or stab or starve or emotionally destroy anyone. He was just unwilling to deviate from the way he plays. You can accuse LVG of arrogance but lets stop with this damaging bullshit, every manager has his way of doing things no more so than Jose Mourinho
FFS why bother eh?
The big thing that goes in Moyes' favour is that he had a group of players that seemed to grow old over night after their last league triumph. He identified this and said we need 6 players to challenge again. The Caf laughed. It turned out true (we've probably sogned more than 10 new players since then actually).
The first thing Van Gaal did was get rid of most of these players. He then proceeded to spend lots of money but on a lot of players that haven't worked out. 2 managers later and both of Moyes' signings are still deemed to have a future here for now. I think Moyes would have got a tune out of us with more time.
Anyway, I'm happy with where we are right now. We finally seem to bet on the right track and the rest is irrelevant to me.
The first thing Van Gaal did was get rid of most of these players. He then proceeded to spend lots of money but on a lot of players that haven't worked out. 2 managers later and both of Moyes' signings are still deemed to have a future here for now. I think Moyes would have got a tune out of us with more time.
Anyway, I'm happy with where we are right now. We finally seem to bet on the right track and the rest is irrelevant to me.